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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
but could be implying that she's a lot older than we think.
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I think she is some form of manifestation pf Tokyo or the royal line, probably wish based, so s few decades aren't all that surprising.

NemoMarx said:
That's how it reads to me. She says the issue is that there would be a war if those groups had more power, but... it seems like they'd just be able to be free of needing her grief seed management and resources?

I think the threat to her personal power and ability to manage the city is the main thing, and potential conflict is probably secondary to it.
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I don't think she is making the odds of war up. Sure, there is almost certainly more going on than we know and she hasn't even said why those groups may be out for blood, but she seems to be more spinning an unfavorable situation so that the resulting solution benefits her rather than making things up entirely.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
To get back to the Chiyoda, I'm wondering if she's trying to use her hypothetical mind control powers on us now? Maybe that's why she did the clumsy "join us Sabrina" thing—she was trying to make us accept it? If she was using them, how would we know?
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Right and then she has started a war with the rest of Constellation 10/10 best logic best use of mindcontrol.

She is far to competent for such blatant and frankly stupid applications of mindcontrol.

Now, she might be trying to influence us subtly, but I haven't seen any evidence of that so far.
 
Oripa said:
I know Tokyo is a lot more political and large scale than situations we've faced in the past, but PMAS has always been about the people and I would bet on her true motivations being closer to fear and longing for security rather than an abstract desire for power and control.
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This is actually a really good point. I still think it's strange that Toshimichi appears to desire emperorhood, or whatever the word is, but that might be more a means to end rather than an intrinsic desire unto itself.

In my mind, I was imagining a scenario where her wanting to be empress was wish-backed. Like, someone wished a magical princess into existence and now Toshimichi has to be a princess because that is her core drive/identity on a magical level. Sort of like Kirika's core drive/identity is helping and being useful to Oriko.

But of course that's all speculation, which brings me to a point I actually want to make:

We've been telling ourselves that it doesn't matter what Toshimichi is, it just matters what she does and what her policies are. So figuring out her nature is a secondary consideration. But what if the two are inextricably linked? What if, in order to figure out what Toshimichi is really after and is really doing, we have to figure out what she is? I wonder if it would really be such a terrible idea to ask "hey, so I'm pretty sure you're not a meguca, what's up with that" (obviously more politely).

As Oripa said, this quest is usually about the people.
 
Torgamous said:
This was never really answered. If Meiji's problem is with Chiyoda, and Sabrina guaranteeing intervention in any wars wouldn't be enough to discourage them, then Sabrina joining Chiyoda won't materially change anything.
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Maybe. But there's also the possibility that it isn't Sabrina's offensive power they think would have an effect but her ability to distribute free cleansings and clear seeds. That is, with Sabrina in their group, they may think they can control the food supply (or at least appear to control the food supply) in a way they couldn't if she was an outside actor, even an allied one.

After all, Grief Seed distribution is already a pillar of their power.
 
Re:Recruitment - there is also the possibility that whatever mental influence they have is more of a slow and subtle insidious thing. Like hooks that dig deeper and deeper, unfelt until the hand that holds the line tugs on it hard when you become inconvenient.

Firnagzen said:
"Descendant of the Imperial line, bearer of the Three Treasures only counts for so much in this... modern time. Even mere decades ago..." she trails off with a sigh. "I trust you understand that for all my, our power-" an elegant wave, to encompass her team, "-peace is a elusive thing to pin down for long."
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If the power of Magical Girls come from their emotions, Hope and some vaguely-defined 'potential', could you perhaps empower someone with the fervent faith of millions of people upon a divinely-appointed imperial line?
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Toshimichi acts oddly, here. Surprised? Why?
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Both times she has acted surprised it was because we had acted based at least partially on input from Madoka and Hitomi. It seems likely that her semi-omniscience is limited to only the local area. And since she was only surprised after we spoke up it's not mind-reading but rather something more akin to foresight or predictive modeling. She has a script that she sees ahead of time and she's surprised when we go off the script.
 
Ompa60 said:
Both times she has acted surprised it was because we had acted based at least partially on input from Madoka and Hitomi. It seems likely that her semi-omniscience is limited to only the local area. And since she was only surprised after we spoke up it's not mind-reading but rather something more akin to foresight or predictive modeling. She has a script that she sees ahead of time and she's surprised when we go off the script.
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Might be tied to magical girls in particular, instead of distance - that would also fail to work on Madoka and Hitomi.
 
Ompa60 said:
Both times she has acted surprised it was because we had acted based at least partially on input from Madoka and Hitomi. It seems likely that her semi-omniscience is limited to only the local area. And since she was only surprised after we spoke up it's not mind-reading but rather something more akin to foresight or predictive modeling. She has a script that she sees ahead of time and she's surprised when we go off the script.
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That does give favour to the Genius Loci theory—if she can somehow perceive things within her "domain" aka Tokyo then things coming from outside of Tokyo are going to disrupt that.

I suspect Chiyoda quest has switched from "Dark Lord Sabrina" memes to "Eldritch God Sabrina" memes. :V

Godwinson said:
Or it could just be that Sabrina is being weird in the conversation in a mundane sense. Wouldn't do to ignore that as a possibility.
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Whilst I have no doubts that Sabrina is being weird, the second time it happened Mami was talking after conferring with Madoka.

We should try to provoke further reactions from her, to test this.
 
Godwinson said:
...I'm going to blame you for having just completely whiffed at grabbing my cup and smacking myself in the face, from having tried to lift a liter of sports drink that wasn't actually in my hand toward my mouth.

Also, @Firnagzen, I am officially lodging a complaint regarding whatever techno-sorcery is going on here.
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Eldritch God Sabrina
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It begins.


Also, the Seal to keep Sabrina contained are Mumihugs.
 
I think the most important thing to know is what these grievances are that would drive these other two groups to war. And in order to discover that, we need to talk to all three.

If y'all are right and Toshimichi/Chiyoda as a whole are in this mainly for power or personal gain over stability then it's entirely possible that they need to be usurped/replaced to bring peace in Tokyo. If what caused this conflict was a sufficiently criminal act (or they refuse to give up their status) then imprisonment might be needed to remove her from the board.
 
Spectral Waltz has a point. Thus far we've been given a "narrative" - most of our information has only come from one or two homogenous sources.

That said, I'm getting very high Satsuki Kiryuin or pre Sabrina'd Oriko vibes from Toshimichi, almost to the point where I would peg her as someone who does not believe anyone else can do things but them.

Also, as a stray thought...if she witches out does that mean she would effectively enclose Tokyo in a citywide witch dome? From a meta standpoint that would be the prep that Sabrina would need for large scale meguca command when the WPG rolls around.
 
Firnagzen said:
"I would, of course, be happy to offer more information about the various groups," Toshimichi says. "Of course, you might prefer to meet them later during the Council meeting, and decide for yourselves."
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It would be interesting to get Toshimichi's opinion on both the difficult groups, and any other major factions within Tokyo, with the understanding that whatever she says would be biased. It would give us an idea of what to expect when privately meeting those groups later, assuming those groups don't see us as agents of Chiyoda.

(Also I really hope I'm spelling Chiyoda correctly.)
 
Okay, I'm not at all comfortable with how much people have shifted toward preemptive spadework to 'justify' conflict with this group. It smacks of self-delusion for the sake of picking a fight because a group did not immediately prostrate themselves before our whims.
 
Orchestrator said:
Honestly, my own hypothesis is that she's a Wish made projection/friend of one of the others, so if they were to Witch I'd imagine she'd be the focal point. It's an unsubstantiated theory though so I don't really have much stock in it.
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Sayaka witched without affecting Kyousuke's hand. Witches are the soul gem hatching into a despair demon, nothing to do with the wishes once they're granted. If she requires active upkeep like our grief shenanigans then she might stop working if her progenitor witches, but she herself won't witch.
 
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