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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Huh, wonder if the group Meiji is hostile to is Sumida? Note how Kyuedo hasn't been brought up by other groups we've talked to (at least not by name I'll have to go check). Also that decades comment could be intentional bait, keep our eyes off the prize.
 
Firnagzen said:
"If I may, Miss Toshimichi?" Mami says, smiling gently, and continuing at the other girl's nod. "Is there anything we might do that would ease such problems?"

Toshimichi blinks, looking as if slapped for a split second - and then the expression fades into blank neutrality once more.

"Of course," she says briskly. "You asked for a plan we might support, not to hear my grumblings.
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Toshimichi acts oddly, here. Surprised? Why?

If I'm following the conversation correctly, we asked "can we distribute free seeds to everyone?" Toshi replied "No, people would use them for violence and we have no answer for that." We said "what can we do to help you prevent that violence?" Toshi was surprised, and then said "remove my rivals."

Is that a correct understanding of the situation?
 
Okay, so I have a solution to the "how do we talk about the Witchbomb with everyone here" problem. Notes!

Writing a note and passing it back and forth with Toshimichi will let us not be separated from the group so no mind control red flags, the fact that communication is happening is obvious, and our team members know there are potentially sensitive infohazards so they'll understand when we do this and let them know whether the problems in Tokyo are or are not relevant to those infohazards. Madoka and Hitmoi can't potentially overhear witchobomb related stuff if we are communicating it exclusively through passed notes. Our Grief can serve as an easily destructible medium for writing such notes on if we or they don't have any convenient paper on hand.
 
Torgamous said:
This was never really answered. If Meiji's problem is with Chiyoda, and Sabrina guaranteeing intervention in any wars wouldn't be enough to discourage them, then Sabrina joining Chiyoda won't materially change anything.
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Well the obvious answer is that Sabrina joining Chiyoda was never really about discouraging the other groups then, right?
 
She has people regularly cycle into her group, and is suspected to have mind related powers. If we joined, we'd be alone sooner or later. Its possibly how they do whatever it is, and may tie into her strings.

EDIT: A question is when the last time the problem groups have allowed one of their number to join, or if they have been doing post chiyoda duty de-mind controling/tracking.
 
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Firnagzen said:
"If those two groups were not in the consideration at all, then we would have a clear path forward," Toshimichi says with a hint of a smile.
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Firnagzen said:
"That's a good question, Sayaka," Madoka says. "Why would it be the easiest if Sabrina were part of their group?"
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So, it seems to me that something is not quite right here. There's the "just get rid of my enemies and everything will be alright" that everyone pointed out already, but there's also that really strange "ah if only you could join our team." Now, that's a really strange thing to say, and I'd bet anything there's some weird magical interaction going on between Toshimichi and her teammates, something related to Toshimichi's nature. But at the very least, it would boost Toshimichi's power if she controlled a group with Sabrina in it. Either way, between the two of these things...

Well, the picture it paints to me is that Toshimichi really wants power. It makes me think that, if she really wants to maintain peace, that want may be incidental to her desire to... basically be the Empress of Tokyo. Which would mean she won't accept a peace where she isn't in charge.

Firnagzen said:
She exhales slowly, and when she speaks again, there's a bitterness in the way her lips twist, her shoulders slumping.

"Descendant of the Imperial line, bearer of the Three Treasures only counts for so much in this... modern time. Even mere decades ago..." she trails off with a sigh.
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This bit right here... it seems like she's really longing for some absolute power, even bitter about the fact that she doesn't have it. And considering also the way she first presented herself to us, as more powerful than she truly is. Considering how she likes to basically play Empress already...

I'm not saying this is definitely the case, maybe Toshimichi has justifications for everything, but it's a theory that won't leave my mind alone.

Thoughts?
 
That's how it reads to me. She says the issue is that there would be a war if those groups had more power, but... it seems like they'd just be able to be free of needing her grief seed management and resources?

I think the threat to her personal power and ability to manage the city is the main thing, and potential conflict is probably secondary to it.
 
Torgamous said:
Which leaves the question of what it was about.
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My read is it was a negotiating tactic. Present an option that you know the other side will find completely unacceptable so that the offer you make next sounds a lot more reasonable by comparison. She was using our emotional reaction to not wanting to leave Mami and our friends in Mitakihara to make us more agreeable to her "eliminate my enemies" suggestion.

Another possibility is her powers are like Kazumi 2.0's powers, and they're somehow tied in with her team members. Thus having Sabrina on her team would actually provide her personally with additional powers. Imagine her with access to Sabrina's grief manipulating abilities with the magic strings we've noticed serving as range extension similar to the ribbon network we've used with Mami. Would also work if membership on the team is simply a requirement for giving us access to that infrastructure even if she isn't personally getting the powerup from it.
 
Misty Raven-chan said:
So, it seems to me that something is not quite right here. There's the "just get rid of my enemies and everything will be alright" that everyone pointed out already, but there's also that really strange "ah if only you could join our team." Now, that's a really strange thing to say, and I'd bet anything there's some weird magical interaction going on between Toshimichi and her teammates, something related to Toshimichi's nature. But at the very least, it would boost Toshimichi's power if she controlled a group with Sabrina in it. Either way, between the two of these things...

Well, the picture it paints to me is that Toshimichi really wants power. It makes me think that, if she really wants to maintain peace, that want may be incidental to her desire to... basically be the Empress of Tokyo. Which would mean she won't accept a peace where she isn't in charge.



This bit right here... it seems like she's really longing for some absolute power, even bitter about the fact that she doesn't have it. And considering also the way she first presented herself to us, as more powerful than she truly is. Considering how she likes to basically play Empress already...

I'm not saying this is definitely the case, maybe Toshimichi has justifications for everything, but it's a theory that won't leave my mind alone.

Thoughts?
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To be fair, if you were hopelessly trapped in political tight rope walking with barely veiled threats of violent conflict for so long, you'd probably want the power to act unilaterally too.
 
I don't know why the thought popped into my head, or how relevant it is, but...

Okay, so we've talked to Mr House, let's hear what the others have to say.
 
Does she know she's using starvation and the threat of starvation as a method of control? Kyubey doesn't spread that info around, telling Magical Girls that if their Soul Gems go completely black "you won't be able to use your magic as you wish to", and from his prospective I could see a really delicious grief spiral triggered by the members of the Chiyoda group learning that's what they've been doing for years in the name of peace and stability.

It's been mentioned that Kyubey is okay mind wiping humans, and if Toshimichi's the face of their operation, the one they're usually sending out to places where one might learn the witchbomb incidentally, and if she's vulnerable to Kyubey's mind wipes, he could set up a really nasty situation by controling what information does and does not get through.

I really think we need to get the Infohazard status of Toshimichi, Chiyoda, and the various Tokyo groups in general figured out and make sure they know our Infohazards status. Even if that doesn't turn out to be what's going on, I will feel a lot more confident going forward if we can eliminate the possibility. I do not want to be the one to trigger one of the traps Kyubey's been setting up so the smug rat can cheerfully congradulate and thank us.
 
Control, I think she wants control.

Sure, she seems to be acting in peoples best interests, she's no tyrant (... that we know off), but she does seem to believe she's the one to make decisions over other peoples lives, she's the one with the responsibility of ruling. Earlier, I said she presented herself as an Empress, but is actually a chairman, and I think she knows it.

I think having Sabrina in her team is just another level of control for her, another leverage she can use to force her way.

I've noticed she seems to be the only one speaking, the other members of her team are not really contributing much at all. What are their opinions on all of this? Or are they all in agreement with Toshi?
 
If control is her theme, that does make her a good parallel/foil/counterpart/whatever to Sabrina. We've had our issues with control freakage before.
 
My read on everyone else staying quiet is an effort to present a united front. Toshi acting as their chosen spokesperson with them probably consulting with her telepathically the same as we are with our team.
 
Well, we can check this, and I'm pretty sure in a polite/friendly enough manner that it won't sour negotiations. Ask her what she'd do if her stated goal was fulfilled, if Tokyo no longer needed her help to stay peaceful. If she bristles at the thought it means she's in this for the power, not helping people, and we probably wouldn't be able to come to an agreement. I'm pretty sure there's a tactful way to put this, so thoughts?
 
Jonen C said:
I don't know why the thought popped into my head, or how relevant it is, but...

Okay, so we've talked to Mr House, let's hear what the others have to say.
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I'm not a fan of that analogy, but solely because I detest all the major factions in Fallout: New Vegas and the game doesn't provide a mechanism for building a viable one that I wouldn't detest. :p
 
Wanting power isn't unusual or too concerning by itself. Sabrina wished for phenomenal cosmic powers that would frankly be terrifying if she wasn't so dependable (mostly). What's important is why she wants power and what she will use it for, both of which are unclear right now. I see control being brought up a lot, but that doesn't square with the way Chiyoda and Toshimichi currently operate in the council. Meguca boyfriend described the council as a conflict resolution tool rather than a government. Toshimichi doesn't seem to control much in the council other than being influential in disputes. It's possible that she's not actually powerful enough to take full control, and that's why she wants Sabrina with her, but I am not ready to make this leap since we don't really know her. This thread has a habit of jumping to conclusions, especially on group relations. I know it comes from wanting to help others without wasting time, but helping people on a large scale is hard and requires more than just good intentions and power. As Angrygenius said, we absolutely can't pull a Sendai here, even at the cost of slowing down to gather better info and get to know these groups better. My suggested course of action would be to ask Toshimichi what is the most amount of cleansing help they would be able to easily accept right now (grief seed exchange, cleansing visits, partial clear seeds, etc) and try to implement that immediately. Then work out a way to visit the problem groups so that we can get a better picture of the situation and maybe resolve it before moving on to full scale system breaking. Freeing meguca from grief seed scarcity may be our explicit ultimate goal, but our true goal is to help and accidentally sparking a war in Tokyo is not helping.

Since I mentioned that I don't really buy the 'she just wants power' explanation for Toshimichi's answers, I am going to throw out a theory of my own: Toshimichi is scared of Meiji and Kyuedo, and more than just as political rivals. She always frames it as "they have lasting grievances" and they "have a grudge against us [Chiyoda]", but I suspect that Toshimichi has more of personal stake in this if she is willing to single those groups out specifically. I think those two groups are more than just political rivals, especially since the council isn't really about governance or control anyways. Given that there is clearly something weird going on with Toshimichi personally and how eager the group as a whole seems to be about getting their hands on Sabrina (figuratively), I think she has a personal secret or weakness (on the lines of 'she's a magical construct that requires enormous amounts of grief seeds to sustain') that those two groups know about and might act on. I think she's scared that those two groups will attack her or act against her if given unlimited magic. Personal fear better explains some of the oddities in Chiyoda's behavior than just wanting power or control for it's own sake IMO. If she really wanted control and power, how would Sabrina joining her group help? There is no way she could make Sabrina do what she wants by force and I doubt she doesn't realize that Sabrina is very stubborn on things she cares about. This slip makes more sense if what she actually wants is 24/7 protection from potential attacks on her person and/or constant access to grief control (I just like the living spell idea, forgive me). I know Tokyo is a lot more political and large scale than situations we've faced in the past, but PMAS has always been about the people and I would bet on her true motivations being closer to fear and longing for security rather than an abstract desire for power and control.
 
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Firnagzen said:
"To speak in plain terms, the easiest course of action is one that I suspect I cannot ask of you: it would be for you to join us as part of our group," she says after a moment. "Perhaps one or two of your friends could accompany you, but you'd be expected to live here, in Tokyo. It would grant the rest of the Council a measure more trust in you."
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Sell out Sabrina. Join the system. It's the only way to affect change.~

Firnagzen said:
"Testing you is the obvious answer," Hitomi adds. "Too obvious. It was... gauche. Amateurish... pointed, in many ways. She seems too practiced with politics to have made such a mistake by accident alone."

"None of her teammates looked surprised," you note.
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An intentional mistake perhaps? Chiyoda does have a theatrical streak and this whole meeting is taking place in converted lecture theater, I wonder...

Firnagzen said:
"That hope would be dashed within the month, if you handed out your Clear Seeds in Tokyo," Toshimichi says. She sounds regretful about it, if you had to guess, and looks it too. Something about the set of her jaw, perhaps. "Perhaps if you left one with us, for use at our discretion, but I doubt that would be satisfactory."
...
"Tokyo is one of the densest urban areas in the world," Toshimichi says. "And even so, we are near the breaking limit of the number of magical girls we can support. It is on my authority and power that we manage the distribution of Grief Seeds and hunting, and that we do it well is one of the primary reasons we've managed to keep the Council together."
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Keep us in power, Sabrina. Change is only possible from the inside.~

Firnagzen said:
"Descendant of the Imperial line, bearer of the Three Treasures only counts for so much in this... modern time. Even mere decades ago..." she trails off with a sigh. "I trust you understand that for all my, our power-" an elegant wave, to encompass her team, "-peace is a elusive thing to pin down for long."
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Again with her being messy! I'm convinced she's trying to throw us off! The length of time the Council has operated was one of the big questions about it! I'd bet that they're trying to pretend that it's ancient to give it de facto legitimacy. Probably using memory control and outside turn over to shore it up.

Firnagzen said:
"I think we should probe for specifics," Mami murmurs to you.

"Concur," Madoka says crisply. "That was a good question, Miss Nakano. It revealed a lot."

"Go for it, then," you say.

"If I may, Miss Toshimichi?" Mami says, smiling gently, and continuing at the other girl's nod. "Is there anything we might do that would ease such problems?"

Toshimichi blinks, looking as if slapped for a split second - and then the expression fades into blank neutrality once more.
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Once again a surprise from the peanut gallery. I'm proud of us not getting baited.

Firnagzen said:
"Of course," she says briskly. "You asked for a plan we might support, not to hear my grumblings. The answer, simply, is that I can see none. There are two groups at the Council who would cause trouble, if given a free hand with magic. It's not, in our estimation, a question of if they would start a fight - it's a question of timing. They must, in some way, be neutralized."

"One of them would be the Meiji group, correct?" you say, deciding not to comment on the phrasing just yet. 'Neutralize', hah.

"Correct," Toshimichi says. Her gaze lingers on you for a long moment before she continues. "The other would be the Kyuedo group."

"The... river?" you say, your brow wrinkling as you try to place the name.

"Indeed," Toshimichi says. "They named themselves for it, just as the Meiji group named themselves for the shrine. In any case, I would consider those two the largest obstacles. The rest of the groups... some may be just as vehemently opposed to your offer, but they are less prone to violence. They can be managed."

She tucks her hands into her sleeves.

"As it is, both of them have lasting grievances against other groups. Meiji in particular bears a grudge against us, in addition to the Tower group - the latter are based near Tokyo Tower, and they share a border," Toshimichi says. "They are both strong groups, and should things erupt into violence, the damage will not be contained."
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*me googling a map of Tokyo*

I'll be back shortly with a map and an overview of each group!

But in short, I think Toshimichi's messiness is mostly feigned and whatever info she has doesn't include Madoka and Hitomi in it's modelling. Also Oriko is also watching and we should check in on her thoughts.
 
Godwinson said:
I'm not a fan of that analogy, but solely because I detest all the major factions in Fallout: New Vegas and the game doesn't provide a mechanism for building a viable one that I wouldn't detest. :p
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That's kinda the point—all the factions are deeply flawed. Mr House is an autocrat who made Vegas stable because it profits him personally. The NCR are idealistic, but suffer from corruption and lack the resources to apply those ideals to real world situations. The Legion are monsters. And the Courier is just one person with some ad-hoc alliances and an army of robots, and is unable to exert their power very far. There's no real way to "fix" Vegas at all, it's a broken world and the resources and political will to build a new one don't exist.


To get back to the Chiyoda, I'm wondering if she's trying to use her hypothetical mind control powers on us now? Maybe that's why she did the clumsy "join us Sabrina" thing—she was trying to make us accept it? If she was using them, how would we know?
 
Oripa said:
My suggested course of action would be to ask Toshimichi what is the most amount of cleansing help they would be able to easily accept right now (grief seed exchange, cleansing visits, partial clear seeds, etc) and try to implement that immediately. Then work out a way to visit the problem groups so that we can get a better picture of the situation and maybe resolve it before moving on to full scale system breaking.
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I think that's a very reasonable suggestion we should make. Figure out how much assistance Toshimichi thinks we can get away with giving without everything exploding on her. She's proposed a single Clear Seed in her group's possession, but does she think multiple partially Clear Seeds in the various groups' hands will trigger the same doomsday scenario she's envisioning? We could provide partially Clear Seeds to all the groups in one batch, then gradually increase their capacity over time, giving the situation time to acclimate to the new status quo, with the eventual goal of getting everyone to post-scarcity in small steps.
 
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