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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Okay so I finally got done with coming up with something that isn't a draft.

Props to Redshirt.

[X] Hugs and basic follow-ups.
-[X] Explain how Walpurgisnacht's nature as a "narrative" witch affects both interactions with her and things more generally.
--[X] Madoka is the only person who has ever killed it and she does it via trope: "the self-sacrificing pure-hearted heroine." The intent, action, and paid cost (her life) are what have made this possible in the past, not some special power.
---[X] We have better options, because Mitakihara doesn't have to be a tragedy.


[x] Kyubey's claim to "not lie" is bullshit by any human definition and only at all accurate by the most tortured form of technicality. It intentionally misleads, phrases things in incredibly misleading ways to solicit the reactions it wants, and misinterprets questions to provide leading answers.
-[x] It's willing to try to kill people with words. You generally treat anything it says as an attack, and wish they would also -- Homura especially. If Kyubey had wanted to, it absolutely could have used the information you just gave her about Walpurgisnacht, twisted it in a way to suggest she would never be able to kill it, and used that to hurt her.


I'm really quite happy with this. We get to use a concrete example to demonstrate to Homura that she's not immune to QB conjuring some kind of BS to hurt her with. It's great. It's everything we could want as far as that method of mitigating the potentialbomb goes.




RE: the alternatives suggested by AngryGenius and Nerevar.

AngryGenius' alteration, which offers the WPN explanation to Homura instead of just going for it, runs into a simple problem:

There is no world where, when offered an explanation of how WPN can be killed, Homura doesn't want it given to her immediately.

That means that either making the offer is pointless, or we're making the offer in such a way as to deflect her interest for the time being in which case we shouldn't make it in the first place.

The Nerevar alternative is... uh... Hm. I don't mind the part about Homura possibly having information that we don't but I do mind the part where we aren't just going to share here. As I summarized earlier,

Kaizuki said:
So... Let me summarize.

You're Akemi Homura. You just watched Kaname Madoka kill Walpurgisnacht all by her lonesome.

A hundred loops later you still can't do that.

Madoka never seemed all that strong. She was Mami's kouhai, not an incredible warrior.

So what does it mean that you're still weaker than her, after all this time?

And cut, break that by revealing that it's not strength that's been letting Madoka best Walpurgisnacht (and just carefully omit that at this point she could best Walpurgisnacht on strength alone because we're not revealing the potentialbomb).
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Kaizuki said:
Okay so I finally got done with coming up with something that isn't a draft.

Props to Redshirt.

[X] Hugs and basic follow-ups.
-[X] Explain how Walpurgisnacht's nature as a "narrative" witch affects both interactions with her and things more generally.
--[X] Madoka is the only person who has ever killed it and she does it via trope: "the self-sacrificing pure-hearted heroine." The intent, action, and paid cost (her life) are what have made this possible in the past, not some special power.
---[X] We have better options, because Mitakihara doesn't have to be a tragedy.


[x] Kyubey's claim to "not lie" is bullshit by any human definition and only at all accurate by the most tortured form of technicality. It intentionally misleads, phrases things in incredibly misleading ways to solicit the reactions it wants, and misinterprets questions to provide leading answers.
-[x] It's willing to try to kill people with words. You generally treat anything it says as an attack, and wish they would also -- Homura especially. If Kyubey had wanted to, it absolutely could have used the information you just gave her about Walpurgisnacht, twisted it in a way to suggest she would never be able to kill it, and used that to hurt her.


I'm really quite happy with this. We get to use a concrete example to demonstrate to Homura that she's not immune to QB conjuring some kind of BS to hurt her with. It's great. It's everything we could want as far as that method of mitigating the potentialbomb goes.




RE: the alternatives suggested by AngryGenius and Nerevar.

AngryGenius' alteration, which offers the WPN explanation to Homura instead of just going for it, runs into a simple problem:

There is no world where, when offered an explanation of how WPN can be killed, Homura doesn't want it given to her immediately.

That means that either making the offer is pointless, or we're making the offer in such a way as to deflect her interest for the time being in which case we shouldn't make it in the first place.

The Nerevar alternative is... uh... Hm. I don't mind the part about Homura possibly having information that we don't but I do mind the part where we aren't just going to share here. As I summarized earlier,
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This looks like a great plan.

Though, I have to ask: What about the concern that Homura will put all the stuff we've just talked about as a secondary thing, and instead focuses on the thing about Walpurgisnacht as the main takeaway from our talk?

Because , since that concern has been brought up, It is actually a somewhat valid point that I would like to see addressed at some point.

EDIT: also, there's a reason i wrote it the way I did, I wrote it as "information we've been sitting on", not "information on Walpurgisnacht". Of course she'd ask to hear it if we said it was about Walpy straight away.
 
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Angrygenius said:
This looks like a great plan.

Though, I have to ask: What about the concern that Homura will put all the stuff we've just talked about as a secondary thing, and instead focuses on the thing about Walpurgisnacht as the main takeaway from our talk?

Because , since that concern has been brought up, It is actually a somewhat valid point that I would like to see addressed at some point.
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This is absolutely fair. The intent here is that Homura is part of Mitakihara and so everything she does that solves her personal problems and makes Mitakihara less tragic directly contributes to our martial effort against Walpurgisnacht. I understand that's not written directly into the vote. Maybe --

Oooooh.

[X] Hugs and basic follow-ups.
-[X] Explain how Walpurgisnacht's nature as a "narrative" witch affects both interactions with her and things more generally.
--[X] Madoka is the only person who has ever killed it and she does it via trope: "the self-sacrificing pure-hearted heroine." The intent, action, and paid cost (her life) are what have made this possible in the past, not some special power.
---[X] We have better options, because Mitakihara doesn't have to be a tragedy.
----[X] Everything Homura does to fix her own personal problems contributes to beating Walpurgisnacht because of how that works.

[x] Kyubey's claim to "not lie" is bullshit by any human definition and only at all accurate by the most tortured form of technicality. It intentionally misleads, phrases things in incredibly misleading ways to solicit the reactions it wants, and misinterprets questions to provide leading answers.
-[x] It's willing to try to kill people with words. You generally treat anything it says as an attack, and wish they would also -- Homura especially. If Kyubey had wanted to, it absolutely could have used the information you just gave her about Walpurgisnacht, twisted it in a way to suggest she would never be able to kill it, and used that to hurt her.

I like this modification a lot.
 
Kaizuki said:
This is absolutely fair. The intent here is that Homura is part of Mitakihara and so everything she does that solves her personal problems and makes Mitakihara less tragic directly contributes to our martial effort against Walpurgisnacht. I understand that's not written directly into the vote. Maybe --

Oooooh.

[X] Hugs and basic follow-ups.
-[X] Explain how Walpurgisnacht's nature as a "narrative" witch affects both interactions with her and things more generally.
--[X] Madoka is the only person who has ever killed it and she does it via trope: "the self-sacrificing pure-hearted heroine." The intent, action, and paid cost (her life) are what have made this possible in the past, not some special power.
---[X] We have better options, because Mitakihara doesn't have to be a tragedy.
----[X] Everything Homura does to fix her own personal problems contributes to beating Walpurgisnacht because of how that works.

[x] Kyubey's claim to "not lie" is bullshit by any human definition and only at all accurate by the most tortured form of technicality. It intentionally misleads, phrases things in incredibly misleading ways to solicit the reactions it wants, and misinterprets questions to provide leading answers.
-[x] It's willing to try to kill people with words. You generally treat anything it says as an attack, and wish they would also -- Homura especially. If Kyubey had wanted to, it absolutely could have used the information you just gave her about Walpurgisnacht, twisted it in a way to suggest she would never be able to kill it, and used that to hurt her.

I like this modification a lot.
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Still a bit worried she'll still do it, but at least this addresses the issue somewhat, sooo...

Fuck it.

[X] Kaizuki

(I get credit for having you think of that, my lawyer will send the details soon :V )
 
Angrygenius said:
Still a bit worried she'll still do it, but at least this addresses the issue somewhat, sooo...
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Honestly?

There are a bunch of rough edges laying around with all of this stuff rn. There really are. But we have time to smooth those out in the coming days IC and taking care of the major stuff now will let us do that more effectively.

We do the major stuff. We see what happens. We smooth out the results over time and work on discovering more major actions to take.
 
Firnagzen said:
@Redshirt Army Ok, that's excellent, I laughed.

@Kaizuki So, since you appear to have the vote, I'm posing this question to you and the thread at large: Do you want to end of therapy session and/or the night with this vote? I'm inclined to, but I'm putting it to the thread at large to decide.
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I mean, besides what's in the current vote, does anything else really need to be said right now?

I'm fine with this vote ending the session (assuming the next post carries the entire vote through)
 
Firnagzen said:
@Redshirt Army Ok, that's excellent, I laughed.

@Kaizuki So, since you appear to have the vote, I'm posing this question to you and the thread at large: Do you want to end of therapy session and/or the night with this vote? I'm inclined to, but I'm putting it to the thread at large to decide.
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End of therapy session, yes, end of night, no - at least that's my take, since there's a couple of housekeeping things I'd like Sabrina to do before she sleeps. (Although I'd be okay with them happening "off-screen", as it were, if you just want to get to tomorrow.)

((In particular, I would like Sabrina to contact Ishinomaki and confirm that she's doing her weekly refresh of their grief seeds tomorrow morning, and contact the University Group to see what the status of them talking to the Tome group is. And to book that restaurant dinner with Mami for tomorrow once we're back from Tokyo.))
 
[X] Kaizuki

Redshirt Army said:
End of therapy session, yes, end of night, no - at least that's my take, since there's a couple of housekeeping things I'd like Sabrina to do before she sleeps. (Although I'd be okay with them happening "off-screen", as it were, if you just want to get to tomorrow.)

((In particular, I would like Sabrina to contact Ishinomaki and confirm that she's doing her weekly refresh of their grief seeds tomorrow morning, and contact the University Group to see what the status of them talking to the Tome group is. And to book that restaurant dinner with Mami for tomorrow once we're back from Tokyo.))
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and i'm in general agreement with this
 
That I can get beind 100%. Awesome job guys.

[X] Kaizuki

Redshirt Army said:
End of therapy session, yes, end of night, no - at least that's my take, since there's a couple of housekeeping things I'd like Sabrina to do before she sleeps. (Although I'd be okay with them happening "off-screen", as it were, if you just want to get to tomorrow.)

((In particular, I would like Sabrina to contact Ishinomaki and confirm that she's doing her weekly refresh of their grief seeds tomorrow morning, and contact the University Group to see what the status of them talking to the Tome group is. And to book that restaurant dinner with Mami for tomorrow once we're back from Tokyo.))
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Agreed. This seems like a solid itinerary.
 
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If Teenage Misreable Meguca Team isn't mentioned sometime within the next 5 updates, I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter to...

(shuffles cards)

...Marco Rubio?

(Sabrina contacts her local congressman)

(No I don't know what that was about either)
 
Angrygenius said:
If Teenage Misreable Meguca Team isn't mentioned sometime within the next 5 updates, I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter to...

(shuffles cards)

...Marco Rubio?

(Sabrina contacts her local congressman)

(No I don't know what that was about either)
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No, it doesn't scan. You've got to maintain the rhythm. DAdaDAdaDAdaDAda. Teenage Magic Trauma Victims, Teenage Depressed Undead Magi, Child Soldiers Hunting Witches, Teenagers With PTSD.
 
Firnagzen said:
@Redshirt Army Ok, that's excellent, I laughed.

@Kaizuki So, since you appear to have the vote, I'm posing this question to you and the thread at large: Do you want to end of therapy session and/or the night with this vote? I'm inclined to, but I'm putting it to the thread at large to decide.
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OH

I FELL ASLEEP CHECKED OUT AFTER WRITING THE VOTE

ok so end of therapy here forsure

night idk i think we have administrative stuff to do for a post and then bedtime ask @Redshirt Army


Nerevar said:
That I can get beind 100%. Awesome job guys.

[X] Kaizuki
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THANKS
 
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[X] Kaizuki

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It's. It's about the people right? Kyoko's wish was that her father's words would be listened to? Believed?

So. I think it's important to ask:
What did Kyoko's father preach?

PMMM likes to make as complex/tragic a situation as can be had. Not simple and straightforward gross/terrible, but tragic in the sense that you can see a path working out but also why the flaws all add up to failure and crushing despair.

I think this is an important part of Kyoko's character that could be explored. She was a preacher's daughter who wished for her father to be listened to. That could be as simple as "I want my dad to succeed at his job (convincing others)" but-

constantly
constantly
Kyoko brings up that people are people and people? People are shitty. She is shitty. She's less shitty than abusers and murderers and the worst of the scum, but she feels like she damned her whole family when she made that deal with the devil.

Her father told her that she had damned them all when she sold her soul to the devil. Told her that she deserved to be damned for making that deal.
And her wish was that her father's words would be listened to, right?
. . .
A thought.

Oriko has gone through an intense soul-inverting re-making of her wish and powers. It was incredibly draining, debilitating, and painful to go through. It left her looking corpselike, and definitely unable to fend for herself.
. . .
Kyoko hasn't rejected her wish has she.

Her father told her she traded her soul in a deal with the devil and she was personally responsible for the damnation of herself and her family and she deserved it
and Kyoko wished for her father's words to be listened to / believed. So she believes it.

So let's operate under:
1. Kyoko hasn't rejected her wish
2. Her father preached some variation of "Hope is the greatest good, Despair the evil. What matters is how you treat others, not what scripture you follow"
3. Her father blamed her along some line of "You gave into Despair and sold your soul to the Devil. Now we are all damned and it is your fault"

Kyoko, it follows, would still believe in her father's words. Both the scripture and the damnation.

In almost any other situation the murder-suicide of a family and wish-empowered condemnation of the sole survivor should make that survivor crack under Despair right? Like. Who the hell doesn't give in to despair in that situation?

Well.
A preacher's daughter who has an equal Wish-Empowered counterforce bolstering her up. The good words of a true believer.

"Hope is the greatest good, Despair the greatest evil, and what matters is how you treat others" approximately

Witches kill people. When Witches are killed, they drop a Grief Seed filled with Grief. It can cleanse the Grief from the souls of sinners who sold their souls to the Devil.

Hunting Witches is almost Atonement. It's at the least a strictly-good-act.
She may think she's a sinner damned for her failures, but she can do good still. She can save lives, and do good for others, even if (she feels) she deserves to be damned.

Does she believe she's the worst? Hell no. But she has only recently believed in her ability to inter-socially do good again, beyond committing violence to Witches and teaching others to commit better violence to Witches.

I believe that something important transpired between her and miss Nanako. I believe that the advice we were immediately given afterwards? "Each individual needs a different approach" ? I believe that's something Kyoko would have learned as a preacher's daughter in the tragic case her father was good at being a preacher and had a good doctrine, but tragically neglected earthly concerns to the point of abuse and collapse.

Also:
You want some theatrical finish against the Theatrical Witch of Helplessness Walpurgisnacht?
The Spear of Longinus is a holy relic of the legionnaire who confirmed Christ's death by inflicting the final "holy wound" by piercing his spear through Christ's chest. Longinus, instead of being reviled for his action, is instead known for his life as a Christian after that point and the good he achieved after this major formative moment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TL;DR
Kyoko's Wish should still be in effect, both the preaching she would have heard before he found out and the condemnation.
I think it's possible for her to (?continue to?) live a life as a Guilty-Christian. Feeling like a scumbagsinner, but willing to achieve what good she can while she's here.

But uh. I think we should look into what her father's doctrine was.

Kyoko deserves to have the intent of her wish, the belief in her father's doctrine, to be fulfilled (if she believes it could be good). She doesn't deserve her flawed father's spiteful condemnation looming above her like a sword of Damocles the rest of her life.

I know a way to spread the good words at least, if not a way to remove the sword from above Kyoko's head.

A scripture-agnostic (and thus semi-secular) doctrine revolving around Hope, Grief and interpersonal kindness actually sounds like it could be very excellent for an international magical girl organization looking to establish itself unobtrusively across the world. Her father's words could be listened to and do good all over the world. Which would be closer to Redemption and the intent of Kyoko's wish than what actually happened. Assuming they're good words, and also that it's something Kyoko still wants (given she hasn't rejected her Wish, she might. If she thinks it over)
 
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