It's. It's about the people right? Kyoko's wish was that her father's words would be listened to? Believed?
So. I think it's important to ask:
What did Kyoko's father preach?
PMMM likes to make as complex/tragic a situation as can be had. Not simple and straightforward gross/terrible, but tragic in the sense that you can see a path working out but also why the flaws all add up to failure and crushing despair.
I think this is an important part of Kyoko's character that could be explored. She was a preacher's daughter who wished for her father to be listened to. That could be as simple as "I want my dad to succeed at his job (convincing others)" but-
constantly constantly
Kyoko brings up that people are people and people? People are shitty. She is shitty. She's less shitty than abusers and murderers and the worst of the scum, but she feels like she damned her whole family when she made that deal with the devil.
Her father told her that she had damned them all when she sold her soul to the devil. Told her that she deserved to be damned for making that deal.
And her wish was that her father's words would be listened to, right?
. . .
A thought.
Oriko has gone through an intense soul-inverting re-making of her wish and powers. It was incredibly draining, debilitating, and painful to go through. It left her looking corpselike, and definitely unable to fend for herself.
. . .
Kyoko hasn't rejected her wish has she.
Her father told her she traded her soul in a deal with the devil and she was personally responsible for the damnation of herself and her family and she deserved it
and Kyoko wished for her father's words to be listened to / believed. So she believes it.
So let's operate under:
1. Kyoko hasn't rejected her wish
2. Her father preached some variation of "Hope is the greatest good, Despair the evil. What matters is how you treat others, not what scripture you follow"
3. Her father blamed her along some line of "You gave into Despair and sold your soul to the Devil. Now we are all damned and it is your fault"
Kyoko, it follows, would still believe in her father's words. Both the scripture and the damnation.
In almost any other situation the murder-suicide of a family and wish-empowered condemnation of the sole survivor should make that survivor crack under Despair right? Like. Who the hell doesn't give in to despair in that situation?
Well.
A preacher's daughter who has an equal Wish-Empowered counterforce bolstering her up. The good words of a true believer.
"Hope is the greatest good, Despair the greatest evil, and what matters is how you treat others" approximately
Witches kill people. When Witches are killed, they drop a Grief Seed filled with Grief. It can cleanse the Grief from the souls of sinners who sold their souls to the Devil.
Hunting Witches is almost Atonement. It's at the least a strictly-good-act.
She may think she's a sinner damned for her failures, but she can do good still. She can save lives, and do good for others, even if (she feels) she deserves to be damned.
Does she believe she's the worst? Hell no. But she has only recently believed in her ability to inter-socially do good again, beyond committing violence to Witches and teaching others to commit better violence to Witches.
I believe that something important transpired between her and miss Nanako. I believe that the advice we were immediately given afterwards? "Each individual needs a different approach" ? I believe that's something Kyoko would have learned as a preacher's daughter in the tragic case her father was good at being a preacher and had a good doctrine, but tragically neglected earthly concerns to the point of abuse and collapse.
Also:
You want some theatrical finish against the Theatrical Witch of Helplessness Walpurgisnacht?
The Spear of Longinus is a holy relic of the legionnaire who confirmed Christ's death by inflicting the final "holy wound" by piercing his spear through Christ's chest. Longinus, instead of being reviled for his action, is instead known for his life as a Christian after that point and the good he achieved after this major formative moment.
TL;DR
Kyoko's Wish should still be in effect, both the preaching she would have heard before he found out and the condemnation.
I think it's possible for her to (?continue to?) live a life as a Guilty-Christian. Feeling like a scumbagsinner, but willing to achieve what good she can while she's here.
But uh. I think we should look into what her father's doctrine was.
Kyoko deserves to have the intent of her wish, the belief in her father's doctrine, to be fulfilled (if she believes it could be good). She doesn't deserve her flawed father's spiteful condemnation looming above her like a sword of Damocles the rest of her life.
I know a way to spread the good words at least, if not a way to remove the sword from above Kyoko's head.
A scripture-agnostic (and thus semi-secular) doctrine revolving around Hope, Grief and interpersonal kindness actually sounds like it could be very excellent for an international magical girl organization looking to establish itself unobtrusively across the world. Her father's words could be listened to and do good all over the world. Which would be closer to Redemption and the intent of Kyoko's wish than what actually happened. Assuming they're good words, and also that it's something Kyoko still wants (given she hasn't rejected her Wish, she might. If she thinks it over)
I thought Kyouko did reject her wish? And it's the reason she can't use her special magic abilities?
But this is a seriously good point. Actually, has it ever been brought up that her whole issue is because the wish had the same affect on her as it did all the other congregation members?
I thought Kyouko did reject her wish? And it's the reason she can't use her special magic abilities?
But this is a seriously good point. Actually, has it ever been brought up that her whole issue is because the wish had the same affect on her as it did all the other congregation members?
well. When would she have rejected her wish?
Because it was a pretty terrible week (at least) of absolutely-debilitating pain for Oriko, and that was her rejecting and finding a new purpose. It's unclear if she would have gotten new powers without bestbuddy around to give her a new meaning of life.
A Kyouko who just lost her family would have, I duno, stayed with Mami during that time?
. . .
It's uh. The terrible pain for Oriko might have expressed differently for Kyouko but like. It's still your soul contorting? That sounds kinda painful. It wouldn't have seemed like normal grieving and magical girls don't get sick, so. I feel like if the crippling pain happened they would have, I duno, noticed something was wrong?
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I think it's an assumption that Kyouko rejected her wish, given that her magic ability was to make her father's words/sermons believed/listened-to so with him dead she wouldn't functionally have a power with or without the rejection
well. When would she have rejected her wish?
Because it was a pretty terrible week (at least) of absolutely-debilitating pain for Oriko, and that was her rejecting and finding a new purpose. It's unclear if she would have gotten new powers without bestbuddy around to give her a new meaning of life.
A Kyouko who just lost her family would have, I duno, stayed with Mami during that time?
. . .
It's uh. The terrible pain for Oriko might have expressed differently for Kyouko but like. It's still your soul contorting? That sounds kinda painful
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her magic ability was to make her father's words/sermons believed/listened-to so with him dead she wouldn't functionally have a power with or without the rejection
Her magic ability if I recall was to clone herself. Rosa fantasma, I believe she called it. Her wish made her father's sermons be believed.
And the pain of her soul gem contorting might have been lost in the pain of seeing her entire family burn to ashes, with her father blaming her entirely for it.
Also, I'm fairly certain that even made her hate Mami.
Her magic ability if I recall was to clone herself. Rosa fantasma, I believe she called it. Her wish made her father's sermons be believed.
And the pain of her soul gem contorting might have been lost in the pain of seeing her entire family burn to ashes, with her father blaming her entirely for it.
Also, I'm fairly certain that even made her hate Mami.
well. No. Because that pain is Grief and it should probably have been fatal for basically any magical girl. That's part of their whole problem. They can't allow themselves to process grief because that's potentially lethal, at best it's a luxury. The trauma from that stacks up over time
the events that lead to the fight and Kyouko being driven out were cabbit organized. The fight entrenches both girls' flaws and isolation, while increasing their utility to cabbit.
The illusion power, rosso fantasma, is a weird one because. Very unsure if that's her power every timeline? It's not clear. We could talk to her, and make it clearer probably
well. No. Because that pain is Grief and it should probably have been fatal for basically any magical girl. That's part of their whole problem. They can't allow themselves to process grief because that's potentially lethal, at best it's a luxury. The trauma from that stacks up over time
the events that lead to the fight and Kyouko being driven out were cabbit organized. The fight entrenches both girls' flaws and isolation, while increasing their utility to cabbit.
The illusion power, rosso fantasma, is a weird one because. Very unsure if that's her power every timeline? It's not clear. We could talk to her, and make it clearer probably
Regardless whether or not Rosa Fantasma is her power every timeline, she clearly hasn't been using any powers to survive beyond baseline abilities granted to every meguca. This is probably due to her rejecting her wish outright.
Maybe the reason it was so dragged out with Oriko is that she was unsure of the changes to her beliefs and it was a slow, gradual shift in beliefs and wants, whereas with Kyouko, it was relatively rapid.
Speaking of grief, how did she not witch out at her father killing her family and then himself?
She totally did, way before the start of PMAS. That's why her only weapon is a spear. Before, she had illusion powers, which she lost after becoming disillusioned in her wish.
It's uh. The terrible pain for Oriko might have expressed differently for Kyouko but like. It's still your soul contorting? That sounds kinda painful. It wouldn't have seemed like normal grieving and magical girls don't get sick, so. I feel like if the crippling pain happened they would have, I duno, noticed something was wrong?
Remember Kyoko and Mami weren't Lichbombed before Sabrina came around. They might not have known Magical Girls don't get conventionally sick.
Add to that Kyoko actively pushing Mami away after the incident, she may have gone through the painful wish rejection process on her own in the streets as part of punishing herself for what happened.
my hypothesis is that it's the prior preaching she would have listened to also being his daughter.
because the debilitating soul pain combined with the grief of the murder suicide and being condemned/damned by her father.
Like. She really shouldn't be alive, and yet she continues to live and do good deeds and loudly complain about how shit everything is.
Her whole thing is saying one thing but doing another. Her saying she's rejected her wish and has no powers is not the same as her actually having rejected her wish and having no powers.
What's the difference between a Kyouko with no powers and a Kyouko who would rather die than ever use her damned devil-gifted powers again? She has the willpower to survive the Sakura Church incident so she damn well has the willpower to choose to die without using them
Absolutely not, those two are reserved for Oriko and Kirika, thank you.
Re: Kyouko, yes her power is illusions in every timeline, yes she rejected her wish and lost her wish magic. But rejecting your wish doesn't stop or undo your wish, so that has no bearing on her father's Charm Person effect.
The idea that Kyouko was effected by his final words is.... really interesting, but since she wasn't effected by every other thing he said, like his testing his ability to prove its evil mindcontrol, I'm inclined to think she's immune to it, either because it's 'hers' or because it only works on Muggles. The latter is most likely the case since ongoing magical effects seem to exempt Meguca in that way, like Sana Futaba's permanent invisibility.
Besides, the magic she put on his voice isn't necessary.
Kyouko already put absolute faith in everything he ever said. That's why she made the wish she did.
She already internalized his final words as an eternal curse of damnation.
There's also Madoka. She has loving parents, who also provide a good role model. She has friends, she does not particularly struggle at school.
There's no previous conflict she's a part of. She's not struggling in poverty, contrary - her parents bankroll her extremely opulent hobby. Why does she have self-esteem issues making her so prone to contracting?
Re: Kyouko, yes her power is illusions in every timeline, yes she rejected her wish and lost her wish magic. But rejecting your wish doesn't stop or undo your wish, so that has no bearing on her father's Charm Person effect.
The idea that Kyouko was effected by his final words is.... really interesting, but since she wasn't effected by every other thing he said, like his testing his ability to prove its evil mindcontrol, I'm inclined to think she's immune to it, either because it's 'hers' or because it only works on Muggles. The latter is most likely the case since ongoing magical effects seem to exempt Meguca in that way, like Sana Futaba's permanent invisibility.
Besides, the magic she put on his voice isn't necessary.
Kyouko already put absolute faith in everything he ever said. That's why she made the wish she did.
She already internalized his final words as an eternal curse of damnation.
oh now that's an interesting idea. That she just, is a true believer despite the bad shit he did.
Because if you're right about Kyouko being immune to the power then, well. She actually through only her own willpower powered through the damnation-murder-suicide and, even if she had Mami's assistance with Grief Seeds during that time, that's just. Ooof. What an actual legend.
I'm proud of her. You know, I'd prefer if she was less guilty-christian "I am a sinner who deserves this fate" but like. Yo. Even when she thinks of herself as a damned garbage sinner, and growls and grumbles and suffers she still feeds the hungry and still cares for Yuma and still makes the world a better place. What a champ.
There's also Madoka. She has loving parents, who also provide a good role model. She has friends, she does not particularly struggle at school.
There's no previous conflict she's a part of. She's not struggling in poverty, contrary - her parents bankroll her extremely opulent hobby. Why does she have self-esteem issues making her so prone to contracting?
Angella is Madoka: the most powerful of the bunch who doesn't do much for most of the series then ends up tossing herself outside of time as a heroic sacrifice. Micah is Homura, who's been in a continuous life and death situation for so long she's forgotten how to person.
Naturally, this makes Glimmer Sabrina. Hopefully we can avoid the part where our hubris nearly ends the world and makes our mom sacrifice herself, but we know we have it in us. And Bow is Mami.
Shadow Weaver is Kyubey: the worst person in the setting, talking to them is always a bad idea but people keep doing it for some reason
