[x] Kaizuki
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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[x] Kaizuki
- Location
- Here
If the vote really needs to specify things that happen up to the point where we might potentially get dragged into combat with Iowa via accidentally leaving timestop or pulling someone in somehow, then yes, you are right to specify these things. I grant this appears to be the case, but, like, it's a lot to vote on at once. To interact meaningfully with such a large vote is substantially more difficult. I will have to use higher-quality thought on it, etc.
So, brass tacks. Doing any fighting at all is a backup plan. Like, we should absolutely prepare that backup plan, because if/when we need it there'll be no time to do so properly. But I'd really rather abduct people into timestop and gem/antimagic them one by one while everyone stands around bored but alert waiting for whatever their part in the backup plan is.
And before that, if we don't pratfall out of timestop, I'd greatly prefer to reconnoiter first. We don't know what we're going to find, beyond "Almost certainly there is some subset of the Iowa group present". If the vote ends up needing to be applicable to a situation that we fall into without such an opportunity... so be it.
So the thing I have in effect described is that we should do basic coordination (such as ROE) amongst our meguca, with the intention of flying over and starting to scope out the situation, with the intention that we'll be able to respond effectively in such a problematic case as that we get dragged into combat by the act of starting to scope out the situation. And some of it will be useful anyway, so we might as well get it out of the way. However, ideally we don't actually get into combat yet. And later on, ideally we make a plan to resolve the whole thing without ever doing something that can really be described as getting into a fight.
The first part of that is doable, but I want to be on the same page.
- Location
- Illinois
So at a nonmeta level this is very true. At a meta level I have never seen Firn build up a fight like this before. We're gonna have fight scenes, here, whether we like it or not.
Yeah, you're completely not wrong about this and I hate it.
YEaaaaaah so this is, IMO, basically a mindset difference.
You're approaching this from the "maybe we won't have to fight" angle. I'm very much taking a "the odds of us wiping these people from timestop are nil" approach.
Reconciling those things... I dunno.
What I would say is, if you ask me to reduce matters, this section should be gone through in its entirely before we get anywhere near Iowa:
which is not IMO expressed in the abeyance; the abeyance asks that we discuss but it does not remotely detail that we should talk about these things or present these opinions. Certainly it makes no attempt to reconcile nonlethal aggression with Mika's desires to not get retaliated against, which I do view as a point that is highly likely to come back to screw us if we don't address it directly.
Going near Iowa means we begin to accrue risk of the fight starting. Clear objectives and ROE being outlined, justified, and accepted before we get that close mean that whatever else, we will be able to act with concerted overall goals and avoid doing anything that would spark disunity on our side. That makes those things a minimum requirement for going anywhere near Iowa, to be honest.
Going beyond that, the more planning we explicitly do during the flight and the more we make it clear exactly how seriously we are taking keeping everyone who are sticking out their necks for us here safe, the more points we are going to earn with our coalition and the more likely it becomes that we can get these people to stick their necks out for us again.
Every speck of reasonable precaution we use here does double duty as a force improver and also social. There are a lot of points to be scored right now just by openly engaging in superserious, thorough planning and really getting the impression across that if anybody here later winds up against a serious threat, they can really just expect that whatever that threat may be, Mitakihara is going to be more powerful, more reliable, and on a hell of a lot higher ground morally.
That will go a long way for us in the coming days. We shouldn't expect Iowa to be the last major martial threat to us, not even in quest scope -- and the tighter a ship we run here, the better our presentation at Tokyo is going to be.
We-- we have a fucking lot that we stand to gain by looking hypercompetent here, in the public eye as it were.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm in complete agreement that plan A should be not getting into that fight at all and everyone being bored and kinda grumpy that they were brought along at all. I do not believe in fair fights, and feel they should always be a last resort. That said, planning for the possibility that we'll be forced into a fair fight is absolutely essential, and not getting everyone on the same page before we get there would be negligent.
My preferred answer to this fight would have been going in under timestop, putting enough bullets in the air between Mami and Homura to guarantee a body kill, and only then going for the gem yank. With a plan to put the bloody mess we create back together after we've got them in our custody. Gem yank as plan A, but with the bullets as plan B already in position.
I recognize that without everyone lichbombed, that plan isn't going to work, so we're going to have a messier process, but the basic theory of having our plan B already set up and ready to move the instant something goes wrong with plan A is one I still feel is appropriate.
That said, even if not everyone's lichbombed, they know healers exist so I'm 110% in favor of them going for heavy maiming and crippling of our opposition in order to minimize the risk to our forces.
My preferred answer to this fight would have been going in under timestop, putting enough bullets in the air between Mami and Homura to guarantee a body kill, and only then going for the gem yank. With a plan to put the bloody mess we create back together after we've got them in our custody. Gem yank as plan A, but with the bullets as plan B already in position.
I recognize that without everyone lichbombed, that plan isn't going to work, so we're going to have a messier process, but the basic theory of having our plan B already set up and ready to move the instant something goes wrong with plan A is one I still feel is appropriate.
That said, even if not everyone's lichbombed, they know healers exist so I'm 110% in favor of them going for heavy maiming and crippling of our opposition in order to minimize the risk to our forces.
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- Location
- Here
The Onion: General Catgirl Decides Planning Just Not Worthwhile, Claims "Everything Will Work Out Somehow If Madoka Wills It"
No. My attitude is "We're currently in timestop and have broad freedom to act in ways they can't respond to at all. Take advantage of it while it lasts." Somehow managing to not even go over and have a look without dropping out of timestop into a brawl would be at best embarrassing.
I agree that Iowa almost certainly has something that doesn't play nice with timestop, and as we engage them more closely we may only find out what it is by tripping over it, but one thing at a time. We caught them by surprise, and you need to take very specific countermeasures not to leave some easily exploitable vulnerabilities on the table. For example, if one of them's on the toilet we should grab her first. Once we run out of that kind of thing we can do the riskier parts, as well as we're able to judge.
Now, within the applicability of your vote, I'll call it OK.
[X] Kaizuki
Arguably the most important case of the ROE is that something happens to catch us by surprise while we're doing stuff in timestop. Not all meguca present have the most flexible nonlethal options, for example Kyouko. On the other hand, as long as no one goes for gemshots, putting limbs back on afterward is technically nonlethal. Or even heads, as long as someone's in a position to disconnect the gem quickly. I'm thinking about whether we should address that point.
Either lichbombing, or some flavor of demi-lichbomb ("The gem is irreplaceable; the rest of the meguca can be put back together.") would be helpful. I think we're taking Yuma? She has an important role if we mean to fight nonlethally.
Also, we're going to take prisoners, and our allies will probably ask in advance what we're going to do with them. That's an important bit of policy.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Right... I've kept quiet quiet about some of my feelings throughout this entire affair in large part because I didn't want my and Kaizuki's differences to spark the next quest-damaging fight and see no good way to speak up and also keep this gentle, especially when we have both old folks returning and newcomers who I want to keep around and not drive off with salt.
Unfortunately, it seems speaking those feelings is necessary, so I guess I have no choice but to find a way and hope I did well enough.
I thought I'd make my position implicit. Simply, we should not be aiming to get all the way to SEA this vote. Even if Firn wants it, my concern throughout this entire affair has been that we're at risk of charging blindly in with no plan on how to adjust or change course if our opponents throw us a curveball we do not expect.
Before we craft a strategy, I want to have as much knowledge as possible to inform that strategy. And getting better information necessitates time to act on that information. Which means a vote cycle.
Throughout this entire affair, I have wanted to take it slower than you because I am afraid. We were planning to talk to people and get details on Iowa today. All of that was abandoned when we rushed in and now we're hoping our allies can pick up the slack. And so I am afraid that this plan of rushing in is arrogant, based on our imagination of our own strength, and could well get our friends and allies hurt or killed if we're wrong about that. I am afraid of hitting Iowa and discovering they have another antimagic-grade trump card that we don't know about, but could have.
If, for instance, they've got a guca that can weaponize Feathers as a phenomena, I'd like to know that too. Because fighting an enemy that stitches time would be... problematic. I don't expect that to be the case, by any means, but "the worst known factors we can imagine" are a good stand in for "completely unknown and dangerous trump card." Or hell, even just knowledge of their fundamental character. If we know they absolutely will or absolutely won't weaponize the witchbomb, for instance, that makes a difference.
You're talking about our duty in part as the image we project to our allies. Here and now, I'm thinking about our duty entirely in ensuring we aren't leading them into a killing field.
You want me to critique your plan or come up with my own? Fine. I'll do that in a bit. But I want you to consider that perhaps speed and ignorance could kill.
Unfortunately, it seems speaking those feelings is necessary, so I guess I have no choice but to find a way and hope I did well enough.
Here's the thing. I very much did see the label on your vote. I just didn't agree it was a good idea, and perhaps editing late into the night made me word my thoughts poorly. By the same token, however, I'm mad at you for just going off on me and glossing over my own fundamental points in turn. I'm trying to keep in the vein of pointing out instead of lashing out, but we'll see how well I actually do.
I thought I'd make my position implicit. Simply, we should not be aiming to get all the way to SEA this vote. Even if Firn wants it, my concern throughout this entire affair has been that we're at risk of charging blindly in with no plan on how to adjust or change course if our opponents throw us a curveball we do not expect.
Before we craft a strategy, I want to have as much knowledge as possible to inform that strategy. And getting better information necessitates time to act on that information. Which means a vote cycle.
Throughout this entire affair, I have wanted to take it slower than you because I am afraid. We were planning to talk to people and get details on Iowa today. All of that was abandoned when we rushed in and now we're hoping our allies can pick up the slack. And so I am afraid that this plan of rushing in is arrogant, based on our imagination of our own strength, and could well get our friends and allies hurt or killed if we're wrong about that. I am afraid of hitting Iowa and discovering they have another antimagic-grade trump card that we don't know about, but could have.
If, for instance, they've got a guca that can weaponize Feathers as a phenomena, I'd like to know that too. Because fighting an enemy that stitches time would be... problematic. I don't expect that to be the case, by any means, but "the worst known factors we can imagine" are a good stand in for "completely unknown and dangerous trump card." Or hell, even just knowledge of their fundamental character. If we know they absolutely will or absolutely won't weaponize the witchbomb, for instance, that makes a difference.
You're talking about our duty in part as the image we project to our allies. Here and now, I'm thinking about our duty entirely in ensuring we aren't leading them into a killing field.
You want me to critique your plan or come up with my own? Fine. I'll do that in a bit. But I want you to consider that perhaps speed and ignorance could kill.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
To put it bluntly:
Plans are worthless. We know far too little about Iowa to put together a silver bullet plan that deals with them, and any plan that tries to account for all possibilities will swiftly balloon into an unwieldy behemoth of if-then statements.
Having planned is priceless. If our allies know each other's abilities, know our general aims and goals, know what the others are going to be doing, and know where the fallback/regroup points are, then they'll be far better equipped to make smart decisions on their own initiative.
Plans don't survive contact with the enemy, sure, but that's a terrible excuse not to plan.
E: And yes, to put it bluntly, we should not be reaching our destination in the next vote. I don't care if that's what Firn wants - we flatly cannot cover the necessary material to prepare for Iowa in a single vote at the moment. Period.
Plans are worthless. We know far too little about Iowa to put together a silver bullet plan that deals with them, and any plan that tries to account for all possibilities will swiftly balloon into an unwieldy behemoth of if-then statements.
Having planned is priceless. If our allies know each other's abilities, know our general aims and goals, know what the others are going to be doing, and know where the fallback/regroup points are, then they'll be far better equipped to make smart decisions on their own initiative.
Plans don't survive contact with the enemy, sure, but that's a terrible excuse not to plan.
E: And yes, to put it bluntly, we should not be reaching our destination in the next vote. I don't care if that's what Firn wants - we flatly cannot cover the necessary material to prepare for Iowa in a single vote at the moment. Period.
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I definitely feel we should at least include something about making sure everyone we pick up knows what everyone else does. Maybe discussion of preferred tactics?
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- Here
I mean, if we really want to seriously scout the situation we can take a detour to Iowa's previous target and see if we can find anyone to ask about their roster and abilities. I was under the impression no one else was interested in that particular option (and I might be missing pertinent information), but I'm happy to do it if there is interest.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
As someone who's been on Kaizuki's side on the general "we need to move now" vs "we need to wait and gather more information" debate, I will say you aren't the only one who holds their position due to fear. I have been terrified that if we don't grab hold of this opportunity with both hands, the next time we are able to figure out where Iowa is will be after we find Hitomi's corpse laid out for us as a message.
I'm not in favor of rushing in because I'm at all confident about how this fight is going to go. I'm in favor of rushing in because I am not at all confident of our ability to stop them from doing something to one of our friends that we can't fix if we squander the completely out of the blue opportunity we got to figure out where they were that landed in our laps.
Our ability to track people down is utter shit. We've utterly failed to find the missing magical girl or any solid leads on where she might have gone. We continue to have no clue where Hijiri went after she escaped custody. Homura only found Oriko and Kirika during the great timestop hunt due to a lucky dice roll based on what I recall Firn saying at the time. We're doing this now in large part because we have no reason to believe we'll get another shot at this before they make their move.
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- Here
By this I mean "Go to their previous target in time stop and abduct the first meguca we find. Ask her if she'd like to help put down the raiders that came through a few days ago."
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
It's your last line that's the thing for me here. I acknowledge that what we plan will be smashed against a wall called reality, even as I also fear that, and even as I realize the necessity. 'swhy my argument is about "too soon" rather than "don't."
E: Or, is supposed to be, it's hard to tell from the first person what comes across when I write and what does not.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Like, let's be clear here. If we fuck this up, some of the people coming with us might die.
Even if you think Firn is a big softie and won't go for the really dramatic targets like Mami or Homura or Sayaka (and the wisdom of that assumption is questionable), do you think that Fukushima/ the Pleiades/Mika share that "plot armor"?
Take it slowly, take it carefully, and for the love of god don't rush to fit it all in a single update because of meta concerns.
Even if you think Firn is a big softie and won't go for the really dramatic targets like Mami or Homura or Sayaka (and the wisdom of that assumption is questionable), do you think that Fukushima/ the Pleiades/Mika share that "plot armor"?
Take it slowly, take it carefully, and for the love of god don't rush to fit it all in a single update because of meta concerns.
And if that's the way, so be it! I'm fine with that, too: I'm only preferring to write to getting there because I'm eager to do the big reveal, and writing-wise, well... a long flight isn't the most interesting thing in the world to write. There's not much to describe.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
...is there any particular reason why we have to plan on the way over? We could just spend the hours-long trip to SEA getting everyone familiarized with each other's capabilities and approaches, and then start planning once we're on-site and thus able to get some idea of what's going on in the area?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
The main concern is that we might hit some sort of tripwire or something that dumps us into combat when we show up, so the safe play is to do the planning before getting in range of any potential Iowa shenanigans, then if we show up and don't get dunked on, adjust the plans as necessary before going in.
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- Here
Like @Nerevar , I want to start taking down Iowa in as little wallclock time as possible because I think it's the less risky time. I would add that I think this approach is less risky for the actual combat part, because showing up and acting under conditions when they only just learned that we could maybe reach them is ideal. They haven't had more than a few minutes to make react. Their ability to learn about our capabilities at a distance is probably limited in significant ways, or else they wouldn't bother with the storm thing.
Recurrence
Armchair Parapsychologist
- Location
- Limbo
Depends on if you count all the times we have to use social skills or not.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
So what you're saying is that we should make a barrier in timestop and use that so that we do have plenty to describe. Like the barrier curious extra, and the Feathers and the crashing and the burning as it all goes up in smoke.And if that's the way, so be it! I'm fine with that, too: I'm only preferring to write to getting there because I'm eager to do the big reveal, and writing-wise, well... a long flight isn't the most interesting thing in the world to write. There's not much to describe.
Alternatively, we go in and find the reveal: Despite their reputation, Iowa were actually the good guys all along, and they exclusively target the Sajas, San Sui Huis, and Sendais of the world. They were just after us because everyone knows a newsworthy grief controller means trouble in spades.
... Okay, jokes aside, honestly that second one doesn't strike me as impossible or even unlikely for being Iowa's own conception of themselves, I just think it's unlikely the people who would actually do that via use of force first and foremost would really be the good guys.
Well, Firn has moved us out of a situation we weren't prepared for, back when we were talking about preemptively potentialbombing Homura.
Beyond that however, my impression, drawn from his talk on Asunaro plans, is that that's not quite how the decision process goes. The talk there being that the Asunaro situation started out almost but not quite trivially solvable on the first week and the longer we waited to get involved the worse it would be. So the dynamic less about what we're ready for and more that either we have a problem come to us or we get out ahead of it.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Here's where I'm at with my take on the vote:
[ ] Final note to add: This isn't the time for a whole big talk, but if Oriko wants something to mull over...
-[ ] Ask if Oriko has considered whether understanding others and being understood, might be more useful for attaining the trust and aid of others than any other skill or action. You believe frequent discussions with your friends in that vein are a significant factor in why her gesture wasn't necessary, among other successes.
-[ ] If she, or anyone really, wants to go more in depth on that then you should talk later.
[ ] Gather Mitakihara and head to Fukushima, pick up and drop off Atsuko, then head to Asunaro.
-[ ] Split/expand the flying platform as necessary so everyone can be comfortable and have as much privacy as they'd like. Provide music on request.
-[ ] Ask for suggestions on any enchantments that might be particularly useful coming up: Luck, Antimagic Protection, Mind Control Protection? Work on it during the trip.
-[ ] If people want to keep it light, do some idle chit chat.
--[ ] Observe Yuki's reaction to meeting the most powerful magical girl in Mitakihara, Akemi Homura.
-[ ] If people want to be productive, try to do some useful brainstorming:
--[ ] Is Mami's sense of where to go "updating", in a way that would let us triangulate where Iowa is? Make Mami an accurate globe to use as a reference.
---[ ] If it is, she can work with Oriko to help narrow down the location.
--[ ] Have Sayaka copy whichever powers she hasn't yet (provided the owner agrees, of course.)
/// This is the "finish Oriko, pick up Fukushima, get to Asunaro" part of the vote.
[ ] Have a strategy meeting in Asunaro once you've picked up everyone involved:
[ ] You want to take down the Iowa group, in it's entirety. The raiding they've done is entirely unacceptable, and you have no interest in leaving yourself open to reprisals afterwards.
-[ ] Ideally, you want to do it non-lethally - Yuki should be able to hold them, especially with antimagic in play. Stopped time might allow this to get reasonably pulled off.
--[ ] If for whatever reason timestop fails, given who Iowa is, you shouldn't need to say that escalation is acceptable if necessary. Everyone should avoid collateral damage to civilians to the best of their abilities.
[ ] Share all information available about Iowa with everyone, make sure everyone is informed.
-[ ] Given their continued survival in the dangerous business of raiding, you're expecting both significant experience from Iowa's core team and one or more "trump card" abilities to let them tip the scales. Ask Yuki/Kazumi/Mami/Homura for their thoughts on what the most likely such trump cards might be and how to avoid them.
[ ] Conduct a full discussion of each others' abilities, limitations, and preferred roles in order to facilitate effective teamwork against Iowa.
-[ ] Ideally, you'll ambush Iowa one-by-one from timestop and take them out piecemeal. They have some form of anti-clairvoyance barrier up, which might be more general antimagic, so you'll need to be careful on the approach so you don't get accidentally dropped out of timestop on arrival.
-[ ] Kyuubey has not been shy about sharing details on Homura's power in the past - if Iowa has countermeasures for it, it's safest to assume those countermeasures are active.
-[ ] Gather suggestions on how everyone can contribute to both the timestop incapacitation plan, and a more general combat approach if timestop gets countered and realtime fighting occurs.
[ ] Once everyone is on the same page about our aims, head towards the traced location. As you draw closer, take more precautions.
/// This is the actual planning session.
Thoughts?
[ ] Final note to add: This isn't the time for a whole big talk, but if Oriko wants something to mull over...
-[ ] Ask if Oriko has considered whether understanding others and being understood, might be more useful for attaining the trust and aid of others than any other skill or action. You believe frequent discussions with your friends in that vein are a significant factor in why her gesture wasn't necessary, among other successes.
-[ ] If she, or anyone really, wants to go more in depth on that then you should talk later.
[ ] Gather Mitakihara and head to Fukushima, pick up and drop off Atsuko, then head to Asunaro.
-[ ] Split/expand the flying platform as necessary so everyone can be comfortable and have as much privacy as they'd like. Provide music on request.
-[ ] Ask for suggestions on any enchantments that might be particularly useful coming up: Luck, Antimagic Protection, Mind Control Protection? Work on it during the trip.
-[ ] If people want to keep it light, do some idle chit chat.
--[ ] Observe Yuki's reaction to meeting the most powerful magical girl in Mitakihara, Akemi Homura.
-[ ] If people want to be productive, try to do some useful brainstorming:
--[ ] Is Mami's sense of where to go "updating", in a way that would let us triangulate where Iowa is? Make Mami an accurate globe to use as a reference.
---[ ] If it is, she can work with Oriko to help narrow down the location.
--[ ] Have Sayaka copy whichever powers she hasn't yet (provided the owner agrees, of course.)
/// This is the "finish Oriko, pick up Fukushima, get to Asunaro" part of the vote.
[ ] Have a strategy meeting in Asunaro once you've picked up everyone involved:
[ ] You want to take down the Iowa group, in it's entirety. The raiding they've done is entirely unacceptable, and you have no interest in leaving yourself open to reprisals afterwards.
-[ ] Ideally, you want to do it non-lethally - Yuki should be able to hold them, especially with antimagic in play. Stopped time might allow this to get reasonably pulled off.
--[ ] If for whatever reason timestop fails, given who Iowa is, you shouldn't need to say that escalation is acceptable if necessary. Everyone should avoid collateral damage to civilians to the best of their abilities.
[ ] Share all information available about Iowa with everyone, make sure everyone is informed.
-[ ] Given their continued survival in the dangerous business of raiding, you're expecting both significant experience from Iowa's core team and one or more "trump card" abilities to let them tip the scales. Ask Yuki/Kazumi/Mami/Homura for their thoughts on what the most likely such trump cards might be and how to avoid them.
[ ] Conduct a full discussion of each others' abilities, limitations, and preferred roles in order to facilitate effective teamwork against Iowa.
-[ ] Ideally, you'll ambush Iowa one-by-one from timestop and take them out piecemeal. They have some form of anti-clairvoyance barrier up, which might be more general antimagic, so you'll need to be careful on the approach so you don't get accidentally dropped out of timestop on arrival.
-[ ] Kyuubey has not been shy about sharing details on Homura's power in the past - if Iowa has countermeasures for it, it's safest to assume those countermeasures are active.
-[ ] Gather suggestions on how everyone can contribute to both the timestop incapacitation plan, and a more general combat approach if timestop gets countered and realtime fighting occurs.
[ ] Once everyone is on the same page about our aims, head towards the traced location. As you draw closer, take more precautions.
/// This is the actual planning session.
Thoughts?
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
We clearly weren't ready for Rionna. And by we I mean the thread. Arguably still aren't.