You know what, this is kind of a useless reply. You wouldn't prefer me rewriting that because you don't want it in the first place, and I'm not going to change your views on how much credit Mami deserves these days when I'm not even making an actual argument about it.

It's just me quitting, and doing so while leaving everything behind the scenes and unaired. I haven't put any of the thinking I've done around this in the thread, I've made no real explanation of why it's so important, and I've given no meaningful reason why this should be a thing we do.

... Also it's kind of pretty rude.

Well then!

First off, the line I've been obsessing over for most of the day:



I don't know what you all are reading from this line -- except Redshirt, I guess:



... but what I'm seeing in it is the majority of an iceberg. See, Redshirt, you asked if it's really confusing that she's seen as isolationist -- and my reply is that it's not confusing (on the contrary, it makes Too Much Sense) but it is a Big Deal. You mentioned that no other groups form in her territory -- I ask you, why is that?

Well, Yuki has answered that for us, hasn't she? "It's remarkable," Yuki says, "that she's let anyone else take up residence in Mitakihara."

... What the fuck?

I ask you all: why would Mami disallow people from taking up residence in Mitakihara?

...

Well, obviously the natural continuation is that she did eject a number of people under circumstances she has not particularly gone into, presumably for being in some fashion evil. And yet, isn't there a clear and massive discontinuity between that, and her disallowing people from taking up residence in Mitakihara?

... Wasn't people taking up residence in Mitakihara and being friendly with her exactly what the Mami we all know wanted the entire time? Why on Earth would she disallow it? That explanation is weird. It is not a reasonable explanation from our viewpoint as to why no other groups form in Mami's territory.

"The Incubator did it," though...



That was about where I started obsessing over this. Because in that moment, I decided that that looked far, far too much like a convenient way for the Incubator to prevent external variables from interfering with Mami's dependency on it: spin something (Mami kicking those people out, QB avoiding taking actions that would cause a group to form in Mitakihara which would not clash with Mami?) around until everyone "knew" that Mami didn't want anyone else around anyway.

So then I went and thought about it a bunch more. I looked for potential avenues for such a reputation to have been arrived at legitimately -- what I came up with after checking Mami's account of the Tohoku University group's offer to her was that there was an off chance it was something along the lines of "it was necessary to pursue a policy of not letting anyone set up shop in Mitakihara in order to stay out of bloodshed-involving inter-group conflicts." Maybe.

Then I figured, well, Shadowrunning is frowned on, so let's establish that this wasn't a legitimate thing before we declare a QB plot. So I added the line about asking Mami a question... and because I'd spent the past hours going over all of this in my notes, instead of here, it was, uh... pretty out of the blue, lmao.

To be honest, I don't really care about asking Mami that question. My instinct is to pull Yuki aside after the meeting, annihilate whatever impression Yuki has of Mami as "isolationist and unwilling to let people set up in Mitakihara" by dropping personal details like "she literally gave me her guest room when I'd known her for five minutes and neither of us knew I could cleanse soul gems", and then ask Yuki to tell us everything she knows about how it came to be that Mami is "famously isolationist." Frankly, I think it would be a deeply informative and revealing exercise in investigating QB ways and means -- for Yuki, certainly, and potentially for us -- as well as an excellent way to start getting rid of a reputation that has, I expect, massively contributed to Mami's isolation and traumatization.

Now hey -- I could be wrong.

But I am also really, really pissed. I want to punt a goddamn QB over a river right now. If this is not what actually happened, then that's one thing, but if it is --

And that is why I want to find out.




[X] Redshirt Army

Okay, I should register that this could conceivably be a manifestation of the "Mami has high standards regarding meguca behavior" facet of her characterization, and I should register that because A) it's a Canon facet of her, B) it's a facet of her that my mental model of her in PMAS reduces to "Mami doesn't condone actively farming familiars or letting people die in front of you", and C) we do not technically have hard evidence that my mental model of Mami is right about that exact issue.

I can't conceive of Mami disallowing people from setting up in Mitakihara because of something like "they aren't willing to actively kill every familiar." There's a line between that and "Mami throwing people out for familiar farming" and that's about where my mental Mami has her line drawn. If that particular bit of my mental model is correct, then yes, all of that stuff is weird. And, I mean, I obviously do think that my model is correct...

But if I was going to be wrong about any part of who Mami is -- an unlikely thing, I hope -- it would be about this, and that's something that should be said.

... But... Man, does anybody remember where the tiny segment was where Mami talked in passing about the people she did throw out? It was, like... I mean, it was more of a "I threw some people out" than a passage actually talking about who those people were, but all I can remember is how hard it seemed like it had been for her to do that at all...

Anyway, hopefully now I can shut up until next update :V
 
For reference, here are Sabrina's thoughts on the matter:

Sayaka falls silent, smart enough to recognise when she'd touched a sore spot.

"Kagome Ayaka was one of Mami's ex-pupils, who left her," you murmur telepathically to your friend. "Touchy subject."

"So that's why she was asking after Mami and you," Sayaka says, a brief frown flickering over her face. "Why'd she leave?"

"I don't know for sure, but you know Mami's insistence on killing all Familiars during a hunt?" you say. "It's a very, very high standard to hold against magical girls who aren't us. Most can't afford it. I'm guessing they disagreed over it."

"Hrrrm." Sayaka scowls, sitting back in her chair and frowning.

That section was unprompted by our vote, so it's Brinapilots honest evaluation.
 
The vote was leaving an undefended opening, so made a tweak.
As much as total honesty is great, Madoka is not on anyone's menu if we can help it. Homura needs to be somewhat concealed to effect that. Hitomi should not become visible for the same reason. That means we don't broadcast too much about our internal relationships, other than that Mitakihara is moving forward as a group. We are operating a fairly normal "celebrity public relations campaign." Mami is our co-star, Sayaka Oriko and Kirika fill the rest of the stage. Until we move the world enough, we need to gain the bonus of infosec for Homura and Madoka. We act as the lightning rod, and crazies will preferentially target us. That is far and away the best protection we can offer them right now.

Yuki does remember Homura, but much to our chagrin it isn't time for her to understand and meet Homura. I aim to be consistent, so Yuki gets the message, that is "Sabrina is here, talk to Sabrina."

[X] You're not sure you understand the question. They're here, you're here, why wouldn't you meet them?
-[X] There's no real deeper plan to this meeting, if that's what she's asking.
--[X] At the moment we're mostly relying on Nadia's advice when it comes to who to contact. Nadia has agreed to spread the word to people in need, but in the meantime you're just reaching out through your existing connections to help people.

[X] Who would Yuki recommend contacting?
-[X] Tokyo is huge, of course, but are there any other "regional power centers" that call for more in-depth negotiations?
-[X] What are some groups that might cause trouble?

[X] Meet with the Hirano Group.
-[X] Be *slightly* more formal than usual, since Yuki is here. But only a tad - you're still Sabrina.
--[X] Standard offer, standard warnings.
---[X] The only thing you want in exchange is for them to be nice to others.
---[X] Offer to demonstrate Privacy. Enchant the construct, explain why they need it once inside.

Privacy Enchantment is a great way to offer our new contacts proof of our intentions. At the same time, it defines part of our morals and politics. Asking them to make and test their own is an affirmation, as well as acceptance. I think offering to demo Privacy has superior innate value, as well as gives our introduction to the Hirano group conversational branch points we want.

My issue is that I can conceive of a series of events which would lead to Mami actually creating a reputation for isolationism, and that until I discount that possibility I cannot react to this "reputation" by nuking it in the face so that people will approach Mami more often

Reading all you had to say about this, our ideals and actions are cure. Sabrina is already exactly the cure Mami needs. Most other girls don't have the Incubator focus on them so much, or for so long. Yuki doesn't have the same sort of goals and outlook, thus she is asking us to explain. It defines what Yuki has been thinking all this time. Making rounds to all the neighbors is exactly the sort of behavior that washes away Kyuubey's curse. Mami shares in everything we achieve, and we can only do these things because we have world-class support from all our friends. Sabrina is the new public face, but we all instinctively grasp that it is a group activity. No one can do this alone.
 
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Hmmm. If we nuke (or rather, KKV) them from orbit once they're away from populated areas, that should be far enough away to avoid anything that could drag them into timestop with us. On the other hand, it does give them more time to notice and respond to the object heading towards them, and it also requires that we be morally okay with killing them without first trying a non lethal takedown. If one of them has a strong enough shield type magic, and they can get enough warning (Kyubey should be able to notice that kind of thing, right) then this might not work. Not to mention, it requires that they actually enter an unpopulated area while we're watching, which they may or may not be able to avoid. Nuking them from midrange (less than a mile away) would give them less warning, but it also has a higher risk of getting caught in some kind of tripwire type thing and drag them into timestop.
On the other hand, antimagic enchanted KKVs should get through a shield just fine, we'd only have to worry about them teleporting.
Best way to solve this so long as they don't teleport would be to have the projectile go faster. This means a big gun instead of just dropping it, which is fine because I've already thought of everything that needs to go with such a gun:

First, it needs to be a Railgun. This is because Sabrina needs to make the gun, but can't make projectiles that don't dissolve outside her range. So projectiles need to be something easy for others to make and iron or other magnetic metals fit, plus magnetic is probably something Mami's bullets can be made to be even if they aren't already. Second, it needs sensors, a targeting computer and maneuvering thrusters to make adjustments to the gun's bearing with high precision. We don't want to miss, for multiple reasons. Third, it needs a main thruster, to make big adjustments and avoid potential return fire. Fourth, it needs life support and space for the crew, which includes at least 3 people, namely Sabrina to keep it together, Homura to keep us in timestop and someone (almost certainly Mami) to make the projectiles we're firing.

So basically, it's a spaceship. The only thing it doesn't have that a spaceship has is FTL, and that's because we already have Homura to do the job. The size can be as small as we can fit everything required, or as a sphere as big as Sabrina's range with a cannon going all the way through it. The latter would look suspiciously like the Death Star, so maybe just make one that is as long as Sabrina's range to have maximal room for our gun but shaped like literally any other space craft?
 
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You know...
I was thinking, and it seems like a good guess to assume that Kyubey is already aware of all the canon PMMM stuff up to episode 11 or will be in the nearest future.

There is some stuff we've done ourselves that we try to keep secret, or at least not advertise very much, but let's be real here.
Dewitching research? Would assume that just from our modus operandi.
Us knowing about stuff, up to and including Homura's Potential Repeater? Again, would assume that from us knowing these Gucas very well.

The only things he probably doesn't know are the things we, the questers don't know ourselves, and even then I kinda think grilling him for answers on those questions would have been useful hadn't he been a compulsive liar.
Sort of curious of finding out how he thinks we were born.

I mean, hugged GesTart is of course our all time favorite theory, along with being a lovechild who wants her parents to marry already, they've been dating for fifteen years.
 
Sabrina: ... I want to talk to them because they are people. People are fascinating. They lie, they cheat, they steal, they do selfless acts and magnanimous gestures. They can be short sighted and think foward centuries. You can give them all the power in the verse and the only thing they will want is tea with a friend, they can wish to control space and time just to save a their love... they can be poor, they can be rich, surrounded with friends or secluded alone but every single one has a story.

... and I just want to hear the story

And ensure they can keep making it.

*sips tea* this is very good tea by the way, what brand is it?
 
Best way to solve this so long as they don't teleport would be to have the projectile go faster. This means a big gun instead of just dropping it, which is fine because I've already thought of everything that needs to go with such a gun:

First, it needs to be a Railgun. This is because Sabrina needs to make the gun, but can't make projectiles that don't dissolve outside her range. So projectiles need to be something easy for others to make and iron or other magnetic metals fit, plus magnetic is probably something Mami's bullets can be made to be even if they aren't already. Second, it needs sensors, a targeting computer and maneuvering thrusters to make adjustments to the gun's bearing with high precision. We don't want to miss, for multiple reasons. Third, it needs a main thruster, to make big adjustments and avoid potential return fire. Fourth, it needs life support and space for the crew, which includes at least 3 people, namely Sabrina to keep it together, Homura to keep us in timestop and someone (almost certainly Mami) to make the projectiles we're firing.

So basically, it's a spaceship. The only thing it doesn't have that a spaceship has is FTL, and that's because we already have Homura to do the job. The size can be as small as we can fit everything required, or as a sphere as big as Sabrina's range with a cannon going all the way through it. The latter would look suspiciously like the Death Star, so maybe just make one that is as long as Sabrina's range to have maximal room for our gun but shaped like literally any other space craft?
Hmmm. Does a railgun really need to be a finite amount of matter/grief? What if, instead, we made a "small" railgun out of grief in timestop, fired a non-grief railgun slug, and then once it stopped moving from timestop, just moved our magnets forward and touched the slug again so it got accelerated all over again? As long as we fire from far enough away in space there should be no limit to just how many times we accelerate the slug, nor a limit to just how fast we could make it go. In this way, space itself is the barrel of our gun.

At some point in the acceleration we reach a speed where the slug crosses the distance between [where we stop accelerating it] and [where it impacts the ground] fast enough that meguca reaction times won't matter even if they have a teleporter. We might also be able to add one of Homura's shield enchantment in order to make smaller slugs not burn up in atmosphere, potentially allowing us to reach *ahem* sufficient velocity without turning the slug into a WMD. We just need to find out if magnetism works on objects inside the enchantment, determine what velocity we need this slug to go, and how much mass we need in order for the slug to only make a *very big explosion*, rather than a *continent destroying explosion*.


Edit:
I just realized. I recently was told in no uncertain terms that ordering my steak well done was an affront to fine dining, as it ruins the taste of the steak. I just had a tea microwaving incident. :p
 
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.... wait why are we talking about RKKVs??

Have you looked at the title of the forum we're on? It's only in character.

Semi-back on topic, is there any way of moving the Iowa group to a place where we could nuke them with impunity? With our level of power, one of the only sure ways to get one up on Sabrina is to control the battlefield (Hostages, forcing collateral damage, etc). We need to negate that advantage.
 
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Have you looked at the title of the forum we're on? It's only in character.

Semi-back on topic, is there any way of moving the Iowa group to a place where we could nuke them with impunity? With our level of power, one of the only sure ways to get one up on Sabrina is to control the battlefield (Hostages, forcing collateral damage, etc). We need to negate that advantage.

We could rotate them into our pocket dimension?*

(* - this is totally not us trapping them in our Witch Barrier. Nope. Not at all. Completely Different. Stop looking at me like that.)
 
Hold up, lemme find the appropriate image from the PMAS archives...

Ah, here we go.


Who knew it'd ever have relevance again?
 
Have you looked at the title of the forum we're on? It's only in character.

Semi-back on topic, is there any way of moving the Iowa group to a place where we could nuke them with impunity? With our level of power, one of the only sure ways to get one up on Sabrina is to control the battlefield (Hostages, forcing collateral damage, etc). We need to negate that advantage.
The obvious way is to just wait until they move there themselves. Assuming they don't teleport everywhere they go, they have to travel by road sometimes, and that means we can catch them on an empty stretch of road and only ruin some fields/landscape when we hit them.
 
Since we touched lightly on the topic, did we ever check how fast Sabrina can push something with grief? I'd assume she approaches lightspeed if she'd really try. Not that we should of course, tiny bit more energy than the planet could handle.
 
Since we touched lightly on the topic, did we ever check how fast Sabrina can push something with grief? I'd assume she approaches lightspeed if she'd really try. Not that we should of course, tiny bit more energy than the planet could handle.

We have not. I'd like to test it out this afternoon if we have time - find a witch barrier and throw things around until the witch dies.
 
Since we touched lightly on the topic, did we ever check how fast Sabrina can push something with grief? I'd assume she approaches lightspeed if she'd really try. Not that we should of course, tiny bit more energy than the planet could handle.
While it might be considered a case of the no-limits fallacy, it's probable that any hard limit we have is higher than the soft limit of, "Oh dear Madokami, the bullet is fusing with the atmosphere."
 
Yeah, there's the issue that at some point we'll hit the point where we can't launch it any faster cause it just burns away in the atmosphere or just straight up detonates from the atmosphere pushing back on it
But the idea of creating a hammer and just wacking it into relativistic speed is funny enough as is
 
Yeah, there's the issue that at some point we'll hit the point where we can't launch it any faster cause it just burns away in the atmosphere or just straight up detonates from the atmosphere pushing back on it
But the idea of creating a hammer and just wacking it into relativistic speed is funny enough as is
Launching a projectile too fast in the atmosphere is almost identical to a Nuclear Detonation without the Nuclear Fallout.

This happened in Russia, once, when the Chelyabinsk Meteor entered the atmosphere on February 15, 2013, traveling at about Mach 55. It heavier than the Eiffel Tower, the explosion was brighter than the Sun, and was estimated to contain enough firepower to outdo the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima by a factor of about 30. Thank god it wasn't pointed directly at the ground or shit would have gone way worse than it did. As it was, the explosion was too far for the heat to do any real damage. The shockwave, however, did travel, and while it wasn't lethal it did injure over 1500 people, and damage over 7200 buildings.
 
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Launching a projectile too fast in the atmosphere is almost identical to a Nuclear Detonation without the Nuclear Fallout.

This happened in Russia, once, when the Chelyabinsk Meteor entered the atmosphere on February 15, 2013, traveling at about Mach 55. It heavier than the Eiffel Tower, the explosion was brighter than the Sun, and was estimated to contain enough firepower to outdo the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima by a factor of about 30. Thank god it wasn't pointed directly at the ground or shit would have gone way worse than it did. As it was, the explosion was too far for the heat to do any real damage. The shockwave, however, did travel, and while it wasn't lethal it did injure over 1500 people, and damage over 7200 buildings.
Well there's a large difference between launching a multi thousand ton object at Mach 55 and firing a railgun slug at Mach twenty
 
Actually the speed limit will be the acceleration we can impart since once the object leaves our control radius no more grief propulsion. Which suggests that the top speed might be determined by how much inertia grief has and how much we loss due to it flying out of our control radius thus total top speed of an object is decided by how much grief we can lose.
s
 
@065tdsa
I'd like not to 'splode Iowa girls entirely. Just a little is fine. Don't break gems. If you want to shell them, such that they can dodge - making them concentrate inside a confining defense, and granting us an easy win, I wouldn't resist? Battlefield control is amazing, and we should make that happen.


Overwhelming advantage, and lightning speed are the ways of compassion. If they don't suicide, we are taking away their freedom, and their magic; don't give them a lot of time to make a mistake there. If we can't stop one from killing herself, as per Yuki's story, we can't get invested in the fate of that girl. Being overly fastidious is risking our allies, and I do not recommend that. But both moms should be proud of us if we do this the best way. Attack, must be distinct from assassination, and distinct from self-sacrifice.

Let's make a plan that gets us "good margin, good flexibility." We expect they can "shock and awe." They either have a scary offense ( they can't field it continuously ) or they make it seem like they do. That's bad for us, as a potential. We also now know they should have a precog. That is very good news for us! Their numbers are within reason, given that only a few magi can keep up with our fastest acceleration or Sayaka's flight. If we really have to get into a magic attrition fight, they will lose by default, so our rush plan isn't a gambit, just one possibility.

We can now infer a bit about how they think when they are fighting. Using precog makes one dependent on prophesy. We know that isn't wise, and we can burn them for it.

We can out-shock and over-awe them by disabling their precog, followed immediately by their C&C. That should allow us to sweep them up in smaller fights when their plan fails.

Disabling their predictive warning is actually quite simple, we know how this works! It is even inexpensive, and commonplace for us.

We will travel, fight, and win inside of Privacy. As long as we can hold the information blockade, they cannot close the timelike loop. For bonus points, we combo attack with Mami, to make our approach - from high altitude - a half-mile wide ball of shadow. Suitable for weakening their resolve?

@DB_Explorer I pose to you, how fast can we move - another Magical Girl? Our endstate for combat is clamping the anti-magic on them, most times. I suggest we experiment with the range limit of non-solid links to Homura. That way, she can just stutter her timestop as needed, granting any of us a "warp" combo movement. Spamming that has to be a fearsome trick. Either Mami fires entanglement ribbons from many angles "instantly," Sayaka appears in four places "at once" to push lightning into the enemy, Sabrina rushes past their lines to tag everyone with Grief; it turns high mobility combat up to 11.

The ideal in my mind is they first learn anything about their attackers when we are rebooting them inside jail.
 
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