Hey guys FYI, we have never seen a magical girl grow weaker/stronger etc. in the sense of having more or less capacity, right?
(After a contract to be precise, Madoka and Homura are weird exceptions)
So does it not stand to reason that we could still break the laws of the universe in other interesting ways because we are using the same amount of fuel trying to break it?
I mean, magic breaks conservation of energy by introducing energy from an extradimensional point (souls. In ep 12 there was an afterlife so it is not literally energy from nowhere)
but it still keeps conservation of potential, as in, you can break a country/ read minds/ summon horrors from beyond reality?
That won't change without due reason, grow less/more in that sense.
So we should be capable of doing more with what we have that is reasonably equal to the bullshit that is griefcontrol.
100 motes stay 100 motes, it is just about using them properly.
(Sorry for brusqueness [if that is the/a word] just slightly bothered by life in general)

Actually, we do observe a Magical Girl's potential being changed by way of relatively mundane interference. Tart's potential cgot increased when someone saved her life.

Your questions are related. In Wraith Arc, Homura tried to go back to one of the pre-Madokami timelines and found it still existed, but had been completely destroyed by Madoka's witch.
Um. No. Homura tried to go back to one of those timelines and, since it DIDN'T exist, wound up in the conceptual space where Madokami and the Witch of Despair duel forever. Madoka's wish specifically involves defeating all witches, in all possible worlds.
 
Your questions are related. In Wraith Arc, Homura tried to go back to one of the pre-Madokami timelines and found it still existed, but had been completely destroyed by Madoka's witch.
Huh. I'll need to actually read Wraith Arc to understand fully, but that is worrisome to hear. Admittedly, though...even if that's the case, parallel universes arise pretty easily. We can't afford to worry about every life lost in a universe that our actions avert. We'd go mad. Madoka's got it the same.

Ninja'd by The Aura. Thanks for explaining!
Madoka's wish doesn't really help those girls that much. They still die, usually very quickly. They just don't become witches afterwards. I place more importance on keeping present and future people alive.
Ah, I see. I disagree strongly. Life is finite. Souls are eternal. I care much more about insuring no one is trapped in eternal suffering, even if that means they immediately die and are absorbed by Madokami, it's still better than leaving them as they are, trapped in Grief Seeds.

(Trying to change history is another one of those things that never ends well, anyway.)
Just because it's a narrative convention, doesn't mean it's actually going to end badly.

If Grief Seed shortages were no longer a thing, the existing magical girls could probably wipe out any remaining Witches pretty quickly, and no new ones would form. Witches would soon be a non-issue.
Well, no. Even if they eliminated every Witch currently active and destroyed it's Seed (killing it), all of the Witches/Seeds currently possessed by the Incubators would still be left in their current, tortured state. Averting future Witch-Outs and damage caused by existing Witches doesn't save any of the girls who have already become Witches. That seems quite insufficient, to me.

That said, I'm not recommending it because the consequences are unknown. I'm just saying, there are wishes that could have done more good than just "no more witches."
I agree that other Wishes could be better (mostly because of metaknowledge, not because it wasn't one of the best possible Wishes she could have made, with the knowledge she had). I just think simply stopping Grief accumulation is insufficient.
 
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If Sabrina can't make a positive change on par with what Madoka did... then why are we stopping her from wishing, again?
A bit to prevent her from spawning a mega-witch, and mostly to prevent Homura PTSD. And because Being Meguca Sucks. We wouldn't want Hitomi to wish either, and Hitomi isn't holding a ton of bricks over our head by having silly potential.

We should seek to make small changes that allow new systems to develop naturally, rather than try to overhaul the system all at once. A total overhaul has too much room for error, whereas small changes allow us to troubleshoot problems that arise in manageable chunks. I'm not saying to abandon the dream of matching a Madowish, I'm just saying to abandon the dream that we'll do it tomorrow. We need to invent agriculture before we can invent spaceflight, yeah?
 
@AuraTwilight I must have misremembered. My mistake.


Is there any actual evidence of this? From what I can tell there isn't. Part of it may be that the slice of Mitakihara is not a closed system, but it looks less like grief and hope balance than grief being like entropy and always tending to a maximum.
Hope and despair balancing out is never actually established to be true in the series. It's just something that Kyouko said once while in a shitty mood. The events of the series don't actually bear it out at all because, as much bad shit happened, far more lives were saved by the actions of each magical girl than were lost.

EDIT: One could perhaps argue that the hope and despair felt by each girl were equal, and that each one suffered negative emotions equal to their positive ones on their way to witching out, but that's about it.

Ah, I see. I disagree strongly. Life is finite. Souls are eternal. I care much more about insuring no one is trapped in eternal suffering, even if that means they immediately die and are absorbed by Madokami, it's still better than leaving them as they are, trapped in Grief Seeds.
Then after we develop dewitching, we should go raid the Incubators' homeworld and steal back all their Grief Seeds. :D

I take the approach that those who are already dead can't be helped, but those who are still alive can be. Tampering with history (more than a few years back, at least) has unforeseeable consequences and is best avoided. You have to do what you can in the here and now.

If Sabrina can't make a positive change on par with what Madoka did... then why are we stopping her from wishing, again?
Because a Madowish has never actually worked. 99% of Madowishes result in the world being destroyed and Homura resetting time. The remaining 1% resulted in Homura going full yandere and fucking up the universe to get her crush back. The success rate is zero. We can definitely do better.
 
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Is there any actual evidence of this? From what I can tell there isn't. Part of it may be that the slice of Mitakihara is not a closed system, but it looks less like grief and hope balance than grief being like entropy and always tending to a maximum.

It's because Muh Buddhist Allegories. Kyouko and Sayaka are paraphrasing the Four Buddhist Truths, which basically boil down to "Desire and expectations lead to disappointment and suffering." Because we want things, and either can never have those things or never hope to hold onto them forever, because causality. People become emotionally tethered to specific states of the universe, but the universe is always changing states, forever.

Nitpicking every single smile and tear to see if they line up one to one is not only stupid but also grossly misunderstanding the point. They're talking about the human condition, made more literal via magical allegory with despair energy being created to balance hope energy, what with karmic balance from the universe (the same force that produced Wraiths to maintain homeostasis).
 
Is there any actual evidence of this? From what I can tell there isn't. Part of it may be that the slice of Mitakihara is not a closed system, but it looks less like grief and hope balance than grief being like entropy and always tending to a maximum.
A Witch is a giant mass of Grief. In order to overcome that, an equal amount of Hope must be sacrificed. The same applies to more conventional Grief.

Every life saved, every miracle created...all the wonders that Puella Magi create and all the Witches they conquer result from Puella Magi creating Hope. We just don't get to see the actual Hope they create, because it's enjoyed by others, not the Magi themselves.

The Puella Magus, in turn, must thus suffer equal Grief to the Hope they create. In battle with Witches, this is covered by the Grief that they accumulate from Magic use. The other Hope they bring into the world, though? The happiness created by their Wishes and the Grief they avert by saving innocents and working miracles? That has to be balanced too...in a more conventional way, through misfortune and suffering.

In a pure system, this would be unfortunate, but bearable. They would suffer, and Grief would be born, but it would not necessarily consume them. The Incubators' system, and the Soul Gems they created (?), worsen the situation, however. Grief is collected within the Soul Gem, and no safe means of disposal exists besides Grief Seeds...so, if a Magus cannot find the tortured Soul of a Witch to bear that suffering in her place, she too will become a Witch.

We need a way to dispose of that Grief that doesn't involve locking it within the Soul of a human being. We personally can offer that in the immediate, but in the long term...the Incubators presumably created Soul Gems, or at least created the system that does so. If they can create such a thing...we can change it. We can create a variant of Soul Gems that isolates that Grief from the Soul of the Magus, or otherwise disposes of it safely.

That would be much easier if we could find a way to make Soul Gem scanning work...or we had some means to get the original designs out of Kyubey, but we'll find some solution or another, at least.
 
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Rereading the update, I think we should spend the flight to Sendai talking to Sayaka about how these girls were acting.
 
I've been thinking about what a hypothetical best case scenario would look like.
>Automatic/autonomous soul gem cleansing has to be online
>De-witching has to be online
>Ideally, entropy is still held in check

Imagine magical hospitals being distributed around the world like normal hospitals; they're staffed by healing-spec Magi for particularly grievous injuries, equipped with whatever de-witching technology we invent, and act has hubs for grief-cleansing units (i.e. Jyuubeys, whatever form they take), with shielded reservoirs underneath the structures (not unlike a nuclear waste dump) for Kyuubey to collect amassed grief from. Each branch retains a squad of magical girls as guards and to contain and subdue witches that crop so that they can be turned back.

Magical prisons could probably be fairly similar to a normal prison or a high-security school, with the inclusion of anti-magic collars/cuffs and Magi wardens. If someone is absolutely impossible to handle in any other manner, they can be put on ice indefinitely Asunaro-style (memory auditing/brainwashing for resocialization purposes is ethically squicky, but worth consideration).

Since Kyuubey needs a steady supply of Grief to keep the universe running, and gets exponentially more of it from contracts/witch creation (the latter of which will now be incredibly rare) than from basic maintenance, we'll need both more magical girls and active magical girls. In the latter case, magical girl fighting tournaments/Olympics could be organized; they keep people entertained, girls active and expending magic, and serve to continually train and refine their skills, providing Earth with a standing magical army in the event that we ever come into conflict with the Incubators.

In the former case, I eventually want us to break the masquerade in an organized fashion. Legislation can be drawn up regarding the use of magic, and (hopefully the majority of) new contracts can occur in a controlled and secure environment with informed consent. Remember: No matter what kind of ideal society we build, all it takes is one sufficiently powerful wish to fuck things up.

There shouldn't be any real shortage of new recruits, either, with as many people as there are that want to be magical girls or superheroes. Parents and mundanes as a whole will have to lump it: Once the genie's out of the bottle, contracts will happen whether they like it or not, and magical girls will be impossible to ban or otherwise be rid of; they're already fully ingrained into every society on the planet, and entirely disproportionately stronger than mundane militaries. Humans and Puella Magi ultimately coexist as two distinct societies: The only way to deal with the angst of the Puella Magi's condition long-term is for them to accept their post-humanity.

Wishes will continue to drive humanity forward, and once we reach the stars, we can establish ourselves on a more equal footing with the sufficiently-advanced Incubators; we may not necessarily be equals, but we at least won't be their de-facto subjects.

So yeah basically we need to become Satsuki Kiryuin but with more clothes Asunaro on cleavage duty. All of the above is possible without fucking with/up fundamentals of the universe, though conflict will still exist and the system will still require continual maintenance (both of which are good things from the 'combating entropy via magic' Incubator perspective; if no new magi/witches were being created and all the existing ones just sat on the couch all day because they no longer had to hunt, Coob would have to take some kind of drastic measure to keep e.g. the sun from exploding)
 
Sounds reasonable.

I think we should look into making familiars. For one, they may be able to feed on grief directly from the soul gem. But even if they're not, they should be able to have grief pumped into them, eventually turning them into witches without loss of human life. That would make Clear Seeds viable long term, with the major drawback being the creation of the Seed itself would be very dangerous.

It would also give Coobie his quota as far as energy production. Who knows, maybe in 20-30 years Sabrina and her crack team of special ops meguca will be so badass they can witch out multiple familiars at once and bring them down with minimal risk.
 
A Red Letter Day pt. 14
You return your attention to Yuuki, thinking for a second. Is a surname important?

It... kind of is, you guess? It's not unheard of for people to not have surnames, and you can absolutely play up the 'strange foreigner' angle. But it might make things easy for you if you had a surname.

"Uh, one second, Miss Inoue. Uh, Mami?" you say. "What do you think of 'Vee' as a surname?"

"Hmm?" Mami says, soft golden eyes meeting yours. She thinks it over for a second, forehead scrunching adorably. "I think it's a fine nickname?"

You beam at her, and turn back to Yuuki. "'Vee' for a surname. Uh, 'V-E-E', not just the letter 'V'."

"Sure, that won't be a problem," Yuuki says. "Changed your mind?"

"I probably look less suspicious with a surname?" you offer, shrugging. "By the way, uh - did your sister pass on that message about tracking down a phone?"

"That was you," Yuuki says with a scowl tossed over her shoulder at her sister. Yuuna notices the expression, blinks, and then flushes in embarrassment. "I apologise, my sister forgot to mention that it was you. The Kuroki family, correct? That was the name on the phone records."

"Yeah, that'd be them," you agree. "I'm looking for Kuroki Matsuko, should be the daughter of the family?"

"Yes," Yuuki says, pulling a phone out from... somewhere on her costume. It's a high-end model, and very evidently modified with magic judging from the way she just pulled a holographic display out of the screen. You lean forward, fascinated by the way she slides through familiar apps rendered in the air.

"Here," Yuuki says decisively, pulling up a map of Mitakihara and zooming in on a location out to the east. You recognise it, even in glowing, translucent light - you've been there often enough. The old industrial district. "That's where she pulled the battery. Or broke her phone."

"Didn't just run flat by any chance?" you ask, tucking a stray lock of hair behind your ear.

"No, it isn't," Yuuki says with absolute certainty. "Ungraceful shutdown of her phone, terminated mid-push notification. Has to be a battery pull or damage or similar - it can't be her shutting the phone down normally or the battery running out."

"... ah, I see," you say, frowning. Something to follow up on that. "Do I owe you anything for that?"

"Normally, I'd charge a Grief Seed," Yuuki says, rolling her eyes. "Unusual circumstances, however..."

"Ah. Thanks, I appreciate it," you say, and wave back towards the main group, where it seems like conversation's dying down, anyway. "Shall we?"

Yuuki shrugs, and heads over to join the others, whereupon she smacks Yuuna on the shoulder.

"Hey, everyone, hey Sayaka," you say. "Oh, first - Miss Nakano, here." You proffer the Clear Seed to Mika. "I have to warn you - do not let this touch a normal Grief Seed. The Grief Seed will pull any Grief from the Clear Seed and possibly hatch it right there."

Mika snatches the Clear Seed from you, all but vibrating with excitement. "Cool."

"No, not cool," you say. "The Witch hatching part, anyway."

Mika shrugs, pressing the Grief Seed to her Soul Gem and pouting when there's no visible change - her Soul Gem's still essentially clean. You don't miss the way Ayaka and Miyako's eyes follow the movement with envious eyes.

"Anyway..." you say, turning back to the group and folding your arms. "I can understand not wanting a Clear Seed right now. But make no mistake, I plan on distributing them to every group I can reach - and yes, that does include Sendai. I think I can trust them, with Miss Mori in charge of the group now instead of Hamasaki. But maybe you might prefer to have a Clear Seed later, when there are more groups with Clear Seeds?"

Yuuki dips her head in agreement. "That would be... A lot more acceptable," she says, tilting her head slightly to catch Miyako's eyes. The orange haired girl frowns stubbornly, folding her arms.

Not your argument to step into.

"Anyway. Sayaka!" you say, grinning at your friend. "Pick up anything cool?"

"Eh heh heh, kind of?" she says, scrubbing at the back of her hair sheepishly. You can feel the odd twisting of her magic, little knots trailing off the main body like pendants dangling from a necklace.

"My powers are plenty cool," Kimiko says, arching an eyebrow high.

"Yeah, she's got lightning!" Sayaka says, holding her two hands out, palms facing each other.

There's a pop, and then there's suddenly two Sayakas. Both blink in unison, and then fall on their asses.

Aki taps her chin in consideration, propping herself insouciantly against a convenient vent. "Huh. Never had that problem," she muses.

"I think-" both Sayaka's eyes cross. "I think I need to practice. Can I get ri-" There's a sharp pop, and one of the Sayakas vanish. "Oh thank god. That was weird."

You laugh, and lean forward to offer her a hand up. "Got confused over your many, many powers?"

"I think so," Sayaka says, grinning sheepishly at you as she lets you pull her to her feet. "Uhh... Miss Koizumi, do you get double-vision from your clones?"

The girl scratches at her boyishly short hair. "Yes," she says. "But it's easy to deal with. Hit me up if you get better at it, always wondered what it'd be like to fight another cloner."

"Uhh... sure," Sayaka says, looking a little uncomfortable. "Right."

"Heh," you say, stepping forward a little to take the heat off Sayaka. "Speaking of, I don't suppose you guys would like to meet up sometime for non-business stuff? Just for fun?"

"You'll have to come to us," Miyako observes, an interested gleam in her eye as she folds her arms over her chest. The ribbons -cream, orange like her hair, yellow- festooning her dress rustle with the movement. "We can't exactly travel."

"I'm up for it!" Mika says, waving her hand and grinning.

"Yeah, 'course," you say. "Anyway... Mami, Sayaka? Anything else?"

"No," Mami says, taking your arm. Her eyes flicker over to Ayaka for a split second before looking away - Ayaka was her student, wasn't she? She'd warned you to take care of Mami, way back then.

You don't think you've done too badly. There are many, many things you could have done better, but... you haven't done too badly.

You catch Mami's eyes, raising your eyebrows slightly. Does she want to talk to Ayaka?

Mami's smile is a little melancholy, but she shakes her head.

"I'm good!" Sayaka says, mood undimmed despite her confusion with her new crop of powers.

"Then... see you all sometime," you say, nodding at the Ishinomaki girls. "I'm actually trying to work on something more permanent than me having to come by every week to do the cleansing, but I'm not sure when, if ever, I'll succeed. So for now, until next time."

You exchange goodbyes and pile back onto your mobile oppression fortress. You take a moment to form more comfortable seats before sealing up the front again and taking off. You have an enormous amount of Grief with you right now - and even with your vague notion to give it to Kyuubey, the creature hadn't shown up, anyway.

Regardless, controlling it isn't a problem for you, so for now - back to Mitakihara to pick up Nadia, and then onwards to Sendai.

Mami curls up against you with a happy sigh, wrapping her arms around your waist and resting her head on your shoulder.

"Nice girls," Sayaka opines as you zip higher, leaving Ishinomaki behind you. "They uh... seemed a bit scared of you, though."

"Right, I don't think I ever told you the full story, did I?" you say, grinning sheepishly, and start to recount the tale. You start with Sakura, Rin, and Akiko's trip through Mitakihara, and spare a bit of your attention to check in on Nadia - apparently she's finished her second hunt with no problem and is more than happy to wait for a pick up.

"... so naturally, Mami, Kirika, and I kicked their asses," you say, smirking proudly. You'd glossed over exactly what the Sendai trio were in Mitakihara for, of course, and moved on to their supposed ambush in Ishinomaki. "Right, Mami?"

"Mmm," she agrees. "We did."

"Yeah," you say, pursing your lips. "We never did find out the full story behind the whole Kato Setsuko thing. But... yeah."

"'xplains a lot," Sayaka says, rolling her eyes. She'd listened avidly, in between condensing her powers down into the little charms. "They were kind of afraid of you at first."

"Ouch," you say, wincing. "Anyway, what powers do you have there?"

"Uh..." Sayaka holds up the charms, each dangling from a string. "Mami's ribbons, Miss Bennouna's juggernaut power, the clone power, um, geokinesis? Is that a word? Lightning, um... some kind of super-eyesight? Miss Ueda wasn't absolutely clear about it. And hypnosis, I think."

Mami stirs at that last one, eyes darting up to you. Which would mean the hypnosis comes from Ayaka. You sigh quietly, taking her hand between both of yours and intertwining your fingers. You're not going to leave her.

Sayaka falls silent, smart enough to recognise when she'd touched a sore spot.

"Kagome Ayaka was one of Mami's ex-pupils, who left her," you murmur telepathically to your friend. "Touchy subject."

"So that's why she was asking after Mami and you," Sayaka says, a brief frown flickering over her face. "Why'd she leave?"

"I don't know for sure, but you know Mami's insistence on killing all Familiars during a hunt?" you say. "It's a very, very high standard to hold against magical girls who aren't us. Most can't afford it. I'm guessing they disagreed over it."

"Hrrrm." Sayaka scowls, sitting back in her chair and frowning.

The rest of the trip back to Mitakihara is spent in relative silence, suburban sprawl giving way to farmland and then rolling back into the suburbs and familiar skyline of Mitakihara. You pick up Nadia from the spire of the DBJ tower - an easy enough landmark.

The traveller takes a few steps straight up into the air and hops aboard, peering around the Grief structure with interest. She runs her hand over the walls. "This is Grief, yes?"

"Yup, hi Miss Bennouna," you say, tilting your head to follow her movement. Sayaka gives her a wave, and Mami's still nestled comfortably against you.

"Interesting," she says. "We are going now to Sendai?"

Voting opens
[] Head to Sendai
-[] No, something else
[] Who do you go to first?
-[] University group
-[] Sendai group
[] Enchantment along the way?
[] Anything specific to check on at Sendai?
[] Anything specific to talk about on the way?
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)


=====​

You may take it that cleansing and offering Clear Seeds will happen automatically.
 
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Can we take a moment to set up speckled enchantments? Something to suppress the feeling of active grief and then compress what we have into our bag?
 
Mumichan.

Mami curls up against you with a happy sigh, wrapping her arms around your waist and resting her head on your shoulder.

"Nice girls," Sayaka opines as you zip higher, leaving Ishinomaki behind you. "They uh... seemed a bit scared of you, though."

"Right, I don't think I ever told you the full story, did I?" you say, grinning sheepishly, and start to recount the tale. You start with Sakura, Rin, and Akiko's trip through Mitakihara, and spare a bit of your attention to check in on Nadia - apparently she's finished her second hunt with no problem and is more than happy to wait for a pick up.

"... so naturally, Mami, Kirika, and I kicked their asses," you say, smirking proudly. You'd glossed over exactly what the Sendai trio were in Mitakihara for, of course, and moved on to their supposed ambush in Ishinomaki. "Right, Mami?"

"Mmm," she agrees. "We did."

"Yeah," you say, pursing your lips. "We never did find out the full story behind the whole Kato Setsuko thing. But... yeah."

"'xplains a lot," Sayaka says, rolling her eyes. She'd listened avidly, in between condensing her powers down into the little charms. "They were kind of afraid of you at first."

This whole thing happened in a mumihug with a Mami leaning on our shoulder.

*beams happily*
 
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