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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Raiseth said:
Look, my opinion is that it's unfortunate they got involved, but we weren't in the wrong

The situation demanded from us to stop the fighting as quickly as possible, so that it wouldn't escalate to Oriko's worst projections

They fought in a heavily populated area
There were casualties even despite us interfering

I don't believe we could have stopped the fight using just words
Even with the benefit of hindsight, it meant convincing
1) a dictator on a power trip who had allowed her rampant insecurities that appeared after witnessing her friend Witch out to fester and was basically planning to start grabbing Witch Seeds and never ever stop
2) a mercenary group we were unfamiliar with who got hired and paid to do the job with things that you have to use if you don't plan on becoming a people-devouring hole of despair anytime soon
3) other assorted persons
To stop fighting

I, for one, don't have any confidence in our ability to come up with anything to say that could have done that
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Look, fighting in Sendai was the right thing to do, but that doesn't mean every part of that fight was perfectly handled. And that includes how we handled the capture of the Fukushima girls.

It's hard to say whether we could have done better as we were then but, certainly knowing what we know and are capable of now, it's not wrong to wish we could have done better and to strive to do better. Even something as simple as sending a telepathic message that this wouldn't be the end and that they'd be restored after the fight was over might have gone a long way towards preventing the desperation we got after we captured Moe.

(The actual injury I'm not sure we could say anything about given just how quick the fight was and how it went down, but how we handled the capture is another matter.)

Incidentally, we may wish to ask them if us being a grief controller had anything to do with it. Between #milesgloriosus's reaction, someone sending Rionna at us, and the way folks have been disconcertingly deferential to us it seems like there may be something rotten among grief controllers. In which case we should probably know before it comes out to bite us.
 
Jonen C said:
We could still offer "apologies if you feel we used excessive force", a little but humble, a little bit fishing for constructive criticism, a little bit " what would you have done?" (With genuine interest because good best practices for rapid unplanned deescalation are good!)
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Eh
They would have fought to the death

They were doing exactly that before Sabrina appeared

The Phoenixian said:
Incidentally, we may wish to ask them if us being a grief controller had anything to do with it. Between #milesgloriosus's reaction, someone sending Rionna at us, and the way folks have been disconcertingly deferential to us it seems like there may be something rotten among grief controllers. In which case we should probably know before it comes out to bite us.
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There is something rotten, because a normal girefbender cannot just make Grief float around them like some sort of banner

They have to shove it into somewhere else
People
Other Gems
The works
 
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Raiseth said:
There is something rotten, because a normal girefbender cannot just make Grief float around them like some sort of banner

They have to shove it into somewhere else
People
Other Gems
The works
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Yes. I know that Raiseth.

The basic mechanics there doesn't exactly explain the Kagoshima group's fear of grief controllers attacking other grief controllers. Thus it may be wise to look for something deeper.
 
Apologizing for use of excessive force on Moe is probably fine, but apart from that we were mostly defending ourselves and trying to finish things up as cleanly as possible and I don't really see a reason to apologize for that. Due to the group being mercenaries and us being surprise attacked, there also wasn't really a chance to talk it out.

While we could have maybe handled things better with the knowledge we have now, I think we did the best we could given the circumstances and things could have definetely gone a lot worse. Yuki also already alluded to being surprised how nice we were to her teammates in the aftermath, all things considered.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Yes. I know that Raiseth.

The basic mechanics there doesn't exactly explain the Kagoshima group's fear of grief controllers attacking other grief controllers. Thus it may be wise to look for something deeper.
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Ah. Then you got me a little confused here.

Whenever did a Grief controller attack us or ordered someone to attack us?

Because that girl's scared reaction?

Imagine you are a small-time Grief controller
Who heard about that crazy bitch who Wished to control "All da Grief, Muthafucka", and is known to go to other cities and steal their Grief, because Mitakihara is apparently not enough for her ambitions
Wouldn't you be afraid too?
:V

But seriously, the paragraph above, just swap "all da Grief, Muthafucka", to finding out about another Grief controller when you explicitly know ( or think you know ) what controlling Grief means, exactly, "steal their Grief" to "stopped a fight in progress by Waltzing in the middle of it and hitting everyone with Grief, repeatedly, until they made up or stopped being coherent and sane", and "Wouldn't you be afraid too?" to "Wouldn't you be afraid too?"
 
Just gonna mention, if we're serious about trying to minimize excessive force next time it would be great to have a way to shut down people's magic quickly and easily.
Like for example having antimagic enchanted darts we can use grief to throw past our range, and antimagic enchanted duct tape we could materialize right out of 4 space behind someone within our range to stick to them and cover up with grief (so they can't just rip it off).
 
Muramasa said:
They're still mercenaries Kai. They were being paid by the Sendai group to beat us into submission. Also back then Clear Seeds we're just a thought in Sabrina's head at the time and not something we could've offered to out bid Sendai. Talking them down was improbable and we we're kinda busy (perhaps overly so) making sure the university group came out of that fight intact.
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...

We went to Sendai and did what we did to get people to stop hurting each other. In the process, we hurt some people, some of them quite badly.

You say, "They were mercenaries. They were paid to fight us. They knew what they were doing had risks. We were pushed into doing what we did."

And that's true.

And if what we did hadn't hurt anyone in a way they might not have really deserved, maybe I wouldn't be so keen on apologizing.

Mura, we delimbed a teenage girl.

The circumstances at large demand action, up to and including action which we would wish we weren't taking. But just because it's demanded, just because we weren't necessarily in a position to find a better way, doesn't mean we cannot or should not regret + apologize for it.
 
Muramasa said:
Are we formally apologizing for getting Moe pulped and diced up? Yes, we were defending ourselves and yes she broke our arm and would've kept going if not for Mami interrupt but err... getting Tiro Finale'd and getting a limb or two sliced off is pretty excessive for payback.
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Er, no? Go back and read the section. It was absolutely justified--it only came across as overkill in hindsight, which is utterly useless for justifying combat actions.

We should apologize that she had to go through that, but not apologize for doing the right thing and fighting with an appropriate amount of force in defense of ourselves and others. Apologizing for doing justified and morally right things is only going to make us look weak and indecisive.

If we want to come across as competent and reliable allies, we need to give the impression that we're prepared to do to other magical girls exactly what we did to her, if necessary for the defense of ourselves or innocents.

Kaizuki said:
...

We went to Sendai and did what we did to get people to stop hurting each other. In the process, we hurt some people, some of them quite badly.

You say, "They were mercenaries. They were paid to fight us. They knew what they were doing had risks. We were pushed into doing what we did."

And that's true.

And if what we did hadn't hurt anyone in a way they might not have really deserved, maybe I wouldn't be so keen on apologizing.

Mura, we delimbed a teenage girl.

The circumstances at large demand action, up to and including action which we would wish we weren't taking. But just because it's demanded, just because we weren't necessarily in a position to find a better way, doesn't mean we cannot or should not regret + apologize for it.
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In case you forgot, those teenage girls actually killed innocent people, and were trying to "delimb" us.

Considering that they're not in prison or suffering any consequences for that action, they got off remarkably light.

But nonetheless, they were being paid to be the aggressors in a conflict--and to attack during peace negotiations, no less. What happened to them is a good lesson about knowing the situation you're getting into before committing to starting a battle.
 
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[X] enter dork mode.
-[x] turn to Yuki while pointing at shinobu, "she is clearly an incarnate mountain but you said she wasn't."
-[x] ask Ramiel if you can call her Ramiel, don't if she seems uncomfortable with it.
-[x] ask Yuki if we can hug her.
-[x] gush about mumi.
 
I understand the need to do better
Humans just fuck up on regular basis
All the time

If you are a philosopher, then supposedly the capacity to make mistakes is one of the reasons for why we have souls

It's just
Do you blame Mami for the part she played in that fight?
She shot the limb off from one girl
Does it mean she needs to apologize, too?

I'm not saying we don't need to dwell on the past and move to the future, accept our responsibility but acknowledge we are fallible or some shit like this
No

I'm saying that Sabrina doesn't have the capability to go through her life without making mistakes
A fucking goddess made a mistake in this setting, so clearly no one is exempt from it
What doesn't sit well with me is absolving the other from any responsibility in this situation

Asking yourself what you could've done better is a useful exercise, sometimes
But when it boils down to "we could have probably disabled a group of combat-experienced Meguca without any overt injuries to them" it's just plain arrogant

We could have done this, maybe
If we somehow convinced Homura and Kirika to go buddy buddy with us, timestop then Gem them one at a time
Which I don't see how we would gone about, since a lot of valid reasons to let Homu stay in the city were brought up, primarily that she was uncomfortable with getting involved
Even though I wonder whether someone would have not been okay with that either

It's just
There are serious fuck ups when we evidently could have done better
But to go through Sendai without any mistakes or seriously injuring everyone required the level of hindsight and competence Sabrina just doesn't possess, and probably no one does
Mistakes were an inevitable consequence of doing things, basically

Yuki is willing to put it behind
Yuki, the leader of the group whose members we injured
Express regret that we had to hurt them? Fine
Imply that if we had gone through it in other way, we wouldn't even have had to injure them? Vainglorious
Almost Emiya levels of absurdity
Also, again, really arrogant
Almost insulting
They fought against us and then we tell them that hey, if you had done better, they would have folded like a stack of wet tissues and not even gotten injuries worth telling about?
No thanks
 
.... first thought

Tea time... we are a member of Mami Tomoe's group afterall.

Two, tone... polite, but not overly formal... basically polite and casual. Maybe dorky when we move onto Mami and/or science stuff. Rather then apologize about the use of force express your glad they got better.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Er, no? Go back and read the section. It was absolutely justified--it only came across as overkill in hindsight, which is utterly useless for justifying combat actions.

We should apologize that she had to go through that, but not apologize for doing the right thing and fighting with an appropriate amount of force in defense of ourselves and others. Apologizing for doing justified and morally right things is only going to make us look weak and indecisive.

If we want to come across as competent and reliable allies, we need to give the impression that we're prepared to do to other magical girls exactly what we did to her, if necessary for the defense of ourselves or innocents.


In case you forgot, those teenage girls actually killed innocent people, and were trying to "delimb" us.

Considering that they're not in prison or suffering any consequences for that action, they got off remarkably light.

But nonetheless, they were being paid to be the aggressors in a conflict--and to attack during peace negotiations, no less. What happened to them is a good lesson about knowing the situation you're getting into before committing to starting a battle.
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Raiseth said:
I understand the need to do better
Humans just fuck up on regular basis
All the time

If you are a philosopher, then supposedly the capacity to make mistakes is one of the reasons for why we have souls

It's just
Do you blame Mami for the part she played in that fight?
She shot the limb off from one girl
Does it mean she needs to apologize, too?

I'm not saying we don't need to dwell on the past and move to the future, accept our responsibility but acknowledge we are fallible or some shit like this
No

I'm saying that Sabrina doesn't have the capability to go through her life without making mistakes
A fucking goddess made a mistake in this setting, so clearly no one is exempt from it
What doesn't sit well with me is absolving the other from any responsibility in this situation

Asking yourself what you could've done better is a useful exercise, sometimes
But when it boils down to "we could have probably disabled a group of combat-experienced Meguca without any overt injuries to them" it's just plain arrogant

We could have done this, maybe
If we somehow convinced Homura and Kirika to go buddy buddy with us, timestop then Gem them one at a time
Which I don't see how we would gone about, since a lot of valid reasons to let Homu stay in the city were brought up, primarily that she was uncomfortable with getting involved
Even though I wonder whether someone would have not been okay with that either

It's just
There are serious fuck ups when we evidently could have done better
But to go through Sendai without any mistakes or seriously injuring everyone required the level of hindsight and competence Sabrina just doesn't possess, and probably no one does
Mistakes were an inevitable consequence of doing things, basically

Yuki is willing to put it behind
Yuki, the leader of the group whose members we injured
Express regret that we had to hurt them? Fine
Imply that if we had gone through it in other way, we wouldn't even have had to injure them? Vainglorious
Almost Emiya levels of absurdity
Also, again, really arrogant
Almost insulting
They fought against us and then we tell them that hey, if you had done better, they would have folded like a stack of wet tissues and not even gotten injuries worth telling about?
No thanks
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In the interest of not writing a philosophy paper here, suffice to say I see no conflict between both believing that our actions were justified and apologizing for them.

I believe our actions were just and reasonable. I also believe we could have done better. I do not believe that we should have done better. I do wish we had done better.

Make of that whatever you want, I guess.
 
Also guys, since this is a rather friendly and casual vote.... could we maybe try to keep it to tone and approach rather then makong small dissertations?
 
Why are we apologizing anyways? They seem pretty cool with it, sure maybe it wasn't fun to experience but we healed them after and we've been solid allies since.

As far as I'm concerned, all of that is in the past now, so why are we bringing it back up to apologize for it?

Just hang out, introduce yourself, be polite.

Apologies at this juncture are not only hilariously unnecessary but make us look weak-willed.
 
Starting point... need some ideas for actual alliance level topics to cover....

[X] Be polite, but roll with the casual atmosphere and just be your normal friendly self. Besides you have a bird on your shoulder - formality has its limits.
-[X] Express that you're glad none of them seem worse for wear from when you fought.
-[X] Dork out
-[x] Turn to Yuki while pointing at shinobu, "she is clearly an incarnate mountain but you said she wasn't."
-[x] Ask Ramiel if you can call her Ramiel, don't if she seems uncomfortable with it.
-[x] Start gushing if Mami comes up
 
[X] Be polite, be professional, have a plan to hug everyone you meet, but roll with the casual atmosphere and just be your normal friendly self. Besides you have a bird on your shoulder - formality has its limits.
-[X] Express that you're glad none of them seem worse for wear from when you fought.
-[X] Dork out
-[X] Turn to Yuki while pointing at shinobu, "she is clearly an incarnate mountain but you said she wasn't."
-[X] Ask Ramiel if you can call her Ramiel, don't if she seems uncomfortable with it.
-[X] Start gushing if Mami comes up
 
[X] Be polite, but roll with the casual atmosphere and just be your normal friendly self. Besides you have a bird on your shoulder - formality has its limits.
-[X] Express that you're glad none of them seem worse for wear from when you fought.
-[X] Dork out
-[x] Turn to Yuki while pointing at shinobu, "she is clearly an incarnate mountain but you said she wasn't."
-[x] Ask Ramiel if you can call her Ramiel, don't if she seems uncomfortable with it.
-[x] Start gushing if Mami comes up
 
Since Godwinson and Redshirt Army are running for the Council now

Does that mean that Sabrina will be able to say to the Tokyo Gucas something like "As a fellow Councillor, I do not endorse your course of actions?"

Only to be asked what she's a councilor of and answer that she's obviously a councillor of the voices in her head.
 
Raiseth said:
Since Godwinson and Redshirt Army are running for the Council now

Does that mean that Sabrina will be able to say to the Tokyo Gucas something like "As a fellow Councillor, I do not endorse your course of actions?"

Only to be asked what she's a councilor of and answer that she's obviously a councillor of the voices in her head.
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I'm more walking for Council. Vaguely ambling Councilwards.
 
Godwinson said:
I'm more walking for Council. Vaguely ambling Councilwards.
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It is confirmed. Godwinson is secretly working behind the curtains to overthrow Squishy and become the Second Overlord of the Sufficient Velocity, Sublime and Merciful.

Y'all heard it here first, from the lips ( fingertips? ) of Godwinson.

More news at 11.
 
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