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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Crasian01 said:
Because we probably are.

#cynicism
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Their nefariousness count is sky-high, yeah. Under other circumstances, we'd be shutting these people down hard, no question. But it isn't a question of 'right side' - we don't want either side to win.
(More's the pity. Otherwise, we could end this right here and now).
We want the war to end without fatalities (or, failing that, with minimal fatalities), and the Sendai group to grow some social responsibility. Backing off negates our capacity to pursue either of these goals.
 
@Cannongerbil

I would note in your "Additional Notes" that the Sendai Group attempted a take over of Ishinomaki, which almost certainly has ramifications that echo beyond purely territorial conflict.

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FlatlineAskari said:
Their nefariousness count is sky-high, yeah. Under other circumstances, we'd be shutting these people down hard, no question. But it isn't a question of 'right side' - we don't want either side to win.
(More's the pity. Otherwise, we could end this right here and now).
We want the war to end without fatalities (or, failing that, with minimal fatalities), and the Sendai group to grow some social responsibility. Backing off negates our capacity to pursue either of these goals.
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Mmmm, I'm not sure I agree. Can you elaborate on why backing off negates our capacity to pursue either goal?
 
Thinking about it, it was almost certainly a Masami-like situation with the Tokyo University group, where healing was refused AND then witching happened once Sendai left. Definitely a grudge
 
Crasian01 said:
Mmmm, I'm not sure I agree. Can you elaborate on why backing off negates our capacity to pursue either goal?
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Both goals require them to pursue a course of action they otherwise wouldn't - left to their own devices, they'll remain in a state of conflict and, in all likelihood, continue engaging in practices we disapprove of. We need influence.
We have three means of influencing them. We can offer them services, we can threaten them, and we can use the fact that we just rescued them. The first and third constitute a fairly intimate relationship, the second isn't a particularly safe bet. We want more operational control, not less.
 
Crap, I posted the wrong version of the information list. Editing.

Edit: And after some wrangling with the rich text editor, done. The information is now up to date. Everyone who read the old version, please take the time to reread the list. This is a big update, and ALOT of our previous information needed revision.
 
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FlatlineAskari said:
Both goals require them to pursue a course of action they otherwise wouldn't - left to their own devices, they'll remain in a state of conflict and, in all likelihood, continue engaging in practices we disapprove of. We need influence.
We have three means of influencing them. We can offer them services, we can threaten them, and we can use the fact that we just rescued them. The first and third constitute a fairly intimate relationship, the second isn't a particularly safe bet. We want more operational control, not less.
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Well to be completely honest, we could easily threaten them simply by neutralizing Akiko and Sakura, then taking Rin as "ours", and forcing the remainder of the Sendai Group to listen to us or face similar consequences. No, this is not a good plan, but it's a possible one, especially since it gives us quite a lot of control (if temporarily). Bad for the long term.

I don't think we're going to be able to pull "We saved you, you owe us" card on this. While it's a sort of political capital, it's a very specific sort of political capital. Because we didn't make this personal, then we can't make a personal appeal. We can only make a business appeal, and getting the Sendai Group to stop doing questionable practices on a large scale is going to end up needing a very good business appeal.

We can't offer services only to Sendai without being fully partisan. Therefore, it's obligatory we help Ishinomaki and such as well, but the result of that is both sides getting more power to throw around and kill each other with. Since it's clearly a very personal conflict, then we can't go "give us peace or we will stop cleansing", as the result is going to be "fuck you I will kill bitches on my own then". This is going to just add more fuel to the fire on both sides until such time as we stop cleansing, and then it's going to be a case of everyone either ignoring us or trying to strongarm us into working only for them.

I think that staying more aloof gives us more operational flexibility. While at face value we want to try and modify behaviour directly, I argue that it's actually more effective to minimize our impact on the behaviour of the factions and get to know them via gathering of intel. In this manner, we can figure out who are the key players, what motivates them, how to convince them to listen to us, and, ultimately, what is necessary to resolve this diplomatically.

This leads me to conclude that, actually, it should be possible for us to off our services and just be completely aloof. It will be somewhat more difficult since we helped the Sendai Faction just now, but with a bit of cleverness we might be able to convince the Ishinomaki Faction that we're not here just to side with the Sendai Faction. We need to do a good job with pricing to make it seem like we're not gouging anyone for cleanses, but if we can pull off a sufficiently Drebin-like vibe here, we could easily begin gathering data and forming our own plans.

Hmm... it would help if we were also a sort of mobile bar. Just have a bottle of hard liquor in the pack, for if people need a drink and a sympathetic ear?
 
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Ok, Sakura killed the clone. Sakura also admits to killing several more of the clones earlier. Assuming the clone's memories are returned to the original, the MG in question should know that the actual attack is from the same individual that keeps killing her. On the other hand, she'll also have seen all three of us armed and waiting for her, and can report that information back to the others.

The new girl crests the neighbouring building, frilly yellow dress flaring out around her as she leaps. You see shock cross the girl's face.
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One of:
Shock that the expected witch was a group of MGs.
Shock that there were more individuals than expected.
Shock that Sakura and Rin weren't where she expected them to be.
Shock that she recognized someone in particular (Mami?).

Will presume one of the lesser versions for now.

Akiko closes her eyes, tilting her head back up at the sky. "We attempted to... aggressively acquire their territory, once."
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That question one would immediately ask is, "Why?". Ishinomaki is a significant distance from Sendai. All of the Sendai group's homes should be in Sendai. The University group appears to be at least mildly terrified of them.

If one is going to expand territory, it's natural to expand out into adjacent areas, which should include Mitakihara — Mami. With only a single magical girl defending the territory (or maybe two, if it was when Kyouko was with her), it would seem far simpler to make a play for Mitakihara than to bypass it entirely and head to Ishinomaki.

So what is present in Ishinomaki that would draw their interest?

Akiko gives you an evaluating look. "Negotiations, and healing."
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Negotiations. Essentially, there's something they want that either the Ishinomaki group has, or is present in Ishinomaki. Something within this territory is valuable, enough for them to try to take over the territory first, and negotiate (even after being rebuffed in a war) second.

Alternatively, Ishinomaki could have requested negotiations with Akiko in order to spring the trap. They would still have to have something Akiko would actually want, though, for her to enter their territory like that, given the mutual past. It still feels like the only way they could do this is to open up the possibility of offering Sendai what they were after in the first place.

"I suspect the University group was convinced to do this by the Ishinomaki Group,"
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While the initial thought is that this seems to be a lie, it might not be. The University group has been planning this for at least a year, but even at that point they were nervous about the whole thing. From Mami's impressions, I'd guess that they don't have the strength/motivation to properly stand up to the Sendai group on their own, but if someone was backing them up they'd be more amenable.

At the same time, both groups know that they can't deal with Sendai as a whole, which is why they had to bide their time for an opportunity when the group was split.

With only 4 in the University group, they probably needed to wait until Akiko was out of the territory to feel they had a decent chance. 4 vs 2 on the Sendai front, ?? vs 3 on the Ishinomaki front.

Actually, wait. Need to calculate, since I can't find any explicit numbers for Ishinomaki.

There are 22 total girls in this fight. We know Sendai has 5, and University has 4, which means 13 between the other two. If Fukushima has 6, that leaves 7 in Ishinomaki, which makes a bit more sense.

So the Ishinomaki front was 4 vs 2 for Rin/Sakura, and 3 vs 1 for Akiko.

In any case, balancing the numbers clearly needs Akiko in Ishinomaki for the group effort to have a chance. If Akiko was still in Sendai, the University group wouldn't be able to take them on. Thus, our pulling Akiko out of Sendai advanced the timeline. Oriko was vague about when it 'originally' happened, and even advancing it one day would count, technically.


Putting together more thoughts on how this affects goals and objectives.
 
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Kinematics said:
Ok, Sakura killed the clone. Sakura also admits to killing several more of the clones earlier. Assuming the clone's memories are returned to the original, the MG in question should know that the actual attack is from the same individual that keeps killing her. On the other hand, she'll also have seen all three of us armed and waiting for her, and can report that information back to the others.



One of:
Shock that the expected witch was a group of MGs.
Shock that there were more individuals than expected.
Shock that Sakura and Rin weren't where she expected them to be.
Shock that she recognized someone in particular (Mami?).

Will presume one of the lesser versions for now.



That question one would immediately ask is, "Why?". Ishinomaki is a significant distance from Sendai. All of the Sendai group's homes should be in Sendai. The University group appears to be at least mildly terrified of them.

If one is going to expand territory, it's natural to expand out into adjacent areas, which should include Mitakihara — Mami. With only a single magical girl defending the territory (or maybe two, if it was when Kyouko was with her), it would seem far simpler to make a play for Mitakihara than to bypass it entirely and head to Ishinomaki.

So what is present in Ishinomaki that would draw their interest?



Negotiations. Essentially, there's something they want that either the Ishinomaki group has, or is present in Ishinomaki. Something within this territory is valuable, enough for them to try to take over the territory first, and negotiate (even after being rebuffed in a war) second.

Alternatively, Ishinomaki could have requested negotiations with Akiko in order to spring the trap. They would still have to have something Akiko would actually want, though, for her to enter their territory like that, given the mutual past. It still feels like the only way they could do this is to open up the possibility of offering Sendai what they were after in the first place.



While the initial thought is that this seems to be a lie, it might not be. The University group has been planning this for at least a year, but even at that point they were nervous about the whole thing. From Mami's impressions, I'd guess that they don't have the strength/motivation to properly stand up to the Sendai group on their own, but if someone was backing them up they'd be more amenable.

At the same time, both groups know that they can't deal with Sendai as a whole, which is why they had to bide their time for an opportunity when the group was split.

With only 4 in the University group, they probably needed to wait until Akiko was out of the territory to feel they had a decent chance. 4 vs 2 on the Sendai front, ?? vs 3 on the Ishinomaki front.

Actually, wait. Need to calculate, since I can't find any explicit numbers for Ishinomaki.

There are 22 total girls in this fight. We know Sendai has 5, and University has 4, which means 13 between the other two. If Fukushima has 6, that leaves 7 in Ishinomaki, which makes a bit more sense.

So the Ishinomaki front was 4 vs 2 for Rin/Sakura, and 3 vs 1 for Akiko.

In any case, balancing the numbers clearly needs Akiko in Ishinomaki for the group effort to have a chance. If Akiko was still in Sendai, the University group wouldn't be able to take them on. Thus, our pulling Akiko out of Sendai advanced the timeline. Oriko was vague about when it 'originally' happened, and even advancing it one day would count, technically.


Putting together more thoughts on how this affects goals and objectives.
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Before you continue: Seriously, start using the Spoiler Boxes. Your analysis is well reasoned, but it's both long and difficult to read because you write it stream-of-consciousness style. Organize it into sections before you post, and then put it into a Spoiler Box with a highly descriptive title. This way, people can figure out in general what you're trying to say, and then read the specifics on their own leisure.
 
[x] "Negotiations? What negotiations? You fought a war against these guys in the past. What possible reason could you have for wading back into this place?"
-[x] "Why the hell would you guys even want their territory anyway? Sendai isn't even anywhere close to Ishinomaki, and with the Healing business you guys have going on, gathering grief seeds should be of little issue to you. What, were you looking for a vacation home or something?"
-[x] Any more information on the Ishinomaki group? Powers, skillsets, that sort of thing.
[x] Assuming nothing important comes up during this line of questioning:
-[x] What else can you tell me about the University group members? The powers? Any prior "interactions" that would cause them to willingly ally themselves with the Ishinomaki group?

As much as I'd like to make use of Crasian's suggested vote, I seriously doubt there will be a chance to have Kirika trip like that. For starters, there is no need to have us walk to a safer spot when Sakura can just teleport us, and I'm pretty sure that the ruse will be discovered pretty quickly, what with Rin being a dedicated healer and all. As in, there probably won't be enough time to trade more than a couple of sentences, if that.
 
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Crasian01 said:
Well to be completely honest, we could easily threaten them simply by neutralizing Akiko and Sakura, then taking Rin as "ours", and forcing the remainder of the Sendai Group to listen to us or face similar consequences. No, this is not a good plan, but it's a possible one, especially since it gives us quite a lot of control (if temporarily). Bad for the long term.
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We might achieve similar results without any offensive action at all. We have a lot of leverage at this point; the threat of joining the other side is a compelling one.
I don't think we're going to be able to pull "We saved you, you owe us" card on this. While it's a sort of political capital, it's a very specific sort of political capital. Because we didn't make this personal, then we can't make a personal appeal. We can only make a business appeal, and getting the Sendai Group to stop doing questionable practices on a large scale is going to end up needing a very good business appeal.
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Or a coup. "I'll protect you, but in exchange, you answer to me" is a reasonably acceptable outcome, and not implausible - remember, Masami was offering in-kind services for her healing.
We can't offer services only to Sendai without being fully partisan. Therefore, it's obligatory we help Ishinomaki and such as well, but the result of that is both sides getting more power to throw around and kill each other with. Since it's clearly a very personal conflict, then we can't go "give us peace or we will stop cleansing", as the result is going to be "fuck you I will kill bitches on my own then". This is going to just add more fuel to the fire on both sides until such time as we stop cleansing, and then it's going to be a case of everyone either ignoring us or trying to strongarm us into working only for them.
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I think that staying more aloof gives us more operational flexibility. While at face value we want to try and modify behaviour directly, I argue that it's actually more effective to minimize our impact on the behaviour of the factions and get to know them via gathering of intel. In this manner, we can figure out who are the key players, what motivates them, how to convince them to listen to us, and, ultimately, what is necessary to resolve this diplomatically.
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We are unquestionably partisan in the eyes of the opposition, at this point, and our primary objective is to radically alter behavior quickly. We should work with what we have.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
We might achieve similar results without any offensive action at all. We have a lot of leverage at this point; the threat of joining the other side is a compelling one.

Or a coup. "I'll protect you, but in exchange, you answer to me" is a reasonably acceptable outcome, and not implausible - remember, Masami was offering in-kind services for her healing.



We are unquestionably partisan in the eyes of the opposition, at this point, and our primary objective is to radically alter behavior quickly. We should work with what we have.
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Re: First point: Can you explain in more detail? I'm not sure I follow, and what I am understanding doesn't seem reasonable.

Re: Coup: ....We could do that now, actually. We could hash something out with Akiko, who would then potentially force Sakura to along with it. Or we would have to find a way to Tame Sakura, but maybe using a Kirika against her would work?

Re: Partisanship: Well, blatant lies are always a possibility. The capacity for us to maintain that facade now is the question. Still, ultimately, I don't think we can offer our services in any way without getting both a clearer picture of both the current battle situation AND the motivations behind the conflict. We really need to find a way to get Ishinomaki to tell us why they want to kill Sendai so badly.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
Or a coup. "I'll protect you, but in exchange, you answer to me" is a reasonably acceptable outcome, and not implausible - remember, Masami was offering in-kind services for her healing.
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The issue is that Sakura definitely won't accept that, and as we've seen from the incident with Masami, Akiko has a good deal less influence over Sakura than she would like. Even if we did get Akiko on board with this plan, if Sakura decides to just grab whoever is willing to follow her and head off, the war still continues, and all we've succeeded in doing is saving Akiko and whoever else she manages to convince.

This plan also holds the risk that we might very well find ourself fighting against the Ishinomaki and Tohoku group, because I guarantee you that they will not simply accept this plan at face value. This is not a rational conflict by any stretch of the imagination, and they won't be satisfied with what is essentially incarceration, especially by a party they don't trust and for all they know could be in cahoots with the Sendai group.
 
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Cannongerbil said:
The issue is that Sakura definitely won't accept that, and as we've seen from the incident with Masami, Akiko has a good deal less influence over Sakura than she would like. Even if we did get Akiko on board with this plan, if Sakura decides to just grab whoever is willing to follow her and head off, the war still continues, and all we've succeeded in doing is saving Akiko and whoever else she manages to convince.

This plan also holds the risk that we might very well find ourself fighting against the Ishinomaki and Tohoku group, because I guarantee you that they will not simply accept this plan at face value. This is not a rational conflict by any stretch of the imagination, and they won't be satisfied with what is essentially incarceration, especially by a party they don't trust and for all they know could be in cahoots with the Sendai group.
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Honestly, I am hoping for a situation where we can wrest Rin from Sendai's control. If we can somehow convince Rin to join Mitakihara, we will Win Many Things from a strategic standpoint.
 
Playing the peaceful coup only works if we can offer Sendai what they want. By my reckoning, there's definitely something that they want, but it's not our power (though they certainly won't turn that down). Since they're being secretive about it, we need more information before we can plausibly play that hand.

Random thought that came to mind of what it is:
We know the Sendai group used to be 6 (then 5, 4, 5). Ishinomaki might be holding the grief seed of one of the magical girls that used to be in the Sendai group (we never did find out when or how their numbers dropped) — a reminder of an important friend? Doesn't explain why they fought them for the territory in the first place, though.

Standard approach isn't going to get us answers. Need to think up a new line of attack.
 
Crasian01 said:
Re: First point: Can you explain in more detail? I'm not sure I follow, and what I am understanding doesn't seem reasonable.
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If I'm reading things right, what Askari is suggesting that we use the threat of joining the other side as a method to get the Sendai group to acquiesce to our demands. The Sendai group know, better than any other, what an overwhelming advantage we can provide to any faction in a meguca war, and they also know first hand of our combat abilities, so we won't have an issue convincing them that us joining the other faction will utterly doom them.

The problem we run into is that the Sendai crew isn't the aggressors in this conflict. They are the defenders. I'm pretty sure that they would like nothing more than for the war to end, but there isn't really much they can do. As long as their opposition is willing to continue the battle, all they can do is either continue to defend their territory, or abondon their turf and run away. Guess which one they'll take?

Crasian01 said:
Honestly, I am hoping for a situation where we can wrest Rin from Sendai's control. If we can somehow convince Rin to join Mitakihara, we will Win Many Things from a strategic standpoint.
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It's possible, but I don't really see the strategic value of getting Rin over to our side. Sure, having a dedicated healer that isn't a timebomb is nice, but it still doesn't do anything to help us stop the war, unless you want us to kill of the rest of the Sendai group.
 
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Cannongerbil said:
If I'm reading things right, what Askari is suggesting that we use the threat of joining the other side as a method to get the Sendai group to acquiesce to our demands. The Sendai group know, better than any other, what an overwhelming advantage we can provide to any faction in a meguca war, and they also know first hand of our combat abilities.

The problem we run into is that the Sendai crew isn't the aggressors in this conflict. They are the defenders. I'm pretty sure that they would like nothing more than for the war to end, but there isn't really much they can do. As long as their opposition is willing to continue the battle, all they can do is either continue to defend their territory, or abondon their turf and run away. Guess which one they'll take?
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Are we sure they're the defenders? I feel dubious about this.
 
CG has much of the important stuff down, but -
Crasian01 said:
Re: First point: Can you explain in more detail? I'm not sure I follow, and what I am understanding doesn't seem reasonable.
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Consensus is, broadly speaking, that their actions were intolerable and we can't allow them to reoffend under any circumstances, right?
There are a couple of routes to that that we could take. We can't take their word for it, but we could gain oversight. Or, if they won't accept that, we could jump ship and help shut them down by force.
A new boss is much more appealing when it's that or a shallow grave.

Re: Coup: ....We could do that now, actually. We could hash something out with Akiko, who would then potentially force Sakura to along with it. Or we would have to find a way to Tame Sakura, but maybe using a Kirika against her would work?
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Cannongerbil said:
The issue is that Sakura definitely won't accept that, and as we've seen from the incident with Masami, Akiko has a good deal less influence over Sakura than she would like. Even if we did get Akiko on board with this plan, if Sakura decides to just grab whoever is willing to follow her and head off, the war still continues, and all we've succeeded in doing is saving Akiko and whoever else she manages to convince.
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We can almost certainly stop Sakura from skipping out on us, in the immediate, tactical sense. If we can't convince her to be protected, though - regrettably, we probably can't protect her.
This plan also holds the risk that we might very well find ourself fighting against the Ishinomaki and Tohoku group, because I guarantee you that they will not simply accept this plan at face value. This is not a rational conflict by any stretch of the imagination, and they won't be satisfied with what is essentially incarceration, especially by a party they don't trust and for all they know could be in cahoots with the Sendai group.
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This is a fair point, and a significant structural risk. However, our presence on the Sendai side does greatly increase their bargaining power, on both the carrot and stick sides, and our taking a command role might help convince Ishinomaki and Tohoku that they're not the same bunch of murderhobos. We can but hope.
Re: Partisanship: Well, blatant lies are always a possibility. The capacity for us to maintain that facade now is the question. Still, ultimately, I don't think we can offer our services in any way without getting both a clearer picture of both the current battle situation AND the motivations behind the conflict. We really need to find a way to get Ishinomaki to tell us why they want to kill Sendai so badly.
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I think we must assume that our facade is compromised at this point, and I think that we we need to present ourselves as interventionist in some sense in order to change the situation both enough and quickly enough.
Edit: I can't keyboards. :/
 
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Crasian01 said:
Are we sure they're the defenders? I feel dubious about this.
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Everything we've seen so far seems to suggest that.

Three of them members are locked in combat with the Ishino group, while at the same time, the members they have left back in Sendai are fighting with the Tohoku group. The chances of both sendai groups individually deciding to pick a fight with two different groups around the same time is quite low, especially when they don't have the advantage in numbers and for that matter lack any advantage over their opponents as far as I can tell.

In addition, the battle is taking place while the Ishinomaki and Tohoku group are in a position of strength, while Sendai is divided and their reinforcements have yet to be called in. Also factor in that the Sendai group in Ishino is trying to get out of the city rather than staying to fight after we came in, and I find it very unlikely that the Sendai group are the instigators.

They might have planted the seeds behind this war, but they are most likely not the guys who fired the first shot.
 
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[x] Telepathy Akiko: You'll be asking more about that later. But not in present company.
[x] What can you tell me about the Ishinomaki group?
[x] (To Akiko) Alright, what happened specifically? Rin was on her healing circuit. You we're conducting negotiations for...?
-[x] What happened and when did this suddenly break into fighting?
-[x] Who was Rin healing and did she finish doing so?
[x] How many groups are involved, that you're aware of so far?
 
FlatlineAskari said:
Consensus is, broadly speaking, that their actions were intolerable and we can't allow them to reoffend under any circumstances, right?
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That's part of the issue. We don't know exactly what they did to earn all this ire. It could be something as innocuous as the grudge from the time they attacked the Ishino crew, or it could be something as unforgivable as deliberately letting a girl witch out, or it could be something like hogging all the best hunting spots in Sendai. Any of those cases are equally possible given that the participants are teenage girls, and depending on the exact reason, our approach is going to have to change dramatically.
 
Cannongerbil said:
That's part of the issue. We don't know exactly what they did to earn all this ire. It could be something as innocuous as the grudge from the time they attacked the Ishino crew, or it could be something as unforgivable as deliberately letting a girl witch out, or it could be something like hogging all the best hunting spots in Sendai. Any of those cases are equally possible given that the participants are teenage girls, and depending on the exact reason, our approach is going to have to change dramatically.
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Right, but that's a question of how difficult it'll be to make the other side forget about it and how strenuously we disapprove, not whether we do. Trying to seize a city alone is heinously uncool.
 
We should consider asking Mami's opinion on this. She has a lot of experience with MG territory disputes and such.
 
Potential movement:

Stay with Sendai here
Go with Sendai back to Sendai
Go with Sendai back to Mitakihara (location?)
Go with Sendai back to Ishinomaki
Leave Sendai to their own devices while we:
-a) head back to Mitakihara
-b) head back to Ishinomaki
-c) head to Sendai/Tohoku
-d) covertly trail Sendai (how?)
Split up (how?)


Each of these movements correspond to a mode of thought on how to proceed. If you were to take your gut reaction on which one to follow, which would you pick?
 
[x] Telepathy Akiko: You'll be asking more about that later. But not in present company.
[x] What can you tell me about the Ishinomaki group?
[x] (To Akiko) Alright, what happened specifically? Rin was on her healing circuit. You we're conducting negotiations for...?
-[x] What happened and when did this suddenly break into fighting?
-[x] Who was Rin healing and did she finish doing so?
[x] How many groups are involved, that you're aware of so far?
 
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