this is honestly one of those issues I have trouble getting to grips with.... partly since in this quest dewitching is one of the issues I've had trouble keeping on top of.
this is honestly one of those issues I have trouble getting to grips with.... partly since in this quest dewitching is one of the issues I've had trouble keeping on top of.
[x] Fill Yuki in on the background info:
-[x] Explain how seeds "go to sleep" when you cleanse them.
-[x] Note the similarity between how Clear Seeds and Soul Gems interact with "normal" Grief Seeds.
[x] You think you might be able to crack dewitching. You're aware it's a longshot, but your powers *are* unprecedented.
-[x] You've spoken to Nadia, so you know the idea has a - likely earned - bad reputation. You're taking things slowly, and you won't compromise on ethics or safety.
[x] Briefly summarize your experiments in feeding clear seeds hope and their results.
[x] One of the things you told Airi to get her to surrender was that you would work on finding a way to dewitch her friend.
-[x] You'll defer to Yuki on this: You were considering asking Airi to attempt to channel her own hope into Yuuri's grief seed. Does Yuki think she can make sure Airi is contained if you temporarily remove the antimagic bracelet?
So I think the actual mechanics of dewitching here are of much less importance than the who of it all. Trying one kind of approach and it failing or needing massive adjustment is entirely likely. Beyond that, our focus here really shouldn't be our shiny new technique --- let's face it how many people have come in with the new hype thing and then failed miserably? Rather I think our focus should be establishing our own personal trustworthiness and the ethics and responsibility of our approach to the issue as a whole.
So I'm going to avoid making our methods the first thing we talk about here, instead putting it as one point among many.
[X] Preface:
-[X] You became a magical girl to help other magical girls. Your first priorities are your friends and keeping as many people as possible alive, healthy, and happy, but somewhere after that you intend to turn witches back into people again. Clear seeds, you hope, may provide a path to that.
[X] Core points:
-[X] You intend to be as sane, safe, and ethical as possible about this. You're not desperate or in a hurry and your power means you shouldn't have to be.
-[X] This is something she has a right to know both as your ally, and as Anri's guard.
-[X] Explain why you think you have a chance, in as much detail as she desires.
-[X] Address her comments and concerns. Offer to make her as involved in discussions and with Anri as she wishes to be.
[X]Potential specifics:
-[X] Briefly summarize your experiments. Use the same explanation of your efforts you gave Nadia. Include the inner activity of grief seeds, how it changes when cleared, and the effects you've seen from filling them with magic.
-[X] Even if it doesn't work out for actually restoring them, you believe that clear seeds at least aren't suffering anymore, and you intend to carry that standard of ethics towards any attempts you make.
-[X] You've spoken to Nadia, and you're heard some of the horror stories and why dewitching has a bad reputation. It's part of why you intend to be cautious and to listen to any advice others have in doing so.
-[X] One of the things you told Anri to get her to surrender was that you would work on finding a way to dewitch her friend.
-[X] No, you will not suddenly recall her clear seed because you succeeded. The only reasons you'll ask are if you've found a major problem with them or if you believe you have a grief seed substitute that can replace them entirely, and even then that would be her choice.
-[X] Pull from Vote In Abeyance as appropriate.
[X] Continue to Vote In Abeyance
@Aranfan: We've already confirmed that Yuki knows the witchbomb during our first meeting.
Also if anybody would like to chip in a bit more we're most of the way to replacing Mami's art tablet so that we can get art of some stuff like the Mami-Homu-Brina hugs from last night IC. There's something like $225 unlisted (got sent through alternative channels) and I have reason to believe another lump sum is getting tossed in tonight, so if you're reading this and you'd care to chip in five, ten bucks, that might well be the remainder of what we need.
Signal boosting this. Mami, aka Arcadian Phoenix here, is an amazing artist, responsible for much of our best fanart including the one below, and deserves our support.
Beyond that, our focus here really shouldn't be our shiny new technique --- let's face it how many people have come in with the new hype thing and then failed miserably?
Probably a bunch, but this shiny new technique is still the most important thing. We don't need to convince her that dewitching is desirable or that we think we're doing the right thing in how we're pursuing it, she knows those already. We need to convince her that what we are in fact doing isn't some Mengele bullshit, and that's best accomplished by telling her right from the start what we are in fact doing.
Please add on a note to indicate that we're also working toward figuring out a grief-seed substitute, since that would reassure her more than just an assurance that we won't try to take it back and leave her empty-handed. Beyond that--
Probably a bunch, but this shiny new technique is still the most important thing. We don't need to convince her that dewitching is desirable or that we think we're doing the right thing in how we're pursuing it, she knows those already. We need to convince her that what we are in fact doing isn't some Mengele bullshit, and that's best accomplished by telling her right from the start what we are in fact doing.
Added a bit to the potential specifics section of the vote in edit:
-[] Even if it doesn't work out, You believe that clear seeds at least aren't suffering anymore, and you intend to carry that standard of ethics in any attempt you make.
Please add on a note to indicate that we're also working toward figuring out a grief-seed substitute, since that would reassure her more than just an assurance that we won't try to take it back and leave her empty-handed. Beyond that--
-[] No, you will not suddenly recall her clear seed because you succeeded. The only reasons you'll ask are if you've found a major problem with them or if you believe you have a grief seed substitute that can replace them entirely, and even then that would be her choice.
I've been thinking something else that might help is if we set out what are our fail states are, things that we won't see as sucesses even if they sort of work, dead ends in our research as you will, as well as things that we are willing to accept, because we don't know where this will end up, and we might have to change focus or tactics or have some intermediate steps or come to terms with the fact that a perfect solution doesn't exist
We should try to avoid something like kazumi magica where we end up not bringing back the old person but making an entirely new person, not just cause it means we didn't bring them back but also because of the philisophical/moral dilemma of having a brand new person that even if we later figure out how dewitching actualy works, it would just make a paradox of threse two people being unable to exist at the same time
Another fail state, though one not as bad, is if they don't have their memories, thst is something we can work around and help them through because hey, amnesia is a thing in the real world and there are treatments for it and help for people with memory loss, with magic we might even be able to help them recover their memories
Next, the worst state is if we come up with something that works buy requires something unethical or some sort of sacrifice, because we ate doing this to save everyone and if we come up with something that requires suffering then we failed big time
If we are able to clear her for the metabomb (or are able to skate around it) we should say that we know it is at least sort of possible, and hint towards the events of kazumi magica, because that right there us proof that it isn't impossible at the very least
The general impression I got is to figure out how to create Wraiths and pivot that to creating Grief Cubes, with a possibility of creating extremely high capacity versions using space warping magic.
The general impression I got is to figure out how to create Wraiths and pivot that to creating Grief Cubes, with a possibility of creating extremely high capacity versions using space warping magic.
The general impression I got is to figure out how to create Wraiths and pivot that to creating Grief Cubes, with a possibility of creating extremely high capacity versions using space warping magic.
There's also the problem that Wraiths were created by the universe/Karmic Destiny/whatever, throwing a hissy fit at Madokami rendering all but two witches nonexistent (those two witches being UKG and Homulily). There will not be any wraiths unless we piss off reality in that specific way, or we hop to a timeline where somebody already has.
The lead-in about "first priorities are our friends" is precisely matching Yuki's value proposition. ::thumbsup:: @The Phoenixian
A bit less focused is preparing for a full description of our work on de-witching. It is our subject - but see it from her perspective. Yuki isn't (yet?) trying to science away the world system.
We need to be able to discuss any of our experiments, but if we let her get a word in edgewise I expect practical concerns to quickly take over. The possible conflict with Soujos belongs in the agenda, and particularly the way we are considering the hostage logistics. Perhaps how that might tie in with other groups is important as well. We should seek her advice regarding body manufacture, and the complications of returning any girls we heal to their homes.
Yuki has a certain type of social horizon, so political and strategic discussion is more her speed. Unless it affects her home, detailed geekery is more of a conversational filler.
The exception to prove that rule is in "developing Grief Seed alternatives." Glad to see that is on the page. As our early adopter, I think she will want to hear what we are intending to do with that.
My take on that direction is in developing a way to train with someone else, and literally communicate some of our magic. If we noticed well during the prior enchanting session, there is a bit of unexpected flexibility. Wish Magic is personal, but that may not forbid growing some ability in others - it's exactly the situation we need. One Sabrina is not enough. The threshold to cross is "enchanting contact range Grief kinesis." Every Witch has this skill as a passive. They can draw in Grief from a Soul Gem. Therefore, every Magical Girl has this possibility. If it can be externalized while still human, the resulting enchantment can form the core of a Grief container. Finding and stabilizing other girls to learn this should be a goal. That would be the prototype of cleansing for all, without a victimized soul intermediate. Said container can later be emptied by a full Grief controller, forming an ecosystem and granting them a higher purpose.
I'm treating them more seriously than we treated Rionna. We need to be proactive in finding them and we need to body kill them as soon as we do instead of taking the time to degem them and giving them an opportunity to sword someone to death. I just don't see the point in worrying about if they take a hostage because the answer is the same: they're too dangerous to be given time to do anything.
You know, how likely is it that the Soujos are collecting soul jems so that they don't Witch out, cause without us, at least a few of the girls she 'collected' would have Witched. It would make more sense as a motive to try to prevent girls from suffering.
