Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
fett -> feet
Minor typo.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
The disclaimers are what Yuki would be waiting to hear about, when we talk de-witching. I think this flows best from mentioning our conflict with the Soujous, and extends through mentioning we need a body shop, of a full medical environment, for the Soul Gems we anticipate.
Asking the present members of the Fukushima Group, and not Yuki alone is also a refinement.
Before we talk at Anri, we need to figure out if we can listen to her. By listening to her.
Asking the present members of the Fukushima Group, and not Yuki alone is also a refinement.
Before we talk at Anri, we need to figure out if we can listen to her. By listening to her.
More than likely, we embody the sum of the remainders of a series of differential equations tangent to the soul manifolds of every sub-adult female in the simulation.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
So, something just came up in a conversation, and I think it needs to be considered by the thread at large.
So, in theory, you can clear a grief seed without someone like Sabrina around. It would take a some doing though, and a lot of grief seeds.
Get a classical grief controller and you can transfer grief from one seed to another. And --- as a bonus someone doing that may or may not know --- once enough of an imbalance has been made, the process will no longer require that grief controller to sustain. The half-cleared seed will further clear itself on its own once in contact with any normal seed.
Of course, that would likely take quite a lot of doing. Possibly hundreds or thousands of seeds would be needed. We don't have hard numbers on just how "overfull" a grief seed can get, but I wouldn't imagine it being so much as to need less than hundreds and hundreds of seeds.
But you know... we've actually seen a witchbombed girl, one who's backstory would give them a vested interest in dewitching, gather up hundreds and hundreds of seeds.
Akiko in Sendai.
It would explain why she was both so ruthless, and so wide-ranging, in her efforts to acquire grief seeds. Why shill out Rin, and tax the Sendai residents to death, and everything else, when just one of those things would otherwise be enough?
What's more, and rereading the arc to get things straight, the moment Sendai knew Mitakihara had someone who could cleanse soul gems, Akiko came running. (she specifically mentions that Sakura told her about someone who could cleanse gems) My memory of commentators in thread is that they also noticed that she was also notably pretty cool towards with us throughout the affair, which implies she may well have been outright trying to get on our good side. And she outright asked to purchase our services in the midst of things. Before I'd thought that was for strategic or logistical reasons but... Well, perhaps there was more to it.
During the Sendai fight, Akiko eventually ranted about how Grief seeds are "safety, security, and commodity," but when she was pressed on that, she clammed up and went into rote repetition, instead of being able to explain more. Which would make sense if there was a secret purpose to it that she couldn't explain.
The Sendai Group under Akiko also frequently warred with Ishinomaki. Personally, I've wondered if during those times she wasn't trying to acquire Kato's seed from them, as well as just.
Akiko attempting dewitching also explains why her "failure" hit her so hard at the end of Sendai. It's kind of weird that just failing her team would hit her so hard isn't it? But if the operation is the point, rather than her team? If she's still doing this to save the person she made her wish for?
It's suddenly quite understandable why failing like that would drive her to something that looks suspiciously like a variant of wish-rejection.
So Yeah. All together, I now suspect everything about Akiko's operation in Sendai was an attempt to acquire and clear a seed. Kato's seed.
[] You're too well aware of just how insane dewitching attempts can get. Nadia told you some of it, and Akiko's... operation in Sendai would fit far too well with how someone might try to clear a seed without the benefit of your powers.
So, in theory, you can clear a grief seed without someone like Sabrina around. It would take a some doing though, and a lot of grief seeds.
Get a classical grief controller and you can transfer grief from one seed to another. And --- as a bonus someone doing that may or may not know --- once enough of an imbalance has been made, the process will no longer require that grief controller to sustain. The half-cleared seed will further clear itself on its own once in contact with any normal seed.
Of course, that would likely take quite a lot of doing. Possibly hundreds or thousands of seeds would be needed. We don't have hard numbers on just how "overfull" a grief seed can get, but I wouldn't imagine it being so much as to need less than hundreds and hundreds of seeds.
But you know... we've actually seen a witchbombed girl, one who's backstory would give them a vested interest in dewitching, gather up hundreds and hundreds of seeds.
Akiko in Sendai.
It would explain why she was both so ruthless, and so wide-ranging, in her efforts to acquire grief seeds. Why shill out Rin, and tax the Sendai residents to death, and everything else, when just one of those things would otherwise be enough?
What's more, and rereading the arc to get things straight, the moment Sendai knew Mitakihara had someone who could cleanse soul gems, Akiko came running. (she specifically mentions that Sakura told her about someone who could cleanse gems) My memory of commentators in thread is that they also noticed that she was also notably pretty cool towards with us throughout the affair, which implies she may well have been outright trying to get on our good side. And she outright asked to purchase our services in the midst of things. Before I'd thought that was for strategic or logistical reasons but... Well, perhaps there was more to it.
During the Sendai fight, Akiko eventually ranted about how Grief seeds are "safety, security, and commodity," but when she was pressed on that, she clammed up and went into rote repetition, instead of being able to explain more. Which would make sense if there was a secret purpose to it that she couldn't explain.
The Sendai Group under Akiko also frequently warred with Ishinomaki. Personally, I've wondered if during those times she wasn't trying to acquire Kato's seed from them, as well as just.
Akiko attempting dewitching also explains why her "failure" hit her so hard at the end of Sendai. It's kind of weird that just failing her team would hit her so hard isn't it? But if the operation is the point, rather than her team? If she's still doing this to save the person she made her wish for?
It's suddenly quite understandable why failing like that would drive her to something that looks suspiciously like a variant of wish-rejection.
So Yeah. All together, I now suspect everything about Akiko's operation in Sendai was an attempt to acquire and clear a seed. Kato's seed.
[] You're too well aware of just how insane dewitching attempts can get. Nadia told you some of it, and Akiko's... operation in Sendai would fit far too well with how someone might try to clear a seed without the benefit of your powers.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
It's an interesting theory, but we have far too little evidence to start talking to Yuki about it right now given how circumstantial everything is.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Because it wouldn't be. You can never have enough seeds, you can never be safe enough from witching. Her behavior isn't rational, sure, but we knew that already. What it is is consistent with someone who has trauma relating to running out of seeds and is now absolutely terrified of ever being anywhere near letting that happen.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
If it helps, I'm spitballing with that last line. It seems worth putting the idea to the thread to examine given that I have been pushing to acquire Kato's seed if reasonably possible.
I think there's more to it than that. It's not just a matter of how rational it is, Akiko being self interested in her underlying motives just doesn't jive to me with her wish: She made her wish for someone else's sake. And as she still had her powers, I'd say its reasonable to argue that some interpretation of that wish was still in play, still driving her, at least up to the moment we beat her.
There's when we beat her her lines to consider:
If it were that Akiko can't lose seeds or income, I think she'd have said something different there.
She must do something. She can't fail. It reads like there was a goal there.
More than that, since we left off she's been saying things to Rin, trying to influence her in some way. As such it's not unlikely she still has those goals in mind.
It would also be kind of fitting that the person with hair halfway between Sayaka's and Homura's (dark blue and halfway down her back) has a character and arc between both of them too: She wishes out of love, unrequited, and it ends in a witch. And even now, everything is for
-------------------------------
On a related tangent, a plotbunny hit:
I wonder if someone did succeed in making a clear seed once. Sometime long in the past, but recent enough to be a legend some girls have heard.
A group of magical girls lose their friend. She becomes a witch. But they get it into their heads that it was the grief that caused this. So if they can remove the grief it might restore her.
It takes a long time, but together they gain the aid of a grief controller who can help them, and they gather a thousand seeds. (Specifically a thousand grief seeds, in this case, because its a number that ties into the Japanese legend that folding a thousand origami cranes cranes can get you a wish granted.)
And... they do it. They win. They clear the seed. And more than that, they were right. They bring their friend back. Everything can be fixed.
Except...
They talk about how they did it. It becomes a legend among magical girls. And people start to take advantage of the idea.
Now, everyone has hope that everything can be fixed but resources are scarce. In places like Tokyo, girls hoard desperately because maybe... just maybe. The Sendais of the world turn to extreme measures, crueler ones, and invite enmity upon themselves for it. And then there are the others, the Iowa of the world. City raiders who, regardless of desire to gain their own thousand or simple efficiency, realize they don't have to hunt seeds themselves. They just need to prey on the desperation and hoarding of others.
Now, this isn't even a theory so much as me just spinning a yarn because it sounds like it has the foundations of a good story, but it ties in to things nicely: It would explain how Kyuubey knows just how much trouble Clear Seeds can cause. It would fit the motives of the girls we've seen and changes Madoka made to this world. It might also help explain the notable "Optimism" of Japan that Nadia mentioned back when we met her, especially if it first happened in Japan itself.
And it's a bit of hope, one that can all too easily cause yet greater tragedy. Which just seems fitting to PMMM, both in PMAS's incarnation of and without.
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, I agree we need to present the idea of dewitching carefully. If they've been witched and in the magical girl world for a while dewitching probably looks a lot like perpetual motion or a cure all - things that mankind has sought forever but will never achieve. We should be honest that for all we know it might just be impossible but we have some compelling early results that at least merit investigation.
Lordsservent
Servant of the one true God and SV
- Location
- The centre of the Multiverse
The talk about clear seeds, our discussions of dewitching and the fact that Kyubey can process our grief gives me an idea as to how the incubator system runs. It's probably simple, it may not be the most accurate, but I feel like it is the most likely one unless evidence says other wise.
1: Filled Grief seeds are taken to the incubator processing facility and drained of all grief, with the grief being turned into anti entropy energy.
2: The grief seed, now lacking a will of its own is sent back into the system, and used to help catalyze the soul gem creation process.
3: The soul gem then overwrites the identity of the previous witch with its own, and the grief seed begins producing grief to fill the soul gem every time magic is used.
4: Eventually, the witch will erupt from the soul gem and shatter it, becoming its own entity and potentially spawning more grief seeds if the familiars can kill people.
5: At some point, a magical girl will come along and kill the witch(unless it is absurdly powerful or Walpurgisnacht), use the grief seed to its limit and give it to Kyubey, starting the process anew and continuing the cruel, vicious cycle of the system.
1: Filled Grief seeds are taken to the incubator processing facility and drained of all grief, with the grief being turned into anti entropy energy.
2: The grief seed, now lacking a will of its own is sent back into the system, and used to help catalyze the soul gem creation process.
3: The soul gem then overwrites the identity of the previous witch with its own, and the grief seed begins producing grief to fill the soul gem every time magic is used.
4: Eventually, the witch will erupt from the soul gem and shatter it, becoming its own entity and potentially spawning more grief seeds if the familiars can kill people.
5: At some point, a magical girl will come along and kill the witch(unless it is absurdly powerful or Walpurgisnacht), use the grief seed to its limit and give it to Kyubey, starting the process anew and continuing the cruel, vicious cycle of the system.
- Location
- Illinois
So, seems to me that we basically want to persuade Yuki that we aren't going to go nuts over dewitching.
Honestly, the best approach to that is to talk with her about why we/she think it is that people do go nuts over dewitching.
I do this all the time; it's a formula where you respond to somebody warning you away from something by going "Yeah, I'd never do that, I do x y and z instead, but y'know I think I can sort of see how people end up that way, they go through a b and c and all of a sudden they're doing f, y'know?"
If you do it right it really impresses people.
Anyway, right here, that might look a bit like this...
[X] Somewhere on your priorities list, below staying alive, sane, and non-evil, there's an entry that says "figure out how to turn a clear seed back into a soul gem."
> Establish that avoiding the various pitfalls associated with dewitching is more important to us than dewitching. "I do x y and z instead."
-[X] You hadn't known that dewitching had the reputation that it does until after you spoke with Ms. Bennouna, but in hindsight it makes a lot of sense. The first step to it would inevitably be to remove all of the grief from a grief seed, because dewitching a girl with exponentially more grief in her soul than it took to witch her out in the first place would be impossible, but doing that without your powers would be infeasible... Absent, at any rate, doing a ton of really evil, immoral shit. You suspect that all the badness around the topic is not a coincidence.
> "Draw the rest of the fucking cat, nya."
--[X] But once all the grief is out of the seed... You've got a clear seed doing Weird Shit already, and all you really did was toss a bit of magic at it while channeling happy thoughts. Where that's going, specifically, you have no idea -- but you felt she should know.
Am I totally happy with that? Not entirely, particularly because this formula works better when it's done organically in a conversation instead of artificially in a monologue.
I'll come back to it and see if I can work it into a better shape -- but meanwhile, if that goes through it should do alright.
Honestly, the best approach to that is to talk with her about why we/she think it is that people do go nuts over dewitching.
I do this all the time; it's a formula where you respond to somebody warning you away from something by going "Yeah, I'd never do that, I do x y and z instead, but y'know I think I can sort of see how people end up that way, they go through a b and c and all of a sudden they're doing f, y'know?"
If you do it right it really impresses people.
Anyway, right here, that might look a bit like this...
[X] Somewhere on your priorities list, below staying alive, sane, and non-evil, there's an entry that says "figure out how to turn a clear seed back into a soul gem."
> Establish that avoiding the various pitfalls associated with dewitching is more important to us than dewitching. "I do x y and z instead."
-[X] You hadn't known that dewitching had the reputation that it does until after you spoke with Ms. Bennouna, but in hindsight it makes a lot of sense. The first step to it would inevitably be to remove all of the grief from a grief seed, because dewitching a girl with exponentially more grief in her soul than it took to witch her out in the first place would be impossible, but doing that without your powers would be infeasible... Absent, at any rate, doing a ton of really evil, immoral shit. You suspect that all the badness around the topic is not a coincidence.
> "Draw the rest of the fucking cat, nya."
--[X] But once all the grief is out of the seed... You've got a clear seed doing Weird Shit already, and all you really did was toss a bit of magic at it while channeling happy thoughts. Where that's going, specifically, you have no idea -- but you felt she should know.
Am I totally happy with that? Not entirely, particularly because this formula works better when it's done organically in a conversation instead of artificially in a monologue.
I'll come back to it and see if I can work it into a better shape -- but meanwhile, if that goes through it should do alright.
- Location
- Depths of Hell, Maybe
I know it's a Bad Idea, but all this talk about dewitching has me wondering what would happen if we tried to make a Clear Gem—as in, drawing ALL of the Grief out of a still-living magical girl's Gem. Getting smiles painted on your soul?
- Location
- Australia
Your theory doesn't explain where witches would come from in the first place. Non-Clear witch seeds regenerate grief and eventually hatch back into a witch. I think it is more likely that Kyuubey keeps the witches and uses them as perpetual motion machines. I don't think incubators can use grief directly but they can set up the eldritch abomination equivalent of a hamster wheel
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Yes. Your soul gets a horrifying rictus grin, and then releases a virus that paralyzes the facial muscles of anyone it infects, causing them to also have horrible rictus grins.
Edit:
Think Joker, but if he was a magical girl.
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
Given that they are able to processour raw grief I'd say that they can convert it into energy
And one small issue is that we know they get energy from two different stages of the process
When someone witches they get an influx of energy right then and there, and they also use the raw grief from grief seeds they collect
I remember itzli and am reminded that earth isn't the only planet being farmed, and a morbid part of my brain is imagining a massive death star filled with rack after rack of seeds, all being used to collect grief to be processed for whatever means they fight entropy with
- Location
- Australia
I stated not directly. They use our grief for energy by feeding it to witches.
Where is it stated that they get an immediate influx of energy from witch outs?
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
This... probably isn't possible, depending on how you're defining 'all' here. There's still a singular point of grief left in a Clear Seed, which happens to be exactly the same as the singular point of grief in an untarnished Soul Gem: The nascent Witch. We can't pull all of the grief out of, say, Mami's gem, because part of that grief is Candeloro, and trying would imply soul-surgery that's Almost Definitely A Bad Idea At This Point.
- Location
- Illinois
Which literally translates as "ホームラン", that is, Homu Run.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
When Kyuubey is talking about how much energy it got from Gretchen while she's eating Earth in the background.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Like, seriously, if anybody doesn't know, Hard Reset is a MLP fanfic about Twilight Sparkle stuck in a timeloop, and she once took a baseball bat to town and killed a bunch of changelings with it.
She was sorta going insane at the time.
What I mean is
A time-traveling magical lesbian ( a few years after the show )
Gets stuck in the time loop
To avert an imminent disaster
Has a romantic fling with a goddess at one time
The only thing different is that Twilight Sparkle has friendship power while Homu has firepower
Well, and she's also a pony
The story was written in 2012, so it might be a reference?
But let me reiterate, we need to find a baseball bat, name it Home Run and give it to Homura
Because that's literally the most annoying and wholesome thing I can imagine and basically the best
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
"I am going to defeat you with the power of friendship and this gun I found"
- Location
- Depths of Hell, Maybe
It's probably Homura saying it to Sabrina.