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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Our best counter to high-level Fire and simultaneous high-level Ice... is IRL Earth. Go down to the cement works in Kazamino, and raid their silo for ~70 tons of cement. Store in hyperspace. Fight as if we are unaware of their mighty magic, and just when they think they have suckered us in, rotate all of it back in. Right on top of her. Clay materials are rather dense, so the thermal power she can generate is of little use. It won't ignite. This earth product is already heat processed. Expansion will not break in, it's powder. Freezing the powder is not very transformative. It would just be in the way. It's a loss of tempo. And then...
 
It seems to me that Mami put it best (as always, lol): we should be careful.

We have two main objectives. Ascertain if the Soujos of PMAS are as horrible and irredeemable a pair of girls as in PMKM, and eliminate them as a threat.

The trouble is, unlike virtually all other meguca up to and including Rionna Mag Aoidh, it's unclear why the Soujos would have any interest whatsoever in speaking with us.

They're not here to see whether we're really what we say and how we came to be, or to kill us if we're not. They're not here to be our friends, or to see if they can avoid fighting us and thus wasting finite magic. They're here to bodykill us and take our soul gem.

That has nasty strategic implications. In 99.99% of meguca contacts the first thing we want to do is talk. With the Soujos, I'm not sure we don't want to shoot first and ask questions later, to avoid a scenario where we wake up in a Mami Ribbon Clone with a Concerned HomuMumi standing over us.

This said, if we keep enough enchanted grief on hand for a chibi... It would be a good way to handle the situation. Have the chibi talk to them.
 
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Always Happening said:
If we want to try to talk with them, using an extremely obvious proxy is actually a great idea; they'll know it's not actually us, so trying to blow it up won't do anything but tip their hand-- at which point we drop the hammer.
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Personally I have little fear of any possibility that they might really have a hand to not tip in the first place. We can sense soul gems. if they're carrying a bunch of soul gems with them, our conversation boils down to "Excuse me, but would you let me reanimate one of those people and ask them if you're evil?"

Probably followed by vaporizing an evil bitch(es), but we'd best be sure, y'know?
 
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Then a grand idea is to carry enchanted Grief and solid Grief to hand continuously until we know how this goes down. Her speed is excellent, but if we have any normal amount of reticence and hold a reasonable separation, we'd get a solid save opportunity. We should train on deploying the Grief faster with Sayaka and Kyouko a bit. It'll be fun.

Or, like Always Happening is saying, just make a logs and yarn body double?

Our major move overall is the one to break her hold in some hypothetical hostage situation. Do we invent a clever application of our powers? Can we come up with an enchantment vector, so we can wrest them away unexpectedly?

Maybe we have to break her mental resolve?
Would dissonance work fine? If both minds in there get horribly jarring input, does she lag more than vanilla humans?

Thus, right as she yells some nonsense about "I will add you to my collection!!" We - yell the same thing back at her, with crazed confidence.
 
We should really be making a chibi as a standard precaution sooner rather than later - it's likely to be an effective defense against being bodykilled.

Barring significant evidence from Fukushima's part that they can be negotiated with, which I'm not expecting, I'm not inclined to try talking to the Soujus up front.

Oriko saw them coming for our soul gem - the best interpretation of that is that someone hired them to assassinate us. It's quite likely that they're just crazy like canon and attracted to the shiny that is our powers.

If we take them out cleanly we can just interrogate them afterwards in a safer setting.

The only real concern here is the risk of QB using a "you attacked first" claim against us, which is another reason to talk to Fukushima about this - if we can get a warning out of them that the Soujus are bad news, that gives us carte blanche to wreck them if they show up near our territory.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
We should really be making a chibi as a standard precaution sooner rather than later - it's likely to be an effective precaution against being bodykilled.
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I don't actually agree with this. Having first contact be with a not-person that feels exactly like a witch is almost certainly a terrible idea in most cases. People already think we're too good to be true, we really don't need them thinking, from the get go, that there's something seriously, obviously wrong about us. "The grief girl is secretly a witch and therefore probably secretly out to consume my soul" isn't... Let's not put that foot forward.

Situations like this where there's evidence we're dealing with a psychopathic mass murderer -- that's a different matter.
 
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Going by what we see in Kazumi Magica, the only reason I would think the Sisters Souju would want to talk to Sabrina would be in order to lower her guard and make it quick and easy to nab the Soul Gem. Then again, it would depend on if this is Souju-Classic and is Rionna levels of unrepentant/ off her rocker or some new version of her that isn't completely off her rocker and can thus be talked down/ negotiated/ etc.

Redshirt Army said:
Oriko saw them coming for our soul gem - the best interpretation of that is that someone hired them to assassinate us. It's quite likely that they're just crazy like canon and attracted to the shiny that is our powers.
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Remember, in PMKM, the Sisters Souju were originally heading to Mitakihara, to begin with. They only changed their minds and went to Asunaro because of hearing about Kazumi. This means, most probably, their original canon target was Mami or Kyoko since prior to Homura they were the strongest/ special (what with Kyubey calling her an anomaly) in the area.
 
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Kaizuki said:
Personally I have little fear of any possibility that they might really have a hand to not tip in the first place. We can sense soul gems. if they're carrying a bunch of soul gems with them, our conversation boils down to "Excuse me, but would you let me reanimate one of those people and ask them if you're evil?"
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True, but being able to engage them in a space where they can't engage us puts a lot of pressure on them by robbing them of their element of surprise; they essentially hunt by ambush and alpha strike, a tactical sphere in which White Ribbon wholly outclasses them anyway.

Redshirt Army said:
We should really be making a chibi as a standard precaution sooner rather than later - it's likely to be an effective defense against being bodykilled.

Barring significant evidence from Fukushima's part that they can be negotiated with, which I'm not expecting, I'm not inclined to try talking to the Soujus up front.

Oriko saw them coming for our soul gem - the best interpretation of that is that someone hired them to assassinate us. It's quite likely that they're just crazy like canon and attracted to the shiny that is our powers.

If we take them out cleanly we can just interrogate them afterwards in a safer setting.

The only real concern here is the risk of QB using a "you attacked first" claim against us, which is another reason to talk to Fukushima about this - if we can get a warning out of them that the Soujus are bad news, that gives us carte blanche to wreck them if they show up near our territory.
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Gathering intel from our allies should definitely be the first step; in the real world, people exist outside of the protagonists' line of sight and do things for reasons. Hell, given the butterfly effects of our actions existing outside of the thread of fate, they may have even ended up cancelling their booking here.
 
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Kaizuki said:
I don't actually agree with this. Having first contact be with a not-person that feels exactly like a witch is almost certainly a terrible idea in most cases. People already think we're too good to be true, we really don't need them thinking, from the get go, that there's something seriously, obviously wrong about us. "The grief girl is secretly a witch and therefore probably secretly out to consume my soul" isn't... Let's not put that foot forward.

Situations like this where there's evidence we're dealing with a psychopathic mass murderer -- that's a different matter.
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Bah. Just make an enchanted grief chibi (so it doesn't feel witchy) and leave it in hammerspace near the edge of our range in the kata direction.

It should barely be noticeable, and if anything happens to our normal body we should 'snap' to controlling just the chibi almost instantly.

Probably Demonic said:
Do we even have the facilities to house them? We really need to talk to green-haired friend's parents. Are we just going to keep them as Gems until we have the time?
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We have literal millions of dollars worth of Yakuza money, and a valid ID to go with them. Somehow I think we'll be able to find 30 hotel vacancies in Mitakihara. :V
 
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Kaizuki said:
I don't actually agree with this. Having first contact be with a not-person that feels exactly like a witch is almost certainly a terrible idea in most cases. People already think we're too good to be true, we really don't need them thinking, from the get go, that there's something seriously, obviously wrong about us. "The grief girl is secretly a witch and therefore probably secretly out to consume my soul" isn't... Let's not put that foot forward.

Situations like this where there's evidence we're dealing with a psychopathic mass murderer -- that's a different matter.
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Let me rephrase this. Suppose we were playing Random Heroic Meguca quest. We've been through all the magical bits, the storyline-esque shit resulting from wishes, the way so many people seem to have stories behind them because that's what the influence of wishes and QB cause -- and now after our QM has laid out, painstakingly, how we have a finite supply of magic, we get word that there's some girl out there who can give us infinite magic.

The first thing we think is, shit, where's the trap in this?

If the first thing we get when we meet her is that her very body feels like a witch -- I mean, come on, I think I'd be the first to go "OMG ITS A TRAP, SHES ACTUALLY A WITCH"

Redshirt Army said:
Bah. Just make an enchanted grief chibi (so it doesn't feel witchy) and leave it in hammerspace near the edge of our range in the kata direction.

It should barely be noticeable, and if anything happens to our normal body we should 'snap' to controlling just the chibi almost instantly.
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Does enchanted grief feel witchy?

Uh. Anyway. I'm sure there's more to be said here but like I just wanted to frame that issue that way.
 
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Kaizuki said:
Let me rephrase this. Suppose we were playing Random Heroic Meguca quest. We've been through all the magical bits, the storyline-esque shit resulting from wishes, the way so many people seem to have stories behind them because that's what the influence of wishes and QB cause -- and now after our QM has laid out, painstakingly, how we have a finite supply of magic, we get word that there's some girl out there who can give us infinite magic.

The first thing we think is, shit, where's the trap in this?

If the first thing we get when we meet her is that her very body feels like a witch -- I mean, come on, I think I'd be the first to go "OMG ITS A TRAP, SHES ACTUALLY A WITCH"
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Sure?

The chibi isn't meant to be a diplomatic proxy (if nothing else, the chibi proportions would give off a very intense "brain damage" vibe), it's meant as a backup body we can keep in hammerspace and switch to if our main one gets, say, obliterated by a fireblast.

Kaizuki said:
Does enchanted grief feel witchy?
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It doesnt.

Well, to be specific, it feels more witchy than normal "inert" grief, but way less witchy than, well, witchy grief.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Sure?

The chibi isn't meant to be a diplomatic proxy (if nothing else, the chibi proportions would give off a very intense "brain damage" vibe), it's meant as a backup body we can keep in hammerspace and switch to if our main one gets, say, obliterated by a fireblast.
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So for context I made that post before I saw your posts and although it reads like I was replying to you it wasn't the intent I just thought if a better way to phrase what I wrote XD

Uh

Point is *hugs*
 
hmmm. Basics. I think our plan would be to "gain an advantage." Very plain concept, so let's start with what sort of environment would be to our advantage.

One ally can stop time.
Two other, and ourselves, can become airborne.
Soujo's don't have flight, and we should confirm that.

Set a physical trap, or a magical attack, to indiscriminately get us airborne. Make it ludicrous, 2 or three miles up. Perhaps we get them on a plane with us, and then step out for a chat. We have way more options than she does up there. If the Gems get hurled to the ground, we win. If she doesn't deploy the hostages, our armor is still going to require her to get into a furball with us. All we really need is to get her in range and away from collateral targets.
 
The talk of chibis and creative uses of our powers makes me think that an effective manner of dealing with them is to solely use constructs against her, hide our physical body
Remember they are coming for someone with griefbending powers who stinks of witch
If we make a doppelganger out of grief and interact with her using that while hiding our physical self then we can bypass several issues
If she can't locate our physical body she will be unable to bodykill or gem us.
And also as far as we know grief can't be destroyed so we will have something we won't have to worry about her managing to incinerate
If we play our cards right they will 'smell' our witchiness and make a beeline right for us. They might not even notice that they're fighting a double
 
Always Happening said:
We can assume this because they don't do so in canon, but Ayase's fire powers could absolutely enable flight, whether via flame jets or rocket jumping.
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Gamera FTW? But if she doesn't use them, her ad-hoc "flight powers" will hamper, and even defeat her. Learning curve - that would be fun to watch! If they have ever used the rocket move in front of survivors, they would be famous for it, I imagine. Also why I'm advocating big air. Magical Girls are surprisingly able, so let's just go outside the mobility envelope of amateurs.

For our "chibi herald," may I return to the theme of not all progress requires Grief? It's 2011. ASIMO is a thing. We need to trade wisely, reprogram and add some telemetry, drape a little cosplay over it. BAM - we have a (barely) moving intercom with zero magical signature.
 
Kaizuki said:
I don't actually agree with this. Having first contact be with a not-person that feels exactly like a witch is almost certainly a terrible idea in most cases. People already think we're too good to be true, we really don't need them thinking, from the get go, that there's something seriously, obviously wrong about us. "The grief girl is secretly a witch and therefore probably secretly out to consume my soul" isn't... Let's not put that foot forward.

Situations like this where there's evidence we're dealing with a psychopathic mass murderer -- that's a different matter.
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As far as the "feels like a witch" aspects of all this goes, I'll note that enchanted grief can already make everything less witchy, and we've barely explored it. I've said this before, but if we do not use at all, we may well be able to avoid that witchy feeling entirely.

We haven't yet tried replicating a chibi without our willpower coming into it, nor enchanting an object (like our grief) permanently, and there's indications that both are possible.

Redshirt Army said:
Sure?

The chibi isn't meant to be a diplomatic proxy (if nothing else, the chibi proportions would give off a very intense "brain damage" vibe), it's meant as a backup body we can keep in hammerspace and switch to if our main one gets, say, obliterated by a fireblast.
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There's a problem with this idea: Bad touch effects. Niko has already pointed out to us that she knows how to forcibly disconnect a soul gem. That's not necessarily unique to her magic, and if so the Soujou's especially are likely to know the technique, given their habits.

Instead, might I suggest something more akin to Homucifer's earring? A little figurine or other construct that we keep it in, and which we can switch to if we're otherwise incapacitated.
Kaizuki said:
*raises hand*

I for one vote that we just vaporize them in the middle of the street, like, maybe in front of a preschool or something.
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Okay, I can't read whether you're joking or not Kai, but this just seems excessively bloodthirsty. Can we not go down this conversational road before we know for a fact we need to?
 
The Phoenixian said:
As far as the "feels like a witch" aspects of all this goes, I'll note that enchanted grief can already make everything less witchy, and we've barely explored it. I've said this before, but if we do not use at all, we may well be able to avoid that witchy feeling entirely.

We haven't yet tried replicating a chibi without our willpower coming into it, nor enchanting an object (like our grief) permanently, and there's indications that both are possible.


There's a problem with this idea: Bad touch effects. Niko has already pointed out to us that she knows how to forcibly disconnect a soul gem. That's not necessarily unique to her magic, and if so the Soujou's especially are likely to know the technique, given their habits.

Instead, might I suggest something more akin to Homucifer's earring? A little figurine or other construct that we keep it in, and which we can switch to if we're otherwise incapacitated.

Okay, I can't read whether you're joking or not Kai, but this just seems excessively bloodthirsty. Can we not go down this conversational road before we know for a fact we need to?
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500% sarcasm and y'know what let me edit that cuz Jesus that's a bit much
 
Because I like to find excuses to avoid sleeping, apparently, despite desperately needing to do more of that, I decided to do a bit of research into how much power Ayase's flame is actually outputting. If we assume Niko's clones she vaporized were made of brick, we can broadly assume they're hot enough to vaporize silicon, which is their main chemical component-- this would put her at outputting temperatures around or in excess of approximately 2760 C/5000 F. Take this with a grain of salt, though, since magic is kind of inherently fucky-wucky like that.
 
Indeed. Beside that point, what we might be measuring isn't temperature, but work. The bricks are most likely to spall into particles, and get blown away if one applies the heat fast enough. Melting isn't a fast process, even if it is happening. So the thermal flux is what is doing the damage, it might be a lower temperature - or not. Bulk minerals will buy time. All we need is a tactical mistake on her part, initiated when we want it. Small openings are decisive in hard fought contests, and once we are in action Grief is quick.

Training - we could buy three dozen eggs for the spar? Our goal is to hold all eggs aloft with Grief, while also sparing. This should help us build fine control, the exact sort we would want to hot-hand a soul gem away from Soujo's influence. Build the will, sharpen the mind, the magic will follow.

As far as our ability to social, why don't we buy a favor? Have our friends look up either Soujo's phone number. Hey, it might work - it isn't like they would need to hide their identity?

If that doesn't work, just buy five billboard ads in strategic places. Watercolor of a Soul Gem, and a contact line. Think she would see it? Wanna bet she would have to follow the link?

Some other girl who isn't our enemy might find us this way too.
 
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