Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And they would've gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for that meddling kid.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Arguable. We will never find out what Madokami intended to do after shutting that operation down, if anything, cuz Homura took the nuclear option.
Yay for the nuclear option?
- Location
- Earth, probably.
- Pronouns
- None/Any
"I'm gonna pay you 1.26e1000000 grief spheres to fuck right off."
- Location
- a Minecraft Rollercoaster
Would they be happy with a lump sum? Wouldn't a perpetual bond be better to bribe them with?
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Any perpetual bond will be equivalent to a lump sum in their eyes after they run it through their actuarial tables.
(I suppose it might give them a reason to keep us alive through)
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Rate of Grief provided by Sabrina * expected value of Sabrina's lifespan = expected value of "perpetual" Grief agreementAny perpetual bond will be equivalent to a lump sum in their eyes after they run it through their actuarial tables.
No
Pretty much, we don't know enough about the Incubators as a whole to decide how they would see things, but at the very least we've seen that QB is a greedy mofo.
It's important to remember that the Incubators seem to be living in the universe where the only real threat to them is the universes eventual heat death, at least if their reaction to Ulimate KG is anything to go by. They aren't used to their terrible actions having any consequences for them beyond inconvenience.er
With that in mind it's easy to see how their risk vs reward calculations could get skewed towards the extreme greed we see in Rebellion.
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Actually
We fed the QB Grief Spheres
He doesn't mind getting more
That means they have some sort of technology to keep Grief active and not dissolving out of our range
Most probably
That means those bitches directly violate our unalienable right to control all da Grief in da Universe
Yet another reason to break the system
We fed the QB Grief Spheres
He doesn't mind getting more
That means they have some sort of technology to keep Grief active and not dissolving out of our range
Most probably
That means those bitches directly violate our unalienable right to control all da Grief in da Universe
Yet another reason to break the system
- Location
- Italy
I'm fairly sure that with enough time/SCIENCE/effort we could magic up some kind of perpetual motion machine to endlessly produce magic/grief/whatever the hell is that the incubators could actually use from the whole system instead of grief seeds (and if the "incubators are keeping grief seeds for grief production" thing is true, this might even allow us to use said machine as a bargain chip and retrieve the seeds lost to the bunnycat through the ages).
The real problem is that, as others have noted, Kyubei might not (and probably will not) stop their machinations, even if we gave them something the size of UKG. They'll always want more.
[X] Redshirt Army
The real problem is that, as others have noted, Kyubei might not (and probably will not) stop their machinations, even if we gave them something the size of UKG. They'll always want more.
[X] Redshirt Army
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Completely off-topic, but consider: Sabrina can create grief clones which she's controls like additional parts of her own body.
We should totally plan out an absolutely spectacular group dance routine, performed with perfect synchronization and meguca-level agility.
We should totally plan out an absolutely spectacular group dance routine, performed with perfect synchronization and meguca-level agility.
- Location
- 👁👄👁
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Godwinson has a point here: we need to address the potential-bomb. Ignoring it won't make it go away-- we're getting sidetracked.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
The almost-fatal error we've had here is that the quest has mainly just gone "Homura is stupid, git gud scrub" and then just flat-out ignored even trying to understand why it's such a devastating psychological blow to her. Without understanding, we can't even begin trying to fix the underlying issue. We straight up know that the issue isn't one that can be resolved by "it looks like we'll win this time", because otherwise it would've already been resolved before Firn dropped the QM-Warning on us.
As a further note about the way we ought to handle this?
It's not a question of finding the right power stunt.
Gee it's like people are important
Firn has not been subtle about this, in-story or out-of-story.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Okay, so drop your great understanding of Homura on us, ye great and mighty.
Because you're right, I don't get it. I don't see why Homura wouldn't be able to hold together to the end, when she was able to power through that revelation in canon up until she would have been forced to loop again. And it's not like I, or Kaizuki, or Vebyast, or hell, you, didn't try to understand Homura during the events leading up to deciding to Potentialbomb her, and getting that unsubtle hint not to.
So if you've got something to say? Fucking say it.
And if you can't, because it's privileged information? Then stop taunting us with it.
- Location
- Florida
Guys, please chill.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Sabrina "Not A Witch" Vee
The least evil girl in history
And if you do not believe me
I totally won't fill your Soul Gem up with Grief
'Cause that'd be evil and that's so not me
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
She kind of didn't "power through". Look at how she behaved during that walpy fight: she was spending everything. It wasn't like she would have continued unchanged to the end of the loop and then suddenly lost it. She gave up the instant she learned and was just committing suicide in her habitual fashion. Witching out would have just been the last thing she did. The only reason she got that far is because she couldn't give up until she'd made that one last attempt and convinced herself she'd run out.
Here? She has no reason to continue. We've already mostly picked up the reins. If she despairs, she isn't going to push on to the end of the loop. There's no reason for her to. She isn't helping. She'd just give up on the spot.
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
My point is that the thread has largely done just that right there -- "I don't get it" and the stopped even trying to figure it out, often while getting angry (either at each other, or at Firn). And no, I'm not working off privileged information, nor am I claiming I have the specific answer. Quite the opposite, I'm trying to convince people that we, as a whole, should work on that particular topic because no one of us has presented a good breakdown for just why Homura reacts badly to it (whether that be here or even in canon).
We've put a fair amount of thought toward the specific aim of "deal with Potentialbomb, somehow" but very little toward "Why does this hurt Homura so badly?". when understanding why it affects her would seem to be really useful in figuring out how to make it not affect her as much.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
To be entirely fair, the time between the Potentialbomb and Homura's collapse is something like not even a full 24 hours. And Homura didn't have something like Sabrina to invite escapist depressive thoughts like "if I bow out now she'll still be okay". Because we're here, Homura can't actually push herself forward with "I'm the only one who can protect her."
And that last thought is literally the only thing that kept her going for the past 12 years of her life.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Ugh, you're right, sorry. I shouldn't have gotten that worked up.
But yeah, that whole episode still pisses me off.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
That's because every time someone comes up with an idea someone else shouts them down because every last one of you has a completely different headcanon from the others. Why do you think you guys fight so much about this? You're all working from different basic assumptions so it's no wonder you draw different conclusions all the damn time...
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
This is not a helpful comment.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I really like the phrase "you guys" there. Classy.
Edit:
Like, I understand that from your perspective you're seeing some kind of cabal, but don't try to pretend that there's some more consistent interpretation that's being suppressed by our headcanons. I'm not getting so fed up with this mess because I'm having trouble keeping the truth from coming out. It's because every time I look away from the thread it goes and fucks something up and I have to fix it. The measure of a model is its ability to usefully predict the future and the models I am pissed off at suck.
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- Location
- Illinois
To be blunt, this is an immensely toxic mindset and part of why I think you really need to take a break from this thread.
Honestly?
I'm actually crying right now, because it makes total sense to me at the moment.
Good-for-nothing, Homura calls herself. But that's a coin with two faces. As is, Homura hates herself for failing to succeed.
But the potentialbomb is about Homura succeeding at making things worse.
At length: the potentialbomb is not about Homura having failed to make things better. It is about her having accomplished everything to make the situation worse, at every moment since before she even met Madoka. It's a statement that the situation would have been better without her contributions.
Bad-for-everything, Homulilly would call herself.
You want to know how the potentialbomb screws everything up?
Homura has contributed nothing, that's already clear to her: things haven't gotten better because of anything she's done. But that only leaves her clueless as to how to contribute something. It only makes her hate herself for not having managed to accomplish things, how to be more than a zero. And yet, a zero is still not a problem. A zero is still not a net weight on the system. Even if she's hurting Madoka, then at least she's still possibly, eventually improving the chances of alive-uncontracted Madoka. She doesn't like it, but anything is worth achieving her goal, even if that means making Madoka hate her. Even if it means hurting her. That's the very logic of Homucifer, even; it's canon that Homura believes something along those lines.
But the very instant the potentialbomb drops, that calculation changes dramatically: her existence becomes a net minus to the system. It's a change from "I have hurt Madoka, and I have been useless as far as achieving alive-uncontracted" to "I have directly contributed to fucking up the possibility of alive-uncontracted."
Now, in the... "normal" context of PMMM, that's way, waaaaaaaaay less of a problem than in PMAS, and I'll tell you why:
For PMMM Homura, the potentialbomb is about a loss of hope for the future: she commits to not looping again. She does this because the potentialbomb convinces her that she cannot hope to achieve alive-uncontracted in future loops, since things have only gotten worse across the loops due to Madoka's rising potential. She fights through the end of the loop because in PMMM, if Homura were to suddenly stop existing, then that would be the end, period... nobody except Homura could possibly save Madoka from her fate. There's no harm in fighting through the end of the loop, in, as Vebyast said, spending everything, because there's nothing to lose by doing so. She may be a net minus on the system, but there are no net pluses, no hope that by removing her net-minus-existence she could achieve her goals. Everything and everyone is a problem, no solution exists, and so what does removing the net minus that is her accomplish? Nothing except to ensure that the cycle of pain won't continue -- and she does ensure that. And so, "she despairs in truth."
In PMAS, though -- in PMAS, if Homura were to suddenly stop existing, then in her consideration there's a real chance that Madoka might make it through Walpurgisnacht alive and uncontracted.
Because we -- Sabrina -- exist. Because we are a net positive, and that lets Homura hope... it lets Homura hope that the net balance can be above zero.
And so it is that Homura's response to the potentialbomb in PMAS is to consider and then commit to killing herself in order to remove her net minus from the system... as well as possibly any number of other erratic actions she might view as removing net minuses from the system (probably not involving Oriko, actually, since we want Oriko alive and we are the net positive). How big a minus she is doesn't matter; if she's harming Madoka's chances at staying alive-uncontracted, then, well, she'll eliminate herself -- and in PMAS, unlike in PMMM, to Homura's mind, she actually is harming those chances, because IN PMAS THOSE CHANCES EXIST AT ALL. "You can pull her back from the brink," said Oriko. Yeah, I'm sure we could if we were there to tell her that we fucking needed her, which by the way I don't think we've ever said that to her, much less backed it up with any real argument.
And Madoka?
Madoka makes it all worse by caring about her.
If Madoka is there when the potentialbomb drops -- if Madoka tries to comfort Homura, hurting in front of her eyes -- if Homura's existence is immediately proven to be pulling Madoka into the chasm which Homura wants nothing more than to push her away from...
That's what is going on, here. Homura will absolutely kill herself for the sake of her mission, and we had damn well better do something about it, because part of Homura's reaction to the potentialbomb would be to stay away from us.
... Because we'd try to keep her alive, and she'd believe that that would be a mistake.
And so, indeed, "She despairs in truth."
Edit: Also of note, this explains quite nicely why "defusing" the potentialbomb is so useless. Absent a resolution, that would just give us suicidal!Homura for weeks instead of days.
Edit: much later, mostly as a note to myself: I'm trying to vocalize... The thing is, in the wake of the potentialbomb you'll get Homura thinking things like, "if I hadn't been around for Oriko maybe Sabrina would have been able to handle it better." She has no ability to assign a value to a given result: no way to say which of two similar courses of action is better for the odds of alive-uncontracted, and following the potentialbomb she starts assigning higher valuations to courses of action that don't involve herself, because she's a net weight. In this manner it doesn't matter that there's no clear specific way we would've dealt with Oriko without her, she just figures "well, Sabrina would've come up with something, and as it wouldn't have involved me it would probably have worked better."
And again: this maybe comes with a side of wish rejection.
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