AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
My worry is that if Homura has a break down, she knows we know and possibly won't want us to stop her and can Timestop...
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
My worry is that if Homura has a break down, she knows we know and possibly won't want us to stop her and can Timestop...
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Ah. Yeah, that much I definitely agree on - especially since that's around when Kyubey is projected to make its move, too.
Heh you know looking at the last update it really does feel like Sabrina and Mami are the den mothers to the other girls.
Also since I saw Infinity Wars since I last showed up... I can't help but immagine Sabrina snapping her fingers if she ever outright gemsplodes someones, doubt it'll ever happen but now the idea is stuck in my head.
Also since I saw Infinity Wars since I last showed up... I can't help but immagine Sabrina snapping her fingers if she ever outright gemsplodes someones, doubt it'll ever happen but now the idea is stuck in my head.
- Location
- Illinois
I kinda wanna just adopt Homu. There's an open room.
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Why not both? That's what time travel is for, isn't it?
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
So far, some types of Enchanted item use are canon - one can swing the bat to great effect, after Mami mojos it a bit. Other types, the ones that require "manipulation" or supply of active magic, probably not so much.
I think Sabrina can make a gray area, with her Control ability and some clever hax. That would basically result in "battery powered" magic items. It isn't that Magic and humans don't mix. Magic is part of the human condition, after all. It's just that muggles can't lift, or some such. It is something that other characters should explore! For Homura's sake, I think Madoka only gets to use "emergency full auto" defense magic. I think we can find a way to safely share more, but not a way to prove Madoka is less at risk for 'sploding the world if we do. In trade, we will have to share twice as much feels with her, instead.
In the case where Madoka is truly past her fault of contracting impulsively, I think sharing Magic is the final stable state of society. Right now, the Incubator isn't under control. And that is coloring everything we do.
Is this not exactly the subtext of our last two sections? A view of progress towards fixing everything means we are to strive to overthrow that future, and replace it with our version of the Golden Ending. The true measure of our progress is in the dark niches, in the little things. After a rough start, Sabrina is starting to get her friends in a mutual support relation. Further, these girls are adolescent. This is an exponential process, and as such it appears to be superficial right now. If we keep moving the relationships forward past what gets in our way, what will result is huge fundamental shifts. Should we do it right, in a couple of weeks there would be good reason to think that any of our group would "suddenly" decide to make Sabrina their shelter in times of despair. Hope is very sticky. That is all the chance we can ask for. We should spend more time on Hope enchanting, to make sure everybody gets involved fully.
Would I like us to fully de-fuse the Potentialbomb - yes, we should. Would I like Mami to be able to overcome the Witchbomb by choosing life over despair? Of course, we aim to build her up. But these plans aren't done yet. If we can't get past those goals in two weeks, then the absolute requirement for us is to have Sabrina present and fighting for them when the worst happens. Bringing in some help would be good, too. I'm not worried about this backup plan, it seems to be on pace.
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
[ECTOBIOLOGY INTENSIFIES]
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
I've been thinking about Walpurgisnacht's motives lately.
It's about the people after all, and the first part of treating people like people is asking why they do what they do.
So one thing that strikes me whenever I watch PMMM, is that the framing of the beginning and end of the anime all make it look like a deliberate story or play while the ED puts Madoka straight in the eyes of a doll very in a pose reminiscent of an unborn (perhaps quite literally making her a gleam in WPN's eye) and is especially noteworthy in the context of magia being sung (I'll get to that later.)
All put together it always makes me think we're seeing things from Walpurgisnacht's perspective. That, or perhaps her plan.
I can't help but wonder if, in the entire anime, Walpurgis is never once beaten in a way that goes against her wishes. Not even in the final timeline.
It's right there in the final shot after all: Madoka at the center of the Mitakihara five, then of countless girls, then only her soul gem is left all as an old film movie player in the background comes to a stop. Everyone has gone on to heaven. Walpurgisnacht included.
We know from one of the games, and Homulilly, that a witch can just crush herself inside the seed if she so chooses. In no timeline, even the ones where she's beaten, to all our knowledge, does Walpurgis' seed drop for Homura. Which implies that every time Walpurgis is defeated she just decides to die for the sake of her plan rather than be used as a seed.
I'll get to the plan in a moment.
WPN is also a witch with no barrier. Barriers, notably, contain the desires that hold the witch in place, even as they contain their despair. Which implies to me that she's after something that no possible delusion can offer her. After all, if it was just a matter of power, then that wouldn't stop her from making figments to her desires.
As to what that could be? Well, if everything is going according to her plan the entire time then I think WPN is trying to dewitch herself by using Madoka and Homura to do so.
It fits with the idea of her being us: Something so utterly controlling as dictating the course of someone's life without regard for the input or desires of others, leaving them helpless, is in character with Sabrina at her worst, or someone who could become her.
It also fits with the lyrics of Magia, if you hold them as being sung by Walpurgisnacht.
IIRC It's been proposed that that's Homura singing and that works, but it also reads to me that it works for Walpurgisnacht too: The song isn't just about love for Madoka, should you take her as the "you" there, it's accepting and even encouraging her to make a wish ("Swallow down the hesitation: what do you wish for?") It seems to be that it could be read as Homura's love, but even more so that of someone who sees herself as a mother.
The end of the full version sums it up nicely after all: "My wish, will create new life."
So too, in this scenario, less than even Homura, the only thing of Walpurgis to live on, be it as a witch or between timelines, is her feelings. In each timeline she has the intentions she had when she set out and can only trust that it is all true between timelines. But it was enough.
In Madoka, she found someone with the will to save everyone if only she had the power to do so. She gained that power.
In Homura, she found someone who would fight endlessly for the sake of another, if only she had the reason. She gained that reason.
It fits with Madoka's words to her in the end there too "It's over: You don't have to hate anyone anymore. You don't have to curse anyone anymore." A balm to the witch, because what witch wouldn't want to hear that?
And Walpugis is laughing there because, in that moment, she had won.
First PMMM is her plan to save herself. And, since we do see Walpurgis imagery in Rebellion and the Concept movie, perhaps than is her plan to first save Madoka can be saved from godhood, then later still Homura from devilhood, and perhaps even live again herself if the summoning of Madoka's "faeries" is any indication.
It fits with our metaknowledge and its inaccuracies too: Under such, our knowledge would be all the scenarios and plans that WPN thought up, and continues to think up.
Nevertheless, I say plan because, like all the best laid plans of witches and magical girls, it failed to survive contact with the enemy.
How often does an author think they've got everything thought out only for a character to do other than they thought they would? What if the difference is that Madoka just grew too powerful to be a little puppet and didn't make the wish that she was meant to? Because WPN was no longer strong enough to force Madoka's fate to follow her will anymore.
So Madoka made a wish that WPN did not intend. Not to become a god able to protect herself from grief, but to ensure everything could be fixed right then and there.
Perhaps there were other changes but it starts when the script can no longer be followed.
And if all that is true?
If the aim of Walpurgisnacht is indeed the end of her own grief, then it would be right for her to bear the name of "Dedolere," wouldn't it?
Especially after she won and secured her own happiness, if not quite how she had planned it.
----------------------
Of course, I'm assuming here the one blocking Oriko's visions in Our Benefactor is Walpurgis, and that what we see there is typical of how her power works when she applies herself, but I think that too fits with her motives speculated here: Sayaka contracted to be useful to us: It's not impossible to believe that WPN has found another form of dewitching to aim for, and in Sayaka she gave us the tools to do so.
But I wonder if this means that Walpugis has to be fought.
If her plan was dewitching all along, she might just be persuaded, if only we could find a means to talk.
If Kyuubey can talk to witches, WPN included, it might explain how it knows why he knew what we planning in Asunaro. He knows that she's after dewitching, and if he knows about us being made from her, then that we would do the same is obvious.
--------------------
This also has some potentialbomb implications. Because if that's the case then it's not just Homura who made that happen. Walpurgisnacht is also holding up Madoka as the center of everything, as the best hope for overwriting everything and breaking Kyuubey's system.
And it would also have implications for how Homura was able to make her wish too: Potential is born of how much your actions matter to everyone, and in that moment she made her wish she would have been everything to Walpugisnacht, who was no slouch in power herself. And so Homura attains the power to reach beyond the universe.
Both Homura and Madoka are depicted as caught in the strings and gears of fate, after all: an object seen incarnate in the form of Walpugis.
I don't know if it's a track for beating that bomb, but it's definitely something that Kyuubey would have left out in dropping it.
It's about the people after all, and the first part of treating people like people is asking why they do what they do.
So one thing that strikes me whenever I watch PMMM, is that the framing of the beginning and end of the anime all make it look like a deliberate story or play while the ED puts Madoka straight in the eyes of a doll very in a pose reminiscent of an unborn (perhaps quite literally making her a gleam in WPN's eye) and is especially noteworthy in the context of magia being sung (I'll get to that later.)
All put together it always makes me think we're seeing things from Walpurgisnacht's perspective. That, or perhaps her plan.
I can't help but wonder if, in the entire anime, Walpurgis is never once beaten in a way that goes against her wishes. Not even in the final timeline.
It's right there in the final shot after all: Madoka at the center of the Mitakihara five, then of countless girls, then only her soul gem is left all as an old film movie player in the background comes to a stop. Everyone has gone on to heaven. Walpurgisnacht included.
We know from one of the games, and Homulilly, that a witch can just crush herself inside the seed if she so chooses. In no timeline, even the ones where she's beaten, to all our knowledge, does Walpurgis' seed drop for Homura. Which implies that every time Walpurgis is defeated she just decides to die for the sake of her plan rather than be used as a seed.
I'll get to the plan in a moment.
WPN is also a witch with no barrier. Barriers, notably, contain the desires that hold the witch in place, even as they contain their despair. Which implies to me that she's after something that no possible delusion can offer her. After all, if it was just a matter of power, then that wouldn't stop her from making figments to her desires.
As to what that could be? Well, if everything is going according to her plan the entire time then I think WPN is trying to dewitch herself by using Madoka and Homura to do so.
It fits with the idea of her being us: Something so utterly controlling as dictating the course of someone's life without regard for the input or desires of others, leaving them helpless, is in character with Sabrina at her worst, or someone who could become her.
It also fits with the lyrics of Magia, if you hold them as being sung by Walpurgisnacht.
IIRC It's been proposed that that's Homura singing and that works, but it also reads to me that it works for Walpurgisnacht too: The song isn't just about love for Madoka, should you take her as the "you" there, it's accepting and even encouraging her to make a wish ("Swallow down the hesitation: what do you wish for?") It seems to be that it could be read as Homura's love, but even more so that of someone who sees herself as a mother.
The end of the full version sums it up nicely after all: "My wish, will create new life."
So too, in this scenario, less than even Homura, the only thing of Walpurgis to live on, be it as a witch or between timelines, is her feelings. In each timeline she has the intentions she had when she set out and can only trust that it is all true between timelines. But it was enough.
In Madoka, she found someone with the will to save everyone if only she had the power to do so. She gained that power.
In Homura, she found someone who would fight endlessly for the sake of another, if only she had the reason. She gained that reason.
It fits with Madoka's words to her in the end there too "It's over: You don't have to hate anyone anymore. You don't have to curse anyone anymore." A balm to the witch, because what witch wouldn't want to hear that?
And Walpugis is laughing there because, in that moment, she had won.
First PMMM is her plan to save herself. And, since we do see Walpurgis imagery in Rebellion and the Concept movie, perhaps than is her plan to first save Madoka can be saved from godhood, then later still Homura from devilhood, and perhaps even live again herself if the summoning of Madoka's "faeries" is any indication.
It fits with our metaknowledge and its inaccuracies too: Under such, our knowledge would be all the scenarios and plans that WPN thought up, and continues to think up.
Nevertheless, I say plan because, like all the best laid plans of witches and magical girls, it failed to survive contact with the enemy.
How often does an author think they've got everything thought out only for a character to do other than they thought they would? What if the difference is that Madoka just grew too powerful to be a little puppet and didn't make the wish that she was meant to? Because WPN was no longer strong enough to force Madoka's fate to follow her will anymore.
So Madoka made a wish that WPN did not intend. Not to become a god able to protect herself from grief, but to ensure everything could be fixed right then and there.
Perhaps there were other changes but it starts when the script can no longer be followed.
And if all that is true?
If the aim of Walpurgisnacht is indeed the end of her own grief, then it would be right for her to bear the name of "Dedolere," wouldn't it?
Especially after she won and secured her own happiness, if not quite how she had planned it.
----------------------
Of course, I'm assuming here the one blocking Oriko's visions in Our Benefactor is Walpurgis, and that what we see there is typical of how her power works when she applies herself, but I think that too fits with her motives speculated here: Sayaka contracted to be useful to us: It's not impossible to believe that WPN has found another form of dewitching to aim for, and in Sayaka she gave us the tools to do so.
But I wonder if this means that Walpugis has to be fought.
If her plan was dewitching all along, she might just be persuaded, if only we could find a means to talk.
If Kyuubey can talk to witches, WPN included, it might explain how it knows why he knew what we planning in Asunaro. He knows that she's after dewitching, and if he knows about us being made from her, then that we would do the same is obvious.
--------------------
This also has some potentialbomb implications. Because if that's the case then it's not just Homura who made that happen. Walpurgisnacht is also holding up Madoka as the center of everything, as the best hope for overwriting everything and breaking Kyuubey's system.
And it would also have implications for how Homura was able to make her wish too: Potential is born of how much your actions matter to everyone, and in that moment she made her wish she would have been everything to Walpugisnacht, who was no slouch in power herself. And so Homura attains the power to reach beyond the universe.
Both Homura and Madoka are depicted as caught in the strings and gears of fate, after all: an object seen incarnate in the form of Walpugis.
I don't know if it's a track for beating that bomb, but it's definitely something that Kyuubey would have left out in dropping it.
I mean, I don't think we've ever actually tested whether potentials and non-meguca can use Sayaka's gems. Though I think we brought it up at one point.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Hm. That's a fascinating theory, @The Phoenixian , in a lot of ways. It ties into what we know about Walpurgisnachts abilities exceedingly well, and directly explains the lack of a grief seed - as well as how Homura was able to make her wish.
And Walpurgisnacht is tied to feathers, thematically.
By some interpretations of the gospel, Judas Iscariot is venerated, because without his betrayal, Christ would not have risen.
E: Hah. This even explains why Sayaka suddenly has the potential to do all the things she's doing. We've said that she might become one of the strongest members of the team, yes? Well, what if Walpurgis leaned on Sayaka's potential, the same way she did for Homura's? (Or, for that matter, Oriko's, since Oriko's power is also unprecedented.)
And Walpurgisnacht is tied to feathers, thematically.
By some interpretations of the gospel, Judas Iscariot is venerated, because without his betrayal, Christ would not have risen.
E: Hah. This even explains why Sayaka suddenly has the potential to do all the things she's doing. We've said that she might become one of the strongest members of the team, yes? Well, what if Walpurgis leaned on Sayaka's potential, the same way she did for Homura's? (Or, for that matter, Oriko's, since Oriko's power is also unprecedented.)
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- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
" I've been Griefed!" "Who you gonna call?"
The possible sorts of defensive mind magic would make a good tangent now?
* Magic vs Magic - roll willpower to block connection
* Magic camouflage - cannot target the user
* Restore any alterations from backup - defense not visible to attacker
* Re-direct to a different target
* Magic vs Anti-magic
* Offensive perimeter - attack user behind incoming mental transmission
[Q] force magic connections away from our mind, and into a Grief Seed proxy we put in front of us.
-[Q] Taste the Rainbow
--[Q] Of Despair
[Q] Enchant mental protection onto sheets of tin foil
I can present a counter offer. Walpurgisnacht is not continuously present, probably because at other times it IS inside a barrier. The fight we see is her Limit Break, unlike Kriemhild Gretchen pulling the whole world into her barrier. Walpurgisnacht is likely recruiting whenever she is seen. As a conglomerate, her drive is probably to collect other Witches. When Walpurgis comes to Mitakihara she is going all out, because this is her jackpot.
I'm really not so sure Walpurgisnacht fits well with the lyrics of Magia, other than to say one could apply those lyrics to myriad Magical Girls other than Homura. Where is there anything that ties to this character specifically?
Tempt the Witch?
That would have to be fairly literal? As such, de-witching someone else right as it manifests, and have a spare body on the next table over? Unfortunately, I think we will have to de-Grief WPN before any 'logic' can be communicated. I bet Kyuubey can communicate with Witches - it has no emotions, so the spike of despair is only a signal artifact to it? OTOH, it probably can't get much information in or out, given the superhuman insanity level. Might vary a bit per individual, and even more likely Kyuubey doesn't put much effort into anything outside the entropy game. In some cases it might be able to lure or irritate a witch into changing location?
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Well, he is/was one of the Apostles and Sayaka does have an army of those weird circus thingies in the Rebellion.
But I think, that even taking this theory into account, Walpurgisnacht still has to be fought.
In the original anime, she's served the role of the major antagonist and the culmination of the plot arc. Considering her hypothetical plan requires the universe to follow narrative causality, she cannot relinquish this position. She has a role she has to act out or the whole spectacle becomes a meaningless farce.
That, and as I stated, Wallurgis doesn't wear pants. If she's an alternate version of Sabrina, that's very inconsiderate of her.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I'm not sure I buy it. This is a REALLY hopeful mindset for a witch, which...doesn't work.
Witches also can't self-terminate. Not even Homulilly, technically.
Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
When we say 'try to therapy Airi', how exactly do we plan to do that? She wants vengeance because Kyubey Witchbombed her right after the Pleiades killed Yuuri's Witch (and Wishes to take on her identity in order to avenge her). When she confronts them (in canon), she winds up despairing at the Saints' complete remorselessness because they weren't Bombed, and thus completely ignorant of the fact that there was ever a person there. This time around may be different-- Michiru is still alive in this timeline, and we know Niko is Witchbombed.
It seems to me that we aren't going to make much headway unless we have some kind of tangible progress to show her on reversingArzt Kochen Yuuri's condition, and the Saints (Niko, at least) absolutely have to be involved in that-- will Clear Seeds being responsive to magic be enough? It seems to me like we should put dewitching science before talking with her (unless it's been so long that I'm grievously misremembering something).
It seems to me that we aren't going to make much headway unless we have some kind of tangible progress to show her on reversing
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
The progress we've made with imparting positive emotions into Clear Seeds should be sufficient to convince Airi that there is a future path to dewitching, and that Sabrina is dedicated to that goal.
More importantly, we've already left Airi to stew for longer than I'd consider optimal - continuing to put the conversation off isn't going to do her mental state any favours.
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Appletank
Acquire Cheese
But can they learn about crying, even if it is something they can never do?
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Yes, more is at stake than just those two girls.
Learning to incarcerate correctly, and passing that example forward, is part of the long-term stability our culture could have.
Is this too complicated? As a whole, it is wholly beyond us. We need instruction, and assistance.
For today, it ISN'T too complicated. Consider a 'baby step' that won't harm things, and will have some value to the process later.
I'll give three propositions, and I'm hoping that more will come out from you all.
1) Already stated - do our Clear Seed process. Take it slow. For added value tell her in advance how bad this will feel, try to have her poke Artz Kochen before, and after. Prove that Clear does something good. This is the show she paid for.
2) Have her tell us stories of the times they were not contracted. Get to the part that motivates her, and learn that. Take notes. When she goes off the rails or cries, deal with it positively. Share, establish her place such that she can not despair.
3) Teach and test for Hope magic. It should be possible for her to raise emotion in the magic of Sabrina if we hold it out to her, as the anti-magic doesn't affect us. -Only- If she can get it right, poke a little to Arzt Kochen. We must do it with her, for now each time. Yes, it means direct contact with her. The quality control step has to get done. Some of us may "ick" at the thought, but I think that it is worth the price. At our social level, how else will we be able to test the state of her mind? If she goes off the rails in our absence, we don't want her to mess with her friends mind, so we don't want to have her do this solo. Anti-magic makes this a stepwise, controllable event. We may have to teach one of our allies how to do this with her, so that the schedule doesn't become binding.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Airi must have good memories of Yuuri, if she cared enough about her to make the wish she did. She should be able to put her hopes and happy memories into her magic, and thus into the Clear Seed, if we let her.
That... might require us to temporarily remove the antimagic bracelet, while we interact with her. Of course, if that's what we plan to do, we should discuss it with Yuki ahead of time so she can make her building ready for it.
That... might require us to temporarily remove the antimagic bracelet, while we interact with her. Of course, if that's what we plan to do, we should discuss it with Yuki ahead of time so she can make her building ready for it.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Confession: I'm kind of getting creeped out by the constant references to "Fattening Homu up". It's like we're a fairy tale witch or something worse that comes to my mind.
You know you might be onto something here
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
*Witch-girl intensifies*You know you might be onto something here
Heh I can immagine it now.
Sayaka: Geeze Sabrina sometimes you talk like a fairy tale witch.
Sabrina: I have no idea what your talking about.
*Sayaka gets distracted and looks away only to find that Sabrina now has a cauldron in front of her and a witch had on when she looks back*
Sabrina: What?
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- Location
- Location Location
In the Worm crossover, wasn't Sabrina's immediate idea for a cape costume a crow mask?
Wait, WHAT?
Give me a link. I need it for..... reasons.....
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Here.
Puella Magi Adfligo Vermis (PMAS/Worm) [Dead] - Crossover
Note that it is, in fact, a deadfic.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Yes, the pre-conditions should exist, and would be helpful. At the same time, I would try to be safety-first, and NOT remove the Anti-magic at all. As the person on lockdown, make her use other people's cooperation, until she earns some trust.
As a bonus, I think required interaction with sane people isn't a wrong step. We can't over-do it, but I think it will shock her into some better introspection.
We should try sharing a Hope enchantment right now, as a proof of concept.