I'm just going to +1 everything Kaizuki said. We need to emphasize that we actually, sincerely need Homura and her help.

And also, if Homura ever gets to that suicidal point and we're not there to instantly gem her or something, there's absolutely nothing we can do to save her. It's as easy as "I want to die. Sabrina will try to stop me. Timestop and gemsplode."
 
I mean...

I read Kaizuki's thing. And I still don't get it?

How is Homura making anything worse?

Madoka is alive now, and Sabrina exists now. Neither of those things were true when she made her wish. Where is this "net minus" thing coming from?
 
It's not a statement of objective fact. It's an attempt to describe how Homura sees it from her biased point of view.
 
It's not a statement of objective fact. It's an attempt to describe how Homura sees it from her biased point of view.

Sure, but, like, what's informing this belief? We can't challenge her opinions unless we know why she has them.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" and all that.
 
Madoka is alive now, and Sabrina exists now. Neither of those things were true when she made her wish. Where is this "net minus" thing coming from?
I think it's something like: Every time Homura loops, Madoka's potential grows. The higher Madoka's potential is the more extremes the incubator is willing to go to to contract her. Homura continues looping because she believes that eventually she will win, because the Incubator's will decide to go after a more appealing target. With the revelation that each loop drives the incubators to be more persistent in their attempts at a contract, instead of staying at the same level, Homura concludes that it's directly her fault that the incubators pursue Madoka, and therefore her fault that Madoka is hurt as more and more people get pulled into the incubator's attempts.
 
It's not a statement of objective fact. It's an attempt to describe how Homura sees it from her biased point of view.

In short, yes.

I mean...

I read Kaizuki's thing. And I still don't get it?

How is Homura making anything worse? Where is this "net minus" thing coming from?

That's fair because you're being rational. Homura is not; otherwise we'd be very, very screwed -- and there is some chance that something else plays into this, of course, in which case we might be screwed.

It's very much a failure to condition on current circumstances, probabilistically speaking -- but so was Homura's view on Oriko, for instance. Currently Homura does not consider herself to have made the chances of alive-uncontracted worse at any point in time -- sure, she's hurt Madoka, but that's an acceptable sacrifice if Madoka gets what she wants(ed), that being alive-uncontracted. And so the equation Homura is considering is Probability(I contribute something positive) + Probability(I don't contribute anything) >= 0, and her existence is fine.

The trouble is, well, "Good-for-nothing." Probability(I contribute something positive) approaches zero as far as Homura is calculating. If you add the slightest negativity to that pot...

Limit (Probability(I contribute something positive) -> 0):
Probability(I contribute something positive) + Probability(I don't contribute anything) + Probability(I harm the chances of alive-uncontracted | I HAVE ALREADY HARMED THE CHANCES OF ALIVE-UNCONTRACTED OH GOD) = !?!?!??!

That's the equation in Homura's head. And the problem in PMAS relative to canon is that in PMAS, there are chances of alive-uncontracted to be harmed.

And if it improves the chances of alive-uncontracted... Yeah.
 
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Sure, but, like, what's informing this belief? We can't challenge her opinions unless we know why she has them.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into" and all that.

Right, but Madoka's potential "topped off" ages ago. The Incubators actions and motivations haven't actually changed in any appreciable way for the past few dozen loops, at minimum.

We're basically going to have to convince her that her existence is helping, I think. We have to zero out the equation, or better than that. And that... that's... that's going to be interesting.
 
I mean...

I read Kaizuki's thing. And I still don't get it?

How is Homura making anything worse?

Madoka is alive now, and Sabrina exists now. Neither of those things were true when she made her wish. Where is this "net minus" thing coming from?
Sabrina only exist because Homura failed.

Sabrina is from her point of view not a result of what Homura has done.

The best thing to ever happen to the chances of Madoka survival is because of a failure on her part to stop it from happening.

It wasn't an conscious decision on her part, it wasn't something planned for, it was an error that she tried to stop.

Homura fundamentally doesn't see Sabrina's existence as a fundamentally good thing that she caused, but an unexpected result coming from the one thing Homura tries to stop.


Like if your friend is in a flunk and every thing you do to help them makes things worse, but because you've made them cry and run away, they ran into someone who got their situation, and was able to help them through it.

Or your friend is injured and you try to give them aid, make things worse, then have someone else, or the friend themself start to take over and actually deal with the injury.

That is closer to how she sees this situation.

The problem is convincing her differently is much more difficult than telling her the truth, since you first have to overcome her vast emotional trauma before she starts sincerely believing that.
 
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Right, but Madoka's potential "topped off" ages ago. The Incubators actions and motivations haven't actually changed in any appreciable way for the past few dozen loops, at minimum.

There is no minus.
I don't remember it saying that her potential was topped off but regardless, I think we can all agree that there's no minus. The problem isn't convincing us that Homura hasn't been a problem, it's convincing Homura that she hasn't been a problem.
 
We're basically going to have to convince her that her existence is helping, I think. We have to zero out the equation, or better than that. And that... that's... that's going to be interesting.

Hm. I mean, that isn't anything revolutionary - it was a big part of why we told her we think she helped Sabrina exist - but I definitely wouldn't mind making a more concerted effort to convince her she's useful.
 
Hm. I mean, that isn't anything revolutionary - it was a big part of why we told her we think she helped Sabrina exist - but I definitely wouldn't mind making a more concerted effort to convince her she's useful.

You're missing the point. It has to be future-tense.

Something like "she needs you."

And Iunno how to get there, gonna think about it.
 
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You're missing the point. It has to be future-tense.

I... can't really put myself in a headspace where Homura being useful in the future isn't an incredibly obvious fact. Like, it's literally unimaginable to me.

If you're saying that she doesn't see that... I mean, you were way better at the people thing than I am even when you claim you were at your lowest, so I guess I'll take your word for it, but it means Homura's experience is sufficiently removed from mine that I can't possibly contribute anything useful to this discussion.
 
I mean...

I read Kaizuki's thing. And I still don't get it?

How is Homura making anything worse?

Madoka is alive now, and Sabrina exists now. Neither of those things were true when she made her wish. Where is this "net minus" thing coming from?
She believes that hope and despair are conserved. Increased potential means increased suffering.
 
Okay no idea how to do literally anything here other than type so I can't quote Reshirt's words, however...

Edit: Thank you Torgamous for telling me how to quote.
where Homura being useful in the future isn't an incredibly obvious fact.

I can see Homura letting (or perhaps forcing?) Sayaka to copy her powers if she learned as Sayaka could then essentially "replace" her while not becoming anymore of a negative by removing herself. Admittedly that would require Sayaka to learn about the more intimate aspect of Homura's time travel, however at the point that she would be willing to do this I don't think that would really be a concern of her...
 
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Okay no idea how to do literally anything here other than type so I can't quote Reshirt's words, however...
The Reply button over the laughing face quotes an entire post and puts it in the text editor. If you highlight a part of a post, a little thing will pop out the bottom of the highlighted area, and if you click reply on it only the highlighted portion will be quoted and put in the text editor. Never use the +Quote function.
 
The Reply button over the laughing face quotes an entire post and puts it in the text editor. If you highlight a part of a post, a little thing will pop out the bottom of the highlighted area, and if you click reply on it only the highlighted portion will be quoted and put in the text editor. Never use the +Quote function.
I'll have you know I used +Quote to reply to this post, just because I could :V
 
I... can't really put myself in a headspace where Homura being useful in the future isn't an incredibly obvious fact.

Usefulness solely related to Madoka, and tempered by her (irrational, trauma-born) belief in her own uselessness. I can respect your post, though.

She believes that hope and despair are conserved. Increased potential means increased suffering.

Wat. I get what that means but idk if any evidence Homura believes that.
 
Let me try to explain how I see this.

Homura's sole reason to exist, to go through lord how knows how many loops, is because she thinks she can SAVE Madoka.

Kyubey then walks in and explains how every loop makes things (from Homura's PoV) WORSE for Madoka even if Homura is 'restarting'. All of her second, third, millionth chances are not fresh chances but actions done in a situation thats gotten worse.

Thus Homura views all of her actions thus far, the entire point of her wish, the crux of her motivation, to be not just pointless but at odds with what she wants.

Now. You may disagree on Homura's point of view on Madoka's increasing potential making things worse and so forth. But YOUR point of view does not immediately matter. Homura views how every time she loops she makes Madoka have more potential a fundamental failure for her.

How Kyubey reveals this information might also have had (will have) an effect on Homura's conclusions, but trying to get Homura to have a different view will require ... work. Though in the end we can't be sure of how Homura will react to the news until we tell her (or Kyubey does) - her need to save Madoka is to interwoven with her character, too fundamental to her ability to continue on. She will either be able to withstand it (and say decide THIS is the last loop because of us) or she crumbles utterly and completely. I doubt we will have anything in between.

Part of this is because, and I was going to bring this up for planning, the Potential bomb strikes at a KEY vulnerability of Homura's main strength, her center of gravity. Homura has an immense will, she can just keep going. She has this willpower because she believes she MUST save Madoka. The potential bomb takes that and shatters it into a million pieces.

From a general military tactics point of view, as Kyubey, the potential bomb is an awesomely quick way to destroy Homura totally. Which then can have knock on effects to Mami and thus Sabrina.

"There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the second, but you can be certain of getting the first."― Philip K. Dick

TL;DR - Homura, like most humans, is fundamentally running off emotions which means she sometimes is not logical to you or anyone else. Everything she does, inside her own frame of reference, makes sense TO HER though.
 
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Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

Okay, I don't get it. What is ununderstood about the Potentialbomb? How is our situation significantly different from the canon anime?

Like, I'm gonna make these statements here and please, please point out when I've started getting it wrong, because I really thought that the problem is not figuring why Potentialbomb is so bad, but how to defuse it.

Right, so
Homura has looped for approximately one hundred times
She had lived this month for more time than she had been alive
Every time she tried to succeed, she failed
Then Kyubey explains to her that every time she failed, she made things worse
She thought that she's getting a clean slate each time as per her Wish and basically got infinite do-overs
Then she looks back and realizes that every next loop was worse than the previous for Madoka specifically, like more Potential, more power, more Hope, more Despair
She hurt Madoka by trying to help her for fourteen years
Madoka was the first ( and only in the anime ) one who made Homura think that her existence might not be worthless
And she hurt her
Doesn't matter whether she gets do-overs or succeeds this time
Because she basically committed a cardinal sin in her Madoka-centered morality and deserves to be punished, she deserves to suffer, she deserves to die at the very freaking least

Soo
How is my inner understanding of Homura wrong?
I'm not being passive-aggressive here
I genuinely thought this was the aggreed on explanation that has been carried over from the anime
 
Soo
How is my inner understanding of Homura wrong?
I'm not being passive-aggressive here
I genuinely thought this was the aggreed on explanation that has been carried over from the anime

Nope pretty much get it

I think some people can't quite understand WHY Homura reacts so poorly to the bomb thats all. Since its, looking at it, a VERY VERY VERY stupid conclusion to go from 'I made thing worse for her' to 'I SHOULD KILL MYSELF' ... but it makes perfect sense... to Homura.
 
Alright, this isn't going to be my most coherent of posts, on account of crappy sleep cycle issues. If any of this comes across as insulting, please do not take it as such, that's just me being shit at writing properly at the moment.

But before getting into some of the responses and theories put forth already, let me add a few other ideas that were bandied about elsewhere.

Hypothesis: Homura doesn't want anything to get out that would lead Madoka to be attached to her. The potentialbomb is so bad for Homura partially because it means that she's attached Madoka to herself on a fundamental level and that she'll never be able to undo it. Homura is an orphan, raised thinking she was an unwanted leech, draining the good from people. Potentialbomb applies similar emotional-logic to her connection to Madoka?

Another possible take is "Homura doesn't realize she's not time-travelling, potentialbomb causes her to realize she isn't"

Anyway, back to what's been brought up here:
I mean...

I read Kaizuki's thing. And I still don't get it?

How is Homura making anything worse?

Madoka is alive now, and Sabrina exists now. Neither of those things were true when she made her wish. Where is this "net minus" thing coming from?
I think that this is a strong possibility for the fundamental disconnect. Homura categorically cannot accept Madoka making a wish as being a good thing, because every wish made is another time that she failed to uphold her promise, another time Madoka was doomed to a nightmare of suffering.

Keep in mind, Homura's wish wasn't to "make things better", her wish was "I want to redo my first encounter with Kaname-san. But this time, instead of her protecting me, I want to become strong enough to protect her!"

It's possible that Madoka's wish resulting in things being fixed by Sabrina catastrophically undermines that, because it meant that, in effect, Madoka had to save herself. Homura will have failed in her promise, and failed her wish.

(It's also possible that Homura won't respond the same way to the potentialbomb in PMAS, that rather than rapidly giving in to despair on failing to defeat Walpurgisnacht again, she suffers wish-rejection.)

That's fair because you're being rational. Homura is not
You know, I'm not at all convinced she is being irrational. If we must accept the multiverse crap, then if Homura doesn't loop, the Madoka in the next timeline has fairly low potential and could reasonably not be contracted due to the variables between worlds. But if she does loop, then that Madoka will have enormous potential and thus be guaranteed to be caught up in magical girl horrors... and then either die or turn into a humanity-destroying superwitch. On both a personal and a general level, the outcome of her continuing to loop would be bad. Now, with our privileged outside-view, knowing that Madoka can completely wreck reality's face, we know that there's results that are better at a general level, but even with that, on a personal level? Sabrina, or the Law of Cycles, don't change the fundamental issue there -- that Homura failed in her wish and failed in her promise, so rather than her helping, she's just tagging along, still the same worthless leech she's always been.
 
You know, I'm not at all convinced she is being irrational. If we must accept the multiverse crap, then if Homura doesn't loop, the Madoka in the next timeline has fairly low potential and could reasonably not be contracted due to the variables between worlds. But if she does loop, then that Madoka will have enormous potential and thus be guaranteed to be caught up in magical girl horrors... and then either die or turn into a humanity-destroying superwitch. On both a personal and a general level, the outcome of her continuing to loop would be bad. Now, with our privileged outside-view, knowing that Madoka can completely wreck reality's face, we know that there's results that are better at a general level, but even with that, on a personal level? Sabrina, or the Law of Cycles, don't change the fundamental issue there -- that Homura failed in her wish and failed in her promise, so rather than her helping, she's just tagging along, still the same worthless leech she's always been.

I'm purposely ignoring the multiverse stuff in all of my posts because nobody but us has any idea it exists and so it can't influence anyone's judgement, which is good because we don't like how it would influence people.
 
Another possible take is "Homura doesn't realize she's not time-travelling, potentialbomb causes her to realize she isn't"
How? In the time travel framework time isn't allowed to proceed past Walpurgisnacht unless Madoka survives, while as a slider Homura is only connecting Madokas together. If anything time travel should make her potential rise faster than it actually did.
 
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