That's my personal theory as to what's going on with feathers etc. I think Oriko was very clear that it was not a witch, and therefore it is not Dedolere. However I think most of the thread may disagree with me there.
Something that's very important to remember if this turns out to be the case is that this iteration of Homura, even if she did become a self-described demon, is still our best friend, and a person we want to talk to and help come to a solution that she will be okay with in the end.
On a different note, giving Homura the IRC info and asking her to help with that is a wonderful idea and something we should definitely do.
That's my personal theory as to what's going on with feathers etc. I think Oriko was very clear that it was not a witch, and therefore it is not Dedolere. However I think most of the thread may disagree with me there.
Something that's very important to remember if this turns out to be the case is that this iteration of Homura, even if she did become a self-described demon, is still our best friend, and a person we want to talk to and help come to a solution that she will be okay with in the end.
Personally, I'm not sure of the nature of the Feathers, as in who or what it/she is, but I'm pretty confident in what her role is.
She's basically our primary antagonist. And I mean it, like, consider the following:
Madokami wishes everything could be fixed
Her Wish decides to fix everything retroactively, I guess, or latched on to Homura for some other reason ( like dewitching her, for example )
What is the expected response of the universe in this case? And remember, we're talking about the Urobutcher's setting here, the man who would consider freaking Martin a good drinking buddy.
"Fuck you."
Madoka's original Wish was creative in its application: she circumvents the problem of her eventual Witching out by traveling in time and punching herself in the face, basically. Her collective Potential allows her to do that and emerge victorious again, again and again.
But this time, she's not taking the central stage.
We are. Supposedly, as a result of her Wish.
Soooo
The Feathers' actual job seems to be to make us lose to balance out Hope and Despair or some shit
While Madokami's Wish and enormous Potential allows us to win. Potentially, heh.
That's my personal theory as to what's going on with feathers etc. I think Oriko was very clear that it was not a witch, and therefore it is not Dedolere. However I think most of the thread may disagree with me there.
Something that's very important to remember if this turns out to be the case is that this iteration of Homura, even if she did become a self-described demon, is still our best friend, and a person we want to talk to and help come to a solution that she will be okay with in the end.
ummm... Homura's wish was to let her protect Madoka rather then get protected. Question thus becomes - does the wish consider Madokami Madoka? Since Homura's wish to be able to protect Madoka would thus need to scale up to let her be a goddesses right hand girl.
Though if that exceeds Homura potential then.. ummm
though if THIS Madoka wished for everything to get fixed and everything extends into TL's where Madokami was a thing and Homucifer was a thing then that means Homucifer is fixable.
One needs to work out the interactions between Madokami's Madoka's wish, Homura's wish, last TL's Madoka's wish and the nature of many timelines all falling under Madokami's domain.
.... I'm not sober enough for this... or drunk enough... one of the two.
Magical girl or not, she's still intelligent, influential among our group, and oriented towards abiding the law. Which is a problem when our solutions skirt it just by existing.
The simple fact that she is logically-inclined, intelligent, and not in urgent need of therapy means that she will not be a problem. If we think that the evidence we will provide will allow Hitomi to correctly come to a problematic conclusion, then that would be a problem. I do not think that Hitomi is likely to be able to do that. I think that we would have to try very hard to deliver an explanation that would leave Sayaka, of all people, with a better opinion than Hitomi.
Of course, I could be misreading my vote. I've tried my best to have actual facts and shit in the argument, but because the only actual feedback I've gotten has been "I don't like it", for all I know I've accidentally voted to embark on a week-long emotional gaslighting campaign. You'd at least be able to tell me if that's what you were reading in my vote, right?
Also, recall again that we keep being told that good faith and open communication are better than HARD GIRLS MAKING HARD DECISIONS. It doesn't need to be fucking perfect. What it needs to be is done, so that we don't end up with another Sayaka wish or table smash event after we put it off repeatedly. Hitomi would be far more right to condemn us for chickening out than she would be for all but the most reprehensible attempts at manipulation.
I'm kinda super sketch on the idea of giving Homura a play by play of our approach to discussing Oriko, though. Sufficiently so that I can't vote for Veb's plan.
There's the privacy issue, and both its practical and ethical issues, but that's already been discussed so I'll avoid rehashing that argument - there are other reasons not to do it.
For one thing, while Sabrina may have multitasking, I've been extremely unimpressed with her performance when trying to multitask social issues - we saw this most clearly in Asunaro when trying to juggle Hijiri and Airi.
Some of that is probably just a restriction of the format, with it being hard to write multiple concurrent conversations well - but it being a meta level issue doesn't make it not an issue.
For another thing, while Sabrina may have multitasking, Homura doesn't. It seems kind of ass-backwards to try to improve her social skills by distracting her while a conversation that she could have pretty significant input on happens - we'd be better served by prompting her to offer her own opinions to Sayaka and Hitomi when the appropriate openings come up.
Especially since we brushed off discussing the specifics of how the new power would change our strategy for containing Oriko by telling Homura that we'd discuss it out of timestop with Sayaka and Hitomi - she's gonna want to share her input there.
And to some degree... giving Homura live social advice just seems kind of arrogant to me. Sabrina isn't a social savant by any measure, she's only just barely adequate. There's a real chance that Sayaka will blow up at us despite our best efforts, which will rather undermine the point.
That's not our fault - someone directly run by a quest thread was always going to be spastic at best no matter what we did - but if we want to get Homura public speaking lessons, we should delegate it to someone actually good at social - Mami could do it.
I do prefer how @Vebyast 's vote handles a number of things, and his point on discussing Oriko promptly being more important than discussing it "perfectly" is well made, so here's an edit of his vote I feel comfortable with.
[X] In whatever order makes sense:
[x] Brainmail the Pleiades. Topics:
-[x] Current events. How are things? The situation in Tokyo.
-[x] Defenses against mind magic.
[X] Enchantment topics:
-[x] Suggestion for Sayaka: Copying enchantments, enchantments that copy other powers?
-[X] Use/share enchantment booster for rapid prototyping.
-[X] Protective enchantments. Mind shields, antimagic, maybe danger-vision from one of the sight powers, etc.
-[X] Griefhax with emotion-enchanted grief.
[X] Ask Hitomi about inviting Homura to the Shizukidinner.
[X] Sanitized summary of Tokyo for everyone
-[X] Light on details; you'll write the details up later so you don't mess up while extemporizing (and so you can run it past Homura first).
[X] Mention wanting to bring mental health professionals into this somehow. Cite Akemi & Norikos as example of why.
[X] Mention Oriko's new powers. Same routine as earlier, explain wish magic and its relationship to a girl's thinking, but take a slightly more emotional/romantic viewpoint so it plays better to Sayaka and Madoka. -[x] Address any concerns Hitomi brings up as well.
-[x] Prompt Homura to add her own input as appropriate moments come up for it.
[X] Ask everyone (besides Hitomi) if they'll be staying for dinner.
-[x] Don't let Homura leave until you've loaded her down with food.
In the interest of the thread's attention span: Unless we've done so recently, we should still check in with Niko specifically while we're chatting with the Saints.
In the interest of the thread's attention span: Unless we've done so recently, we should still check in with Niko specifically while we're chatting with the Saints.
talk to her about recent clear seed breakthroughs among other things I assume?
it also couldn't hurt to try to pay attention to hijiri Kanna, not this moment but it isn't something we should just forget about. and we have the object permanence of a one year old
Eh, that's fair. I feel like we should at least point out that we're taking a different approach, because Homura would appreciate it and I don't see Sayaka or Madoka being annoyed that we're trying to help Homura understand her friends better - honestly, probably the opposite - but you're right that she probably can't keep up with even a quick play-by-play.
[X] In whatever order makes sense:
[x] Brainmail the Pleiades. Topics:
-[x] Current events. How are things? The situation in Tokyo.
-[x] Defenses against mind magic.
[X] Enchantment topics:
-[x] Suggestion for Sayaka: Copying enchantments, enchantments that copy other powers?
-[X] Use/share enchantment booster for rapid prototyping.
-[X] Protective enchantments. Mind shields, antimagic, maybe danger-vision from one of the sight powers, etc.
-[X] Griefhax with emotion-enchanted grief.
[X] Ask Hitomi about inviting Homura to the Shizukidinner.
[X] Sanitized summary of Tokyo for everyone
-[X] Light on details; you'll write the details up later so you don't mess up while extemporizing (and so you can run it past Homura first).
[X] Mention wanting to bring mental health professionals into this somehow. Cite Akemi & Norikos as example of why.
[X] Mention Oriko's new powers. Same routine as earlier, explain wish magic and its relationship to a girl's thinking, but take a slightly more emotional/romantic viewpoint so it plays better to Sayaka and Madoka.
-[x] Address any concerns Hitomi brings up as well.
-[x] Prompt Homura to add her own input as appropriate moments come up for it. -[x] Quickly point out to Homura that you're taking a different approach, so she knows to pay attention so she can get to know her friends better.
[X] Ask everyone (besides Hitomi) if they'll be staying for dinner.
-[x] Don't let Homura leave until you've loaded her down with food.
The Madoka of Rebellion's ending is not that; she sees Homura as a stranger and will never be allowed to remember or understand or truly connect with Homura because Homura will never allow it, and we know Homura can't actually emotionally settle for that because the idea of her and Madoka drifting from each other as the loops caused made her break down in tears. Homucifer is resigned to the apparent inevitability that Madoka will hate her.
In what fucking sense has she won?
Also, as for the bold, the Concept Movie has very explicit imagery of Ultimate Gretchen preparing to consume the universe, which makes sense since Madokami is not up in heaven punching her out. OOPS.
Oh, please.Don't cite something that isn't even in the Concept Movie. Give me a timestamp, why don't you, because I just watched it several times to check just in case you actually had a point. Are you perhaps talking about the building covered in satellite dishes with a grief-seed roof that shows up in 3:08, which bears no resemblance whatsoever with Kriemheld Gretchen, Ultimate Gretchen, or Homulily? The one we see Mami standing on, pointing a gun out in space at something offscreen? There's another (very stylized, might not even be a scene in the movie) image that flashed for less than half a second too at 0:50, with a Clara-Doll that looks sorta like Madoka with a moon in the background that kinda looks like Gretchen if you squint, even though it's the wrong shape and doesn't have a face.
We have no idea what the central conflict of the movie is going to be, but it's heavily implied to be yet another Incubator plot, considering we get ominous Kyubey eyes at every scene transition. As for stuff that's actually in the trailer?
The Concept Movie has explicit dialogue of Madoka and Homura interacting socially beyond the scope of total strangers, for instance. Homura is watching Madoka dance and chatting with her, for heaven's sake. Even without Concept Movie citations, by the end of Rebellion Homura has put herself in a position where she will be forced to interact with Madoka and her other friends, if only to assuage the doubts she had in her own abilities.
H/M: Do you know what happiness is?
M: It's shining May sunshine.
H: It's the warmth of family.
M: It's having fried eggs for breakfast.
H/M: But Heaven has none of those things.
H/M: Do you know what happiness is?
H: It's having your name called by someone.
M: It's calling someone's name.
H: It's having someone thinking of you.
H/M: But God had none of these things.
H: A lizard-girl took pity on God...
M: ...and so the lizard girl tore God in two, and kidnapped one of her halves to Earth from Heaven.
H: That even an act so cruel can seem like a ray of light in the middle of darkness... It's beautiful.
The final line is certainly indicative of acceptance towards her own actions and having hope for the future, not to mention how the rest of the script relates to my original point-still a better ending than the first season, where:
Madoka is forced to struggle for all eternity, subsumed into a 'higher purpose' without any chance for normalcy or taking back her decision.
At multiple points in the Concept Movie, Rebellion, and the original series itself, we are confronted with evidence that Madoka is secretly unsatisfied with her choices and responsibilities, but refuses to admit it because that would make her friends sad and go against Japanese cultural work norms, which her mother (partially) exemplifies.
-It is generally agreed that the ending song for the first two episodes of PMMM was a trick, designed to make people think the show is a cutesy slice of life experience, before we get hit with the dramatic plot twists and the ED shifts to the more dramatic Magia. Some people read the lyrics, or perhaps check the wiki, and realise that Magia is about Homura's character and her struggles to save Madoka. Even fewer people keep reading, and learn that the first ending song was written with the intent to be a character song representing Madoka-after episode 12. The lyrics to the entire song are about how a person is sad and lonely that she has to leave, and is abandoning her friends and/or family, but puts on a brave face and lies about being happy so that they don't worry about her.
-The whole point of the flower garden scene in Rebellion, and the conversation between Homura and Madoka therein, is that, when Madoka is presented with the situation of a person going through what she would, but without:
-The last minute pressure to save the lives of her (dead) friends, family, and city from Walpurgishnaught and Kyubey
-The knowledge that her choice is irreversible, and that reassuring people is better for their health than 'burdening' them with your own worries (which ties back into Madoka's character trait of thinking herself a burden and wanting to be useful no matter what it takes)
-The Japanese cultural pressure to always put on a brave face and refuse to admit weakness, dissatisfaction, or mental illness
-Focusing on the idea that being satisfied in the knowledge you are doing something 'good' is better than your own health and happiness
...She is willing to admit that she wouldn't choose to sacrifice everything to do so, without the situation pushing her into it.
-The Concept Movie quoted above, again: Happiness is found in the simple pleasures of life, but Heaven has none of those things.
And do you know what?
Homura did win.
In practical terms, all her goals are achieved:
Mikatihara city has been saved from Walpurgishnaught. Her friends are safe.
The Incubators have been subjugated, and will no longer torment her, her friends, or countless young girls throughout history.
The Wraiths, this new enemy born from the universe rejecting Madoka's wish for salvation for Magical Girls, will eventually be annihilated.
Madoka has the chance to live a normal, happy life.
In social terms, she's a little rocky. This I can agree with. Homura has depressed and suicidal imagery. She dislikes the thought of having drifted away from Madoka over the course of the loops, is saddened that Madoka sees her as a stranger, and won't be capable of reaching out to confide any of her real issues with anyone other than Kyubey, who isn't exactly prime therapist material.
What I don't agree with is the idea that this is an inevitable failure, an endless spiral downwards for her until she actually does commit suicide, having remained disconnected with all of her friends. In Rebellion we see her still participating in school, associating with all of her friends. She reaches out to Madoka, introducing herself and making a clear attempt to form a bond. Just because she feels disconnected doesn't mean that she doesn't care and won't keep fighting-to be quite frank she cares all too much, by most interpretations. In the Concept Move we see that she does successfully create some sort of bond or relationship with the current Madoka, and continues to try and fight to achieve her goals in the face of whatever overarching opposition arrives next.
Just because that victory has some aspects you may be morally unwilling to accept, and because your outlook on Homura's character and relationships is extremely pessimistic, doesn't make it less of a victory.
In the original series, everyone lived happily ever after(ominous sequel-bait post-credits imagery notwithstanding) except for Madoka and Homura, who got bittersweet endings. In Rebellion, everyone lived happily ever after(ominous sequel-bait denouement-dialogue notwithstanding) except Homura, who got a controversially (and in some ways sadder) bittersweet ending, and Kyubey, who got a bad ending. What a person thinks of that is up to them.
In conclusion: There's a reason we're fighting to break the system in this quest. It's because the canon ending was awful, and Rebellion, in spite of its more victorious and differently-hopeful leanings, was also forged from a pile of angst and suffering.
Oh, please.Don't cite something that isn't even in the Concept Movie. Give me a timestamp, why don't you, because I just watched it several times to check just in case you actually had a point. Are you perhaps talking about the building covered in satellite dishes with a grief-seed roof that shows up in 3:08, which bears no resemblance whatsoever with Kriemheld Gretchen, Ultimate Gretchen, or Homulily? The one we see Mami standing on, pointing a gun out in space at something offscreen? There's another (very stylized, might not even be a scene in the movie) image that flashed for less than half a second too at 0:50, with a Clara-Doll that looks sorta like Madoka with a moon in the background that kinda looks like Gretchen if you squint, even though it's the wrong shape and doesn't have a face.
We have no idea what the central conflict of the movie is going to be, but it's heavily implied to be yet another Incubator plot, considering we get ominous Kyubey eyes at every scene transition. As for stuff that's actually in the trailer?
The Concept Movie has explicit dialogue of Madoka and Homura interacting socially beyond the scope of total strangers, for instance. Homura is watching Madoka dance and chatting with her, for heaven's sake. Even without Concept Movie citations, by the end of Rebellion Homura has put herself in a position where she will be forced to interact with Madoka and her other friends, if only to assuage the doubts she had in her own abilities.
H/M: Do you know what happiness is?
M: It's shining May sunshine.
H: It's the warmth of family.
M: It's having fried eggs for breakfast.
H/M: But Heaven has none of those things.
H/M: Do you know what happiness is?
H: It's having your name called by someone.
M: It's calling someone's name.
H: It's having someone thinking of you.
H/M: But God had none of these things.
H: A lizard-girl took pity on God...
M: ...and so the lizard girl tore God in two, and kidnapped one of her halves to Earth from Heaven.
H: That even an act so cruel can seem like a ray of light in the middle of darkness... It's beautiful.
The final line is certainly indicative of acceptance towards her own actions and having hope for the future, not to mention how the rest of the script relates to my original point-still a better ending than the first season, where:
Madoka is forced to struggle for all eternity, subsumed into a 'higher purpose' without any chance for normalcy or taking back her decision.
At multiple points in the Concept Movie, Rebellion, and the original series itself, we are confronted with evidence that Madoka is secretly unsatisfied with her choices and responsibilities, but refuses to admit it because that would make her friends sad and go against Japanese cultural work norms, which her mother (partially) exemplifies.
-It is generally agreed that the ending song for the first two episodes of PMMM was a trick, designed to make people think the show is a cutesy slice of life experience, before we get hit with the dramatic plot twists and the ED shifts to the more dramatic Magia. Some people read the lyrics, or perhaps check the wiki, and realise that Magia is about Homura's character and her struggles to save Madoka. Even fewer people keep reading, and learn that the first ending song was written with the intent to be a character song representing Madoka-after episode 12. The lyrics to the entire song are about how a person is sad and lonely that she has to leave, and is abandoning her friends and/or family, but puts on a brave face and lies about being happy so that they don't worry about her.
-The whole point of the flower garden scene in Rebellion, and the conversation between Homura and Madoka therein, is that, when Madoka is presented with the situation of a person going through what she would, but without:
-The last minute pressure to save the lives of her (dead) friends, family, and city from Walpurgishnaught and Kyubey
-The knowledge that her choice is irreversible, and that reassuring people is better for their health than 'burdening' them with your own worries (which ties back into Madoka's character trait of thinking herself a burden and wanting to be useful no matter what it takes)
-The Japanese cultural pressure to always put on a brave face and refuse to admit weakness, dissatisfaction, or mental illness
-Focusing on the idea that being satisfied in the knowledge you are doing something 'good' is better than your own health and happiness
...She is willing to admit that she wouldn't choose to sacrifice everything to do so, without the situation pushing her into it.
-The Concept Movie quoted above, again: Happiness is found in the simple pleasures of life, but Heaven has none of those things.
And do you know what?
Homura did win.
In practical terms, all her goals are achieved:
Mikatihara city has been saved from Walpurgishnaught. Her friends are safe.
The Incubators have been subjugated, and will no longer torment her, her friends, or countless young girls throughout history.
The Wraiths, this new enemy born from the universe rejecting Madoka's wish for salvation for Magical Girls, will eventually be annihilated.
Madoka has the chance to live a normal, happy life.
In social terms, she's a little rocky. This I can agree with. Homura has depressed and suicidal imagery. She dislikes the thought of having drifted away from Madoka over the course of the loops, is saddened that Madoka sees her as a stranger, and won't be capable of reaching out to confide any of her real issues with anyone other than Kyubey, who isn't exactly prime therapist material.
What I don't agree with is the idea that this is an inevitable failure, an endless spiral downwards for her until she actually does commit suicide, having remained disconnected with all of her friends. In Rebellion we see her still participating in school, associating with all of her friends. She reaches out to Madoka, introducing herself and making a clear attempt to form a bond. Just because she feels disconnected doesn't mean that she doesn't care and won't keep fighting-to be quite frank she cares all too much, by most interpretations. In the Concept Move we see that she does successfully create some sort of bond or relationship with the current Madoka, and continues to try and fight to achieve her goals in the face of whatever overarching opposition arrives next.
Just because that victory has some aspects you may be morally unwilling to accept, and because your outlook on Homura's character and relationships is extremely pessimistic, doesn't make it less of a victory.
In the original series, everyone lived happily ever after(ominous sequel-bait post-credits imagery notwithstanding) except for Madoka and Homura, who got bittersweet endings. In Rebellion, everyone lived happily ever after(ominous sequel-bait denouement-dialogue notwithstanding) except Homura, who got a controversially (and in some ways sadder) bittersweet ending, and Kyubey, who got a bad ending. What a person thinks of that is up to them.
In conclusion: There's a reason we're fighting to break the system in this quest. It's because the canon ending was awful, and Rebellion, in spite of its more victorious and differently-hopeful leanings, was also forged from a pile of angst and suffering.
2:43 in this video. This exact screencap was part of the Madogatari collage image that showed images of the Witch of Despair from Episode 12 and gave us its fucking witch card. For some weird reason, Homura and Sayaka are looking at this thing in an elevator.
I'm not even deigning the rest of this with a response, because I don't appreciate being rudely condescended to and implied to be a liar.
2:43 in this video. This exact screencap was part of the Madogatari collage image that showed images of the Witch of Despair from Episode 12 and gave us its fucking witch card. For some weird reason, Homura and Sayaka are looking at this thing in an elevator.
I'm not even deigning the rest of this with a response, because I don't appreciate being rudely condescended to and implied to be a liar.
I asked for a citation, because-to the extent of my knowledge-
had nothing to do with Ultimate Gretchen, given that the area beyond the black bars is somewhat obscured, and it doesn't look very similar to
beyond both being circular.
Given that yes, that was the video I watched several times at different speeds, and nowhere else does anything related to Gretchen show up, as far as I was aware at the time you were lying, and I must apologise for implying that when I asked what you were talking about.
On a side note, I'd appreciate it if someone could link to the source for the original image collage with a Witch of Despair card, because I can't seem to find it and haven't seen them myself. When was the collage released? That might help the search, at any rate.
Upon reflection of this image, however, I do not believe that it supports your argument yet.
In the image, we see Ultimate Gretchen(who is hereafter referred to as U.G.) through a sheet of metal bars, being viewed by Homura and Sayaka, or perhaps a Clara Doll with a similar short haircut. It is a single still frame image, taken from what appears(I'm afraid I can't find the original image, and as such am making an assumption here) to be re-used concept art of U.G. that didn't reflect the final product in the anime.
The image(and by extension U.G.) doesn't seem to be the focus of the Concept Movie, which appears to have been placed on character dynamics and mystery/information gathering, as well as the development of Mami's character. This immediately downplays the threat posed by U.G. towards Homura's new universe, as we have no frame of reference as to whether it's a threat or not. In addition, we see here that U.G. is behind bars- This could imply that it has been imprisoned, and is not a threat to the universe whatsoever. In short-your statement that the Post-Rebellion universe is doomed because 'We have explicit imagery of Ultimate Kriemheld Gretchen preparing to consume the universe' does not hold water.
I would also like to condescendingly note for the record that, from my perspective, you have responded to a post containing over 1000 words and multiple citations (not including the word count of or a single reference to the bit where I tried to call you out, I might add, as that was an opening statement of rebuttal and not related to my arguments) with a grand total of 73, dismissing the entire thing with an attack on my character because you disliked my opening textual tone. A dislike which, apparently, leads to you refusing to acknowledge my statements and accusing me of arguing in bad faith.
Okay, I still have some contentions to make, but I think Redshirt addressed my primary concerns about this way forward better than I could, and they've been satisfied.
[X] In whatever order makes sense:
[x] Brainmail the Pleiades. Topics:
-[x] Current events. How are things? The situation in Tokyo.
-[x] Defenses against mind magic.
[X] Enchantment topics:
-[x] Suggestion for Sayaka: Copying enchantments, enchantments that copy other powers? -[X] Offer to share enchantment booster for rapid prototyping; You think putting focus on protective enchantments would be helpful if possible.
-[X] Your own enchantment practice: --[X] See how using emotionally charged magic affects enchantments made with it.
--[X] Make emotion-enchanted grief. See how it responds to griefhax.
---[X] Try to recycle the enchanted grief after you're done with it.
The more time goes by, the more I'm souring on attempting to make protective enchantments ourselves. Suggesting it to others is one thing, but I simply don't get the impression that we personally are at the point where we can specifically aim for something like that. Perhaps Mami, Homura and Sayaka can do such things, but we ourselves should put specific focus elsewhere.
For similar reasons, I feel like the enchantment booster will be of limited utility. Mami can use it, maybe Homura will be able to (though she's said herself that she's not near Mami's level,) and Sayaka might have a use for it if copying is her core enchantment, and only then if copying existing enchantments is part of that.
It's worth offering, but because they share a similar intentions and issues of all that I've grouped these together.
Instead, I think we should focus on working out our basics and expanding our repertoire. Tracking kind of does that, but I think "experimenting with how things work" gets to the core of what we should be doing much better.
[X] Ask Hitomi about inviting Homura to the Shizukidinner.
[X] Sanitized summary of Tokyo for everyone
-[X] Light on details; you'll write the details up later so you don't mess up while extemporizing (and so you can run it past Homura first).
Okay, so I've doublechecked and we haven't told Hitomi anything about the decisions with Oriko and Kirika. So I'm going to add that.
[X] Mention Oriko's new powers. Same routine as earlier, explain wish magic and its relationship to a girl's thinking, but take a slightly more emotional/romantic viewpoint so it plays better to Sayaka and Madoka. -[x] Fill Hitomi in on past decisions about Oriko and Kirika and address any concerns she brings up. She's part of that whole mess too after all.
-[x] Prompt Homura to add her own input as appropriate moments come up for it.
-[x] Quickly point out to Homura that you're taking a different approach, so she knows to pay attention so she can get to know her friends better.
[X] Ask everyone besides Hitomi if they'll be staying for dinner, and ask Homura to stay afterwards.
And it occurs to me that it also follows naturally from the Tokyo visit, topic-wise.
Okay, so I am going to outline this, but I think it's for next update.
[] Discuss recruiting from afield for Walpurgisnacht:
-[] You've gotten Fukushima on board, and you'd be shocked if the Saint's weren't willing to help, but you think this is something you shouldn't do alone. As much as you've had some luck, dealmaking simply isn't your skillset.
-[] Ask if Homura especially, she'd be interested in looking into IRCs herself for the purposes of recruitment.
Part of the reason I'm going to keep the vote for attempting recycling is because having a free privacy device allows us to discuss metaknowledge about Walpurgisnacht, being able to talk theory about her powers sounds useful for strategizing to beat her.
Specifically, we talk among ourselves a lot about one of WPN's primary powers being selective invulnerability. And had even before the Kamihama stuff. It may be worth raising that recruiting is as much about outweighing her helplessness through sheer numbers as much as having more people on the battlefield.
Uhm... An awful lot of self-sacrificial ones? I'm, I'm just saying, but, uh, she kind of considers herself expendable and weeeee really don't because she's not.
Uhm... An awful lot of self-sacrificial ones? I'm, I'm just saying, but, uh, she kind of considers herself expendable and weeeee really don't because she's not.
...Okay, in all seriousness I cannot at all buy the idea of Homura sacrificing herself in a deal because Sabrina exists. All of Homura's self-sacrificing bargains in canon are contingent on her believing A) That her continued existence would be a danger to Madoka, and B) That no one else would really miss her.
Neither of these are true, because we exist, and Homura knows it.
It would then be reasonable to directly ask Mami to do this?
-[] Defenses against mind magic.
[] As a group, work on developing mind/memory protection.
-[] Protective enchantments. Mind shields, antimagic, maybe danger-vision from one of the sight powers, etc.
None of these ask Mami to bring out her original technique, nor have us pass the baton to her.
Those intentions are not excluded, true. They are also left entirely to interpretation.
Much as we are not directly asking Sayaka to try to combine Memory and Anti magic for us. But she could attempt.
We could make a general request for the exact intent that we think is best, instead of waiting to see what rolls out of the gatcha.
Does that not seem like the best way to go?
Oriko topic might be best by - splitting the duty - with Homura? We can explain a bit about Wish psychology right now - that is a great fit with Enchantment research, BTW. When time runs out for the work session, we can ask Hitomi and Sayaka to get Oriko details from Homura in a conversation off stage? They get to have a moment to think about the situation, because yelling would not do anything. It will be a chance to commiserate together, helping build bonds. We will certainly get a "part B" with Sayaka later, and it will be well thought out, instead of emotionally raw.
...Okay, in all seriousness I cannot at all buy the idea of Homura sacrificing herself in a deal because Sabrina exists. All of Homura's self-sacrificing bargains in canon are contingent on her believing A) That her continued existence would be a danger to Madoka, and B) That no one else would really miss her.
Neither of these are true, because we exist, and Homura knows it.
Agreed. Sabrina is the existence specifically crafted to bypass Homura's symptoms and drag her back to her better self. It had gotten to the point where none of these girls could push through, but now the journey has begun and Homura is waking up.
In canon, she is able to deal with Kyouko. Her negotiation ability was not highlighted, yet certainly doesn't seem low. As Homura is pretty much an avatar of delayed gratification, she has the specs to learn proper basic negotiation.
I came up with a few additional refinements to the vote. Have a look and see if they seem reasonable.
[X] In whatever order makes sense:
[x] Brainmail the Pleiades, including Mami on the line. Topics:
-[x] Current events. How are things? The situation in Tokyo.
-[x] Defenses against mind magic. -[x] Ask if they're interested in coming along.
The current votes don't actually explicitly invite the Pleiades to join our Tokyo field trip if they're interested. (Given Hijiri's still on the loose and attacked last time they were weakened due to being out of town, note that they might not be interested.) Plus, more Mami and Kazumi interaction can only be a good thing.
[X] Enchantment topics: [x] Ask Mami for advice on how to progress everyone's training. She's the most experienced.
[x] As a whole group, focus on potential defensive options.
[x] Potentially:
-[x] Suggest Sayaka try copying enchantments.
-[X] Offer to share your enchantment booster.
-[X] Check if emotionally charged magic affects enchantments made with it.
--[X] Try making emotion-enchanted grief.
-[X] Try recycling enchanted grief.
Mostly this was just streamlining Phonixian's agenda, but I think it's worth explicitly letting Mami set the curriculum. She's by far the most skilled enchanter available, so we should be reaching out for her guidance.
[X] Ask Hitomi about inviting Homura to the Shizukidinner.
[X] Sanitized summary of Tokyo for everyone. -[X] Give Sayaka the floor to offer her own insights too, since she's worked with Madoka and Hitomi in politics before.
-[X] Tell eveyone you'll write a more detailed account later to share
--[X] Run it by Homu before actually sharing it with Madoka.
Sayaka was also in Tokyo, and is going to be far more familiar with Madoka and Hitomi's approach when they're in "business mode". It makes sense to let her handle sharing a good chunk of the information.
[X] Mention Oriko's new powers. Same routine as earlier, explain wish magic and its relationship to a girl's thinking, but take a slightly more emotional/romantic viewpoint so it plays better to Sayaka and Madoka.
-[x] Fill Hitomi in on past decisions about Oriko and Kirika and address any concerns she brings up. She's part of that whole mess too after all.
-[x] Prompt Homura to add her own input as appropriate moments come up for it.
-[x] Quickly point out to Homura that you're taking a different approach, so she knows to pay attention so she can get to know her friends better.
[X] Ask everyone besides Hitomi if they'll be staying for dinner, and ask Homura to stay afterwards.
