..... Uh. I kinda thought that yes, we would devise a system Kyubey would be willing to accept, for one reason or another.

:thonk:
It would be more heroic (and favorable for H. Sapiens of all stripes) if we craft a situation in which Kyuubey has no choice other than to accept, due to it's own nature. "I can resist anything, except temptation." The Madowish in canon paints it as a short-horizon (paperclip) optimizer. Thus, it's will can be hacked.

If we look at our own tactical use of information, it must be clear that Privacy has become a resource. We need to get Privacy copied more, and make enchantment stand-alone Privacy for those who can't cast it. We must not use it all the time, and maybe we don't want to sour Sayaka's mood right ATM by talking about Oriko. We can do this right after IMHO.
We need to use Privacy any time we like, and a few extra false occasions as well. Privacy must become less expensive, because it is a good weapon we want to use.

We could try to use the privacy sphere as part of the enchantment routine? Maybe get Sayaka to try to copy?

Personally, I think Homura is hiding something. Not out of distrusting us, mind. Rather, probably because she fears a reaction out of us, especially NOW given how close we have become as friends. We've become almost as dear to her as Madoka by how much we've pushed through her barriers. Re-reading way back early on in the Quest (I do in fact skim through certain sections now and then... something stuck out to me as important.



Have we ever seriously followed up on this, or did we take Homura's word at face value? Yes, she said she never saw us during the last loop... but we're missing a span of 12 days between the start of our loop and suddenly waking up dying in an alley conveniently where Madoka, Sayaka, and Mami found us.

Firn drew our attention to it years ago.



We really need to find out what happened during those 12 days we're missing information from.

Secondly, did we ever establish why Oriko would say she'd see us again even if she were to die?
Expanded possibility would indicate that we existed, and used to be someone else entirely. Given our emotional progress with Homura, I don't think we could have done similar things before, such as a prior loop as the Sabrina we are now. I'm taking her reactions as honest.
Perhaps our physical features were recognizable in the form of our Witch last loop? This time we come back as a re-skin, overlayed with the history of Witch status, but an entirely different person is inside.
Homura was able to accept whatever is was, if it is canon it would not bother me as Sabrina.
 
I'm of the opinion that fighting or negotiating with the Incubators is about as useful as commanding your legions to make war on Neptune by going down to the beach and stabbing their swords at the surf. Or, to be more blunt, they're part of the fundamental backdrop of the setting, rather than an agent we can meaningfully manipulate or harm. Since the scope of the quest is fundamentally about the individual struggles, rather than grand cosmic battles against platonic ideals. Because again:


The "Hard Girl Making Hard Choices" thing would be to ignore all the 'little people' and aim for the grandest scope of effect possible. And entirely missing the point of the quest.
Godwinson, I'm not talking about some grand strategy to reformat the universe here. Just whether we can stop Kyuubey from going to certain means instead of contracting Madoka above all other costs.

And I'll note that we have never really looked into whether Kyuubey is as subtly changed by the wish that everything could be fixed as everything else seems to be. We haven't ever asked what other purpose he might have had that the wish-to-live omake alluded to, that made him say "we lost" even as the incubators had definitively won the fight against entropy.

--------------------------

Okay, I don't trust myself right now. I remember far too keenly last time we had the Oriko discussion come up in the midst of an enchantment session and I still have the mental scars.


They're a very large part of why I've been acting the way I have, even.

But I don't trust myself and certainly not with so little spare wordcount, So I'm just going to take this potential mess... and...


...Trust that we're not going to get through the afternoon in a single update, so we can put some actual dedicated focus into it all when the time comes.


So I'm just going to cut that bit and, since it was raised, let's be grief-efficient.

Because if enchantment/trance time is coming up as a limiting cost to how much we can do? Then we should see if we can abuse a potential way we've found around it.

[X] In whatever order makes sense:
[x] Brainmail the Pleiades. Topics:
-[x] Current events. How are things? The situation in Tokyo.
-[x] Defenses against mind magic.
[X] Enchantment topics:
-[x] Suggestion for Sayaka: Copying enchantments, enchantments that copy other powers?
-[X] Generally focus on protective enchantments.
-[x] Try to make a tracking enchantment using the emotions you made your wings from.
-[X] Make emotion-enchanted grief and use it to make and share an enchantment booster for rapid prototyping.
--[X] Try to recycle the enchanted grief from the booster after you're done with it, by poking it out of the edge of your range and spinning it.

[X] Ask Hitomi about inviting Homura to the Shizukidinner.
[X] Sanitized summary of Tokyo for everyone
-[X] Light on details; you'll write the details up later so you don't mess up while extemporizing (and so you can run it past Homura first).
[X] Ask everyone besides Hitomi if they'll be staying for dinner.
-[X] Include copious leftovers for Homura.



[X] Leave the Oriko discussion for later, but before Hitomi needs to leave.


So it occurs to me that we've talked about Oriko and Kirika on IRC in the past, but we haven't asked if miss "hangs out in a tree awake all night" (because she sleeps in timestop) would be interested in such a thing so she can reach out while she's otherwise just being a bodyguard. Or miss "I have as many bodies as I want!" for that matter.

(Especially as Homura would have a better idea of what she's doing than we would.)

A la: [] Ask Homura (and Sayaka?) she'd like the meguca IRCs sometime if she'd like to it might help her recruit folks with her phone.

Can anyone see a reason we can't talk about the matter now?
 
If it starts going around snitching about people's powers it will lose any and all goodwill it has ever built up with any magical girl on the entire fucking planet.

Kyubey has already "gone around snitching about people's powers" in this quest.

I think that if feeding information about us to hostile groups is something it could easily do in addition to everything else it does.
 
Honestly, the Incubator Exclusion Field is and remains a good idea-- the only reason the Pleiades were hoist by their own petard was because of an accidental inability to see their own lack of cleansing (because of Jyuubey being a flawed construct), and we have that shit on lock. Perhaps we should only have it exclude Kyuubey rather than making everyone forget about it, though? Anyway, while we're brainmailing the Saints, we should absolutely be checking in with Niko and her projects; it's science time right now anyway, and she's pretty much our contact for all of our SCIENCE-related solutions.
 
I'm of the opinion that fighting or negotiating with the Incubators is about as useful as commanding your legions to make war on Neptune by going down to the beach and stabbing their swords at the surf. Or, to be more blunt, they're part of the fundamental backdrop of the setting, rather than an agent we can meaningfully manipulate or harm. Since the scope of the quest is fundamentally about the individual struggles, rather than grand cosmic battles against platonic ideals. Because again:










The "Hard Girl Making Hard Choices" thing would be to ignore all the 'little people' and aim for the grandest scope of effect possible. And entirely missing the point of the quest.

"It's Always About the People, Isn't It?"

And also: "Kyubey isn't a people."
 
If we came from Oriko's wish, what's up with our bizarre potential? Madoka's wish explains it far better than Oriko's would.
For that matter, why would Oriko's wish to know the meaning to her life require the creation of another person?

On the topic of the delay, I suspect the delay was somehow required for everything to be fixable. Perhaps Homura's early anti-Kyubey activities would've been disrupted by an earlier arrival. Perhaps there was some other event that needed to occur a specific way that we would've disturbed. Perhaps we didn't need the entire loop to fix the immediate issue of Walpurgisnacht.

Stuff to ask Homura about, I suppose.
From a more meta perspective, it's also probably just that if we had started out at the beginning of cannon we would have had 3 days before Oriko would have even contracted. Since we knew she would be the main antagonist, we would almost certainly have gone and either befriended her or given her a reason for her life long before she would have contracted.

Sabrina: "Heyyyyyyy! Oriko, I found you a reason for your existence!" *drags Kirika into the Mikuni mansion*
Oriko: "Wtf, who are you? Who is this?"
Kirika: *is confused at why she's being kidnapped by a weird foreigner*
Firn: *throws away a huge folder of expected plot points*
 
Sabrina: "Heyyyyyyy! Oriko, I found you a reason for your existence!" *drags Kirika into the Mikuni mansion*
Oriko: "Wtf, who are you? Who is this?"
Kirika: *is confused at why she's being kidnapped by a weird foreigner*

"Your future husbando, of course!"

"I am female!"

"Yeah, but you absolutely rock a tuxedo!"

"I do?!"

"She does?"

*Suddenly looks very interested*

"I'll leave it to you then! And remember, kids: don't eat the candy offered to you by strangers and don't make contracts with extraterrestrial beings of unknown origins!"

*Exit stage left*

Yeah, I can see that.
 
Kyubey has already "gone around snitching about people's powers" in this quest.

I think that if feeding information about us to hostile groups is something it could easily do in addition to everything else it does.

The best cure is a proper PR campaign, wrapped around a core mission of "Bring Iowa to justice." Accomplishing that will make more of the hard cases think thrice. Of course it wants to solve us away using a few cheap tricks, but once we make the tricks way more expensive it will force the white death into a rare and unfamiliar game.

Honestly, the Incubator Exclusion Field is and remains a good idea
This is close to what I would prefer, I think that we would benefit from their experience by limiting the process in certain ways, particularly by reducing the scope to certain individuals. As a moral constraint, it should also be self-determined. Just imagine the "not having an emotional response" it will display when it next appears before Madoka, and has no prior warning that it has been set to "mute." Or walks up to Mami, says something designed to make her despair, to her complete lack of acknowledgement. Or visibility.
As just one component of a strategy, it's very appealing.
Because the very next thing that happens gives us a further uptick of "that won't be necessary?"
If we came from Oriko's wish, what's up with our bizarre potential? Madoka's wish explains it far better than Oriko's would.
For that matter, why would Oriko's wish to know the meaning to her life require the creation of another person?

On the topic of the delay, I suspect the delay was somehow required for everything to be fixable. Perhaps Homura's early anti-Kyubey activities would've been disrupted by an earlier arrival. Perhaps there was some other event that needed to occur a specific way that we would've disturbed. Perhaps we didn't need the entire loop to fix the immediate issue of Walpurgisnacht.

Stuff to ask Homura about, I suppose.
Homura being the exact issue that Oriko was required to fix. How much more of our time IC would be required to get the same relationship with Homura in a world where Oriko is not an issue? Connecting to Homura might have required normal befriending otherwise. A deep friendship with her now is not as easy as it used to be. If IRL mode was enforced, more than our five-week power source is rated for?
Much as we predict that Sayaka will be key at points, but without Feathers her powers and worldview would all be muggle. Will she be able to do all the things that change the world with us, even if those things are ultimately "just" talking, listening and using her emotions, without standing on the stage with the others as a Magical Girl? It seems to be a situation of "just so."

I have wondered if the Fixability wish may have adjusted the mind of every Potential ever, just a small bit when required. Instead of Wishing her intent in postfix, Madoka did this in prefix notation.
 
If we are present. Mami and Sayaka can't do it, and it sounds like they wouldn't even be able to stabilize things until we got there.

Teleportation and smart phones are both tools we have at our disposal. Having informed people around her does help, because it lets us respond. I'd thought this was clear enough that it didn't require iteration; apologies.

On that note, if she were to move into our guest room, I think you're underestimating the results of that... But that's not a solid plan yet.
 
Last edited:
really for kyubey i have two different methods of action
the first one is that we simply lock him out of the loop, be it the exclusion field or something else that just keeps him out of mitakihara. the benefits of this one is depriving him of information, locking him out of manipulating us, and driving him into a corner where it has to negotiate with us instead of looking at us as cattle it doesn't need to treat as equals
the other, which honestly id prefer, is to try talking to it, treat it as a person and try to convince it to leave us alone, hopefully "infecting" it with the "scourge" of emotions and empathy. of course this might not be feasible seeing as it is an intergalactic eldritch horror so we might not be able to communicate in a meaningful way. but i am thinking that it was also affected by madokas wish that everything is fixable
 
really for kyubey i have two different methods of action
the first one is that we simply lock him out of the loop, be it the exclusion field or something else that just keeps him out of mitakihara. the benefits of this one is depriving him of information, locking him out of manipulating us, and driving him into a corner where it has to negotiate with us instead of looking at us as cattle it doesn't need to treat as equals
the other, which honestly id prefer, is to try talking to it, treat it as a person and try to convince it to leave us alone, hopefully "infecting" it with the "scourge" of emotions and empathy. of course this might not be feasible seeing as it is an intergalactic eldritch horror so we might not be able to communicate in a meaningful way. but i am thinking that it was also affected by madokas wish that everything is fixable
Didn't he try to get us to be more stealthy by linking us up with another meguca? Right before the whole butterfly camo we use?
 
Honestly, the Incubator Exclusion Field is and remains a good idea-- the only reason the Pleiades were hoist by their own petard was because of an accidental inability to see their own lack of cleansing (because of Jyuubey being a flawed construct), and we have that shit on lock. Perhaps we should only have it exclude Kyuubey rather than making everyone forget about it, though? Anyway, while we're brainmailing the Saints, we should absolutely be checking in with Niko and her projects; it's science time right now anyway, and she's pretty much our contact for all of our SCIENCE-related solutions.

-[] FUCK KYUBEY. EXCLUSION FIELD.

An exclusion field...

I mean, let's put this on the table. A mind-alteration field as per canon Asunaro is a godawful idea by virtue of being too damn creepy -- it falls under the "don't do villain things" rule. It might also constitute shooting ourselves in the foot -- I think it might end up obviating any apparent justification for not using telepathy, since nobody would remember QB. I can only imagine how that might come back to bite us.

But, well, what about just keeping QB out?

It causes some minor issues -- stuff like QB going around telling everyone that there's this city it can't get into so it can't contract people to fight witches -- but...

If the tradeoff is preventing the metabomb... That would definitely be more, much more than worth it...

...

Honestly?

I think the biggest problem with this idea is implementing it in a way that doesn't cause Kyubey to metabomb Homura.

I mean, consider his perspective. He finds out he isn't going to be able to metabomb Homura later on because we're working on a QB exclusion field... he'd just do it immediately.

So to be honest... I think it would be an incredibly helpful weapon; I think the main drawback would be that we'd have to completely avoid any suspicion up until the instant it activates. That's... I don't know if that's really feasible. Hm.

Any thoughts @Vebyast? If it were possible to accomplish it...
 
An exclusion field...

I mean, let's put this on the table. A mind-alteration field as per canon Asunaro is a godawful idea by virtue of being too damn creepy -- it falls under the "don't do villain things" rule. It might also constitute shooting ourselves in the foot -- I think it might end up obviating any apparent justification for not using telepathy, since nobody would remember QB. I can only imagine how that might come back to bite us.

But, well, what about just keeping QB out?

It causes some minor issues -- stuff like QB going around telling everyone that there's this city it can't get into so it can't contract people to fight witches -- but...

If the tradeoff is preventing the metabomb... That would definitely be more, much more than worth it...

...

Honestly?

I think the biggest problem with this idea is implementing it in a way that doesn't cause Kyubey to metabomb Homura.

I mean, consider his perspective. He finds out he isn't going to be able to metabomb Homura later on because we're working on a QB exclusion field... he'd just do it immediately.

So to be honest... I think it would be an incredibly helpful weapon; I think the main drawback would be that we'd have to completely avoid any suspicion up until the instant it activates. That's... I don't know if that's really feasible. Hm.

Any thoughts @Vebyast? If it were possible to accomplish it...
What level of OpSec has Niko been keeping? She's already told us about Jyubey being close to completion, and I'm pretty sure that she mentioned the Kyubey denial field too. It's another reason to link up with her and get magictech going-- Science generally doesn't solve our broad quest goals, because they're all social and psychological (it's about the people), but it does make our lives substantially easier by letting us do more work with less time and resources as more things try to pile up on our plate. We really need to be proactive about delegating more, too, which is why I'm glad we're getting the Dokes on for political analysis.

As for the telepathy element, I'm pretty sure that Jyubey solves this: Being reconstructed from a Kyubey drone body, it had all of Kyubey's abilities except for granting wishes (which was deliberately disabled) and cleansing soul gems (which wasn't one of Kyubey's abilities in the first place, as Kyubey reminds the Saints after the barrier collapses). It should serve as both telepathy operator and grief disposal unit just fine (though we may need more than one depending on an individual QB drone's range). All that leaves is Oriko's warning about Jyubey being an enemy, which was both really nebulous and something that doesn't really make sense in context.
 
I suddenly have the image of future O&K setting up their past selves.

.... *looks up from 'How to Teach Relativity to Your Dog'*

..I don't think we're allowed to do that.

Even Homura's time travel is into different dimensions rather than the same actual timeline. Or something - I mean the potential bomb being a thing means the previous universes/timelines still exist.


Huh wait does this mean Homura could end up jumping into a Timeline/world/worldline thats PMMM crossed with <INSERT IP HERE>
 
.... *looks up from 'How to Teach Relativity to Your Dog'*

..I don't think we're allowed to do that.

Even Homura's time travel is into different dimensions rather than the same actual timeline. Or something - I mean the potential bomb being a thing means the previous universes/timelines still exist.


Huh wait does this mean Homura could end up jumping into a Timeline/world/worldline thats PMMM crossed with <INSERT IP HERE>

Counterpoint on timelines: Magia Record, a certain French Knight. A couple of meguca use dream time travel to interact with Jeanne d'Arc. It's explained that if she does witch, the temporal travelers will be wiped from reality because their future no longer exists. Granted, this is all Kamihama bullshit, but single-timeline time travel is possible in PMMM.
 
Counterpoint on timelines: Magia Record, a certain French Knight. A couple of meguca use dream time travel to interact with Jeanne d'Arc. It's explained that if she does witch, the temporal travelers will be wiped from reality because their future no longer exists. Granted, this is all Kamihama bullshit, but single-timeline time travel is possible in PMMM.

This is kind of a grossly different situation, for all sorts of reasons, and that story is probably not canon even within the bounds of Magireco, because some of its details are contradictingly impossible.
 
Back
Top