How would contacting/befriending Dedolere work, though? I imagine a witch is a meguca's deepest, darkest self, wreathed in despair and wracked with madness. That could be different for us, though. Is Dedolere a separate entity from Sabrina? An aspect of her, or the inverse? Both at once?
 
...Oh my god befriending Dedolere is how we overcome our range limit isn't it.
we're just well on our way to recreating the kamihama doppel system aren't we?
How would contacting/befriending Dedolere work, though? I imagine a witch is a meguca's deepest, darkest self, wreathed in despair and wracked with madness. That could be different for us, though. Is Dedolere a separate entity from Sabrina? An aspect of her, or the inverse? Both at once?
I've always saw witches as being a magical girls distilled dark side, all the parts of people that they try to ignore or put aside or see in a negative light distilled and amplified
so something tells me that dedolore would likely be full gilgamesh, wanting to help people but not really knowing how and not caring about that persons desires or what they actually want
basicaly all of our flaws and emotional baggage turned up to eleven with all our positive traits boiled off
 
not really knowing how and not caring about that persons desires or what they actually want
basicaly all of our flaws and emotional baggage turned up to eleven with all our positive traits boiled off

Sabrina in many ways both is and isn't this thread. She is a quest created character.

Our witch would be a dark reflection of that. A quest gone bad if you will. There are two ways I could see that going. The first would be what you described a ruthless manipulator only caring about the few we have an emotional connection too while breaking those same few in the process because that connection is ultimately possessive and selfish.

The second would be a cacophony of dissenting voices. Dedolere in an endless argument with herself tearing the universe (thread) apart in the process until there isn't anything left and everything just ends.
 
Man, I've been rereading PMAS, and it's just increasingly obvious that Feathers is Dedolere. Because if Sabrina's actions could break Oriko's visions of a scene, then Sabrina witching out would surely cause that -- Oriko was just reversing cause and effect. It wasn't that Feathers was killing Sabrina's friends, it's that in those futures, Sabrina's friends died and Dedolere resulted.

The clearest thing we can point at as being an Act of Feathers was to arrange for Sayaka to be attacked (and thus feel helpless and contract), while Sabrina was inside her own barrier. An act that very much so seems like someone who is trying to help, but has forgotten how to help without breaking people. Everything else besides that? Whispers that only Sabrina can hear, whispers that line up with being Dedolere, because the times the voice couldn't find Sabrina were times she was unburdened.

None of this is exactly new, but you know what? We had been talking about diplomacy and therapy with a witch? Let's start with the witch who has been contacting us, the one who we can't just defeat with more biggatons, the witch who is most likely to be able to hurt the people Sabrina cares about, and in so doing, hatch. Firn likes to comment about how it's always about the people, but we've always taken that as being about everyone around us. Sabrina is a people too ( :p ), and thus so is Dedolere. (Hell, it's Dedolere's name on Sabrina's soul gem in ring form)
I'll point out here, that there are proposed tests to tell exactly where the feather came from for certain, or at least certain enough to give us some much needed definite negatives. I'd honestly been itching to do them today but copious meetings, and fallout, got in the way.

EDIT: Ah, because I forgot:
I think it's a bit foolish to assume that the Nyantokanyaru IRC is exclusive to Kagoshima, especially as Nadia specifically noted that IRCs are frequently set up by groups who split up and wanted to keep in touch.
 
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I'd like to point out that it's an interesting selection of words there. An "ontological paradox" is a similiar type of paradox as the "bootstrap paradox", which are both a result of a stable time loop.

I've rewritten paragraphs about what exactly the bootstrap paradox might be and if its us, or how we were made, but I'm scrapping those because the more prevalent problem would be this: A bootstrap paradox is the result of a stable time loop. Homura is the only time traveler we are aware of, however while she uses time loops, they aren't stable time loops. She's resetting time each time she returns to the hospital, and while she keeps whats in her shield nothing else is affected(except the times where for example kyijibo playing a guitar hints that it's multiverse theory but lets not get into that especially since that also wouldn't allow a closed time loop) which means it's impossible for her to create a bootstrap paradox.

The only possible exception to this is Madoka's potential, which increases as Homura loops. If this is the bootstrap so to speak, it means that Dedolere is an ontological threat because Sabrina was created by Madokami/a Madokami level wish. However it could be argued that while Madoka's potential increased in the loops, it wasn't her previous potential carrying over into the next loop, but Madoka's increased worth to the world as Homura refused to let it continue, in which case something else caused the whatever the loop is, meaning we're missing an important piece of the puzzle.


Alternatively I completely misinterpreted the usage of bootstrap as a timetravel refrence when it just meant as a reference to bootstrapping in computing. Or a hasty patchjob although I might be mixing up metaphors with that one. I dunno, I kinda lost the plot of this post around the 30 minute mark.
In this case it's most likely back to the more general phrase – "to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps" – or other derivations; for example, if the "bootstrap" in Dedolere's case is to Banach-Tarski from negligible to arbitrarily-large amounts of Grief near-instantly... well, I'm not sure how it would be "hilarious" or how that particularly produces an ontological threat, but it fits "bootstrap" at least.
 
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Well at the very least it exists, don't know know if Firn registered it or one of you beat me.

I'll consider sending an email, might not use my main account though...

Why email her when you can just post here and have it show up in her brain?

Maybe Firn will send back secrets? New Invisitext replacement!
 
We actually have some evidence of how a "Pre-Hatched" Witch would be like and how they would interact towards their respective Magical Girl. Primarily... from the evidence we have (Candeloro for Mami, and Homulilly for Homura)... they act as the final temptation to turning Witch. With Homura, its more subtle due to the nature of the events happening in there (what with it all taking place within her Soul Gem and how the line between her and her Witch is more than a little blurred. Come to think of it... meeting "Ai" within Wraith Arc could have actually been Homura meeting Homulilly then... hrmmm...), but in Different Story, we see what happens quite plainly and clearly:



Point being, while I am not against the idea of making contact with Dedolere, and in fact could reap massive dividends... there is an inherent risk to making contact with the very thing trying to ensure its creation. As Rebellion showed with the fully formed Homulilly, they are the manifestations of every single curse and despair-filled thought accumulated and inflicted back onto the soul of the Magical Girl (seen via Homura reliving her worst memory). If we talk to Dedolere, we have to approach it as carefully as we would talking to Kyubey... because we could run the very real risk of accumulating Grief rapidly and might have a repeat of the Familiar episode.
 
We actually have some evidence of how a "Pre-Hatched" Witch would be like and how they would interact towards their respective Magical Girl. Primarily... from the evidence we have (Candeloro for Mami, and Homulilly for Homura)... they act as the final temptation to turning Witch. With Homura, its more subtle due to the nature of the events happening in there (what with it all taking place within her Soul Gem and how the line between her and her Witch is more than a little blurred. Come to think of it... meeting "Ai" within Wraith Arc could have actually been Homura meeting Homulilly then... hrmmm...), but in Different Story, we see what happens quite plainly and clearly:



Point being, while I am not against the idea of making contact with Dedolere, and in fact could reap massive dividends... there is an inherent risk to making contact with the very thing trying to ensure its creation. As Rebellion showed with the fully formed Homulilly, they are the manifestations of every single curse and despair-filled thought accumulated and inflicted back onto the soul of the Magical Girl (seen via Homura reliving her worst memory). If we talk to Dedolere, we have to approach it as carefully as we would talking to Kyubey... because we could run the very real risk of accumulating Grief rapidly and might have a repeat of the Familiar episode.

I uh, don't recall Homura ever speaking to Homulilly (Ai is not her in any way, but an entirely different part of Homura), but one of the Oriko mangas had her meet what seems to be her Witch in a similar manner to Mami, here.
 
Ok I've sent Sabrina an email now. From the second gmail account that is set to a JP location that I used to sign up for Magia Record so it's extra authentic. :V



(Not my real name)
 
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In this case it's most likely back to the more general phrase – "to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps" – or other derivations; for example, if the "bootstrap" in Dedolere's case is to Banach-Tarsky from negligible to arbitrarily-large amounts of Grief near-instantly... well, I'm not sure how it would be "hilarious" or how that particularly produces an ontological threat, but it fits "bootstrap" at least.

Generate exponentially increasing amounts of Grief by way of Banach-Tarski or similar, assign it true physical mass if it doesn't have it already, and allow it to collapse into a black hole with an exponentially increasing event horizon that drags the entire universe into your control radius. :V
 
Wait, if we can break the fourth wall, by sending e-mails...

That's one part of Sabrina's mindscape (the thread) communicating with another part (Sabrina the person). Maybe we could communicate with another another part- IE, Dedolere- with this method?
 
That seems to imply that Mami could avoid witching just by believing in Sabrina hard enough.

it would delay it, that's for sure. The thing about the grief spiral is that they go faster and faster because they self-reinforce. Grief causes negative thoughts causes grief.

But even if you keep a totally hopeful mindset, the grief will eventually drag you kicking and screaming into Witchhood. Ask Madoka.
 
...Oh my god befriending Dedolere is how we overcome our range limit isn't it.
I don't know about overcoming range limitations, that might require some other additional insight. But I do know that helping Dedolere is something that Sabrina ought to be doing anyway, as part of her wish, part of her nature. And if Dedolere is Feathers, then this will be a pro-active stance to addressing one of our two main opponents (Feathers, Kyuubey).
 
I don't know about overcoming range limitations, that might require some other additional insight. But I do know that helping Dedolere is something that Sabrina ought to be doing anyway, as part of her wish, part of her nature. And if Dedolere is Feathers, then this will be a pro-active stance to addressing one of our two main opponents (Feathers, Kyuubey).

Agreed. I for one am in favor of permanent Chibi-brina-as-Dedolere-vessel when we pull it off.

It'll be like that one fanfic about everyone getting their own Wish as a cute familiar but better.
 
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