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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Firnagzen said:
"Pretty sure the world would end if she did," Sayaka says
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Drat. Gotta add it to the planner?

Repeating a few posts about our Homura time. What else do we try to prepare now?

Given our plans for Fukushima and Anri tomorrow morning, I want to see if we can make an attempt to try analyzing soul gems again, with what we've learned since we last tried (Namely enchanting grief, and attempting communication rather than analysis,) and part of that is asking Homura to spot for us when we try, in case of trouble.



Item 1: The Tokyo Meeting and personal suspicions.
Item 2: Sayaka's growing awareness of Homura's protectiveness of Madoka.
Item 3: Oriko losing Precognizance in exchange for Clairvoyance.
Item 4: Comparing the variables that have appeared in this timeline in comparison to normal.

Discuss plans for presence of hostiles within Mitakihara
- Detection upgrades?
- Spreading correct alarm and information?
- Soujous
- Spies
- Others?
-- Evacuation drills,
-- Headcount and sound off drills (because this is a basic groups safety function, social animals have it.)
-- Optimize Sayaka's use of animal agents with clever human behaviors from residents?
- Progress on property for Yuki?

Ask her desired outcomes with Tokyo outreach?

Discuss need for mental defenses
- Subtle attacks, like Tokyo memory manipulation
- Large deviations, like Witch feedback or Psi combat
- Enchantment for distributing this for others?
- Will Sayaka be able to focus anti-magic to do this?
- Train Sayaka in her memory powers?

Group date to Kagoshima? Take everyone in two cars. We need to recruit Mako, and this should be way safer than Tokyo. It isn't like she's Accelerator, right? A good way to let everyone in at the shallow end of the diplomacy pool.
 
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Man, I've been rereading PMAS, and it's just increasingly obvious that Feathers is Dedolere. Because if Sabrina's actions could break Oriko's visions of a scene, then Sabrina witching out would surely cause that -- Oriko was just reversing cause and effect. It wasn't that Feathers was killing Sabrina's friends, it's that in those futures, Sabrina's friends died and Dedolere resulted.

The clearest thing we can point at as being an Act of Feathers was to arrange for Sayaka to be attacked (and thus feel helpless and contract), while Sabrina was inside her own barrier. An act that very much so seems like someone who is trying to help, but has forgotten how to help without breaking people. Everything else besides that? Whispers that only Sabrina can hear, whispers that line up with being Dedolere, because the times the voice couldn't find Sabrina were times she was unburdened.

None of this is exactly new, but you know what? We had been talking about diplomacy and therapy with a witch? Let's start with the witch who has been contacting us, the one who we can't just defeat with more biggatons, the witch who is most likely to be able to hurt the people Sabrina cares about, and in so doing, hatch. Firn likes to comment about how it's always about the people, but we've always taken that as being about everyone around us. Sabrina is a people too ( :p ), and thus so is Dedolere. (Hell, it's Dedolere's name on Sabrina's soul gem in ring form)
 
Firnagzen said:
"Sono Mako, I suspect," Homura murmurs, frowning. "Kagoshima. Her magic lets her redirect energy and magic."
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Iiiinteresting. I updated the spreadsheet, and on the wiki I'll fold the "two" groups into one and give them their own dedicated pages later today.

It's pretty serendipitous that we got in touch this way, since we wanted to contact them eventually anyhow to help deal with Walpurgisnacht.

When we ask Fukushima to share their contact book tomorrow, they'll presumably have something to say about Kagoshima as well, since they also seem to be mercenaries.

Btw, we're currently planning to do a lot of things in Fukushima tomorrow, so here's a rough rundown so we don't forget:

• Meet up with Yuki, and let her know the specifics of our Clear Seed progress. As the one who has to handle Airi, it's partially her decision how much is safe to share - does she want Airi to have Yuuri's Clear Seed to pump hope into, for example?

• Hand over Rionna.

• Get Yuki's address book, and identify the key areas we should be focusing on to spread our influence.

• Ask Yuki about the other groups in Fukushima, and for their contact info.

• Ask for Yuki's advice on Tokyo in general, and Chiyoda in particular. Share our memory magic suspicions.

• Actually have the discussion with Airi. This will probably be frustrating, but we have to suck it up and do our best.

• Potentially with Yuki's help as a reference, contact the other Fukushima groups and offer them Clear Seeds.

• Go around making a bunch of Clear Seeds.
 
Godwinson said:
Man, I've been rereading PMAS, and it's just increasingly obvious that Feathers is Dedolere. Because if Sabrina's actions could break Oriko's visions of a scene, then Sabrina witching out would surely cause that -- Oriko was just reversing cause and effect. It wasn't that Feathers was killing Sabrina's friends, it's that in those futures, Sabrina's friends died and Dedolere resulted.

The clearest thing we can point at as being an Act of Feathers was to arrange for Sayaka to be attacked (and thus feel helpless and contract), while Sabrina was inside her own barrier. An act that very much so seems like someone who is trying to help, but has forgotten how to help without breaking people. Everything else besides that? Whispers that only Sabrina can hear, whispers that line up with being Dedolere, because the times the voice couldn't find Sabrina were times she was unburdened.

None of this is exactly new, but you know what? We had been talking about diplomacy and therapy with a witch? Let's start with the witch who has been contacting us, the one who we can't just defeat with more biggatons, the witch who is most likely to be able to hurt the people Sabrina cares about, and in so doing, hatch. Firn likes to comment about how it's always about the people, but we've always taken that as being about everyone around us. Sabrina is a people too ( :p ), and thus so is Dedolere. (Hell, it's Dedolere's name on Sabrina's soul gem in ring form)
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It's been a while since I got to bust this out.
 
Firnagzen said:
It's been a while since I got to bust this out.
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You know, considering this statement?
Firnagzen said:
Incidentally, just for your edification -Dedolere is an ontological threat, thanks to the rather hilarious bootstrap process involved. Other beings in PMMM on the same weight class: Ultimate Kriemheld Gretchen, Madokami, Akuma Homura.

And protip; I won't bad end the Quest over something so trivial as experimenting on a Witch. Only if I manage to drive the thread to despair.

But if I do, I will have a considerable amount of fun writing said bad end.
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I'm definitely of the view that we should attempt to talk to Dedolere.

...preferably with a clear-seed close at hand, and either Kirika as a spotter, or a spotter with an antimagic gadget that works on Sabrina. Just in case.
 
Godwinson said:
Man, I've been rereading PMAS, and it's just increasingly obvious that Feathers is Dedolere. Because if Sabrina's actions could break Oriko's visions of a scene, then Sabrina witching out would surely cause that -- Oriko was just reversing cause and effect. It wasn't that Feathers was killing Sabrina's friends, it's that in those futures, Sabrina's friends died and Dedolere resulted.

The clearest thing we can point at as being an Act of Feathers was to arrange for Sayaka to be attacked (and thus feel helpless and contract), while Sabrina was inside her own barrier. An act that very much so seems like someone who is trying to help, but has forgotten how to help without breaking people. Everything else besides that? Whispers that only Sabrina can hear, whispers that line up with being Dedolere, because the times the voice couldn't find Sabrina were times she was unburdened.

None of this is exactly new, but you know what? We had been talking about diplomacy and therapy with a witch? Let's start with the witch who has been contacting us, the one who we can't just defeat with more biggatons, the witch who is most likely to be able to hurt the people Sabrina cares about, and in so doing, hatch. Firn likes to comment about how it's always about the people, but we've always taken that as being about everyone around us. Sabrina is a people too ( :p ), and thus so is Dedolere. (Hell, it's Dedolere's name on Sabrina's soul gem in ring form)
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This will be the big time, serious use of our Chibi? I would wonder about literally negotiating with our own Witch, yet this is trivial for the people who aren't us. If we found a way to connect another witch to an interface body, that would pave the way to let them have access to our Witch. It might be a considerable time until we can find a way to have both of us concious in the same universe at the same time - when we act, Feathers tends not to.

The manipulation of Hope is a way to make this productive. Witches are very much enamored of Hope? So if we train everyone to manifest their own Hope, we can have the group practice exchanging Hope. Let's say we get everyone a bit of skill at this? That will make them able to 'tame' our Witch and talk to her. Bribery works wonders on feral kids. A minute or two every few days, not sure how long it takes, but Delodere can speak in sentences, this isn't outside possibility. It might also qualify as a much deeper relationship? "Meet my dark side. She likes cookies.
 
Godwinson said:
When we hand over Rionna, we need to make sure that they're aware of how her shades work, so that they can properly secure the place she's kept. Seriously, we lucked the fuck out with the privacy field.
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We already discussed Rionna's powers in detail with Yuki earlier. That said, no reason not to be cautious.

As a side note, with hundreds of thousands of Grief Seeds worth of cleansing at her disposal, I'm looking forward to seeing what Yuki's done with her place. That tower has got to be an absolutely ridiculous deathtrap at this point.
 
So our Enchanting practice for Sabrina can go to several useful paths today?

Privacy device for others? (easier? Mami can copy our original?)

Control enchantment that let another person use the enchantment? And Forbids a different person?
- Once this works, we can let other people remote into a Grief chibi...
which brings us really close to hooking one up to a Witch?

Control Enchantment that manages multiple enchantments already set by others?
Because, PLC?

Combining Control with other magic, to form a durable remote Magical Girl sensor?
 
We'll probably timestop and talk to Homu first. I'd like to raise the topic of involving Madoka and Hitomi in the Tokyo politics planning with her, and if she gives approval, we'll probably spend the enchantment session talking about the approach to Tokyo in the background.
 
Redshirt Army said:
We already discussed Rionna's powers in detail with Yuki earlier. That said, no reason not to be cautious.

As a side note, with hundreds of thousands of Grief Seeds worth of cleansing at her disposal, I'm looking forward to seeing what Yuki's done with her place. That tower has got to be an absolutely ridiculous deathtrap at this point.
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Let's keep her away from the Kayneth point.

Redshirt Army said:
... I'd like to raise the topic of involving Madoka and Hitomi in the Tokyo politics planning with her, ...
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Full speed ahead, we should map out the discussion for Homura. Her approach to Madoka needs to be more responsive, and whether the ultimate result is yes or no, we need to get that thinking more correct now.

All effort to modeling Madoka's involvement with Homura?
 
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Homura is better off having a chance to prepare ahead. News flash.

So I guess our first task is to get her to imagine, and refine that imagination, in regards to Madoka's response. When we talk about Tokyo, what will Madoka think? Will she say that? If Sabrina or Homura say a particular course of action, what response will Madoka shift to? Have her work it out.

I think trying to make it a role-play (not a Quest!) is the most direct way to get serious thought going for her. Serious thought about balancing the interests of these two, as she isn't 100% on that yet. Role play lets us not speechify.

We need lots of help when Tokyo becomes active, I'm certain Chiyoda group will present unique flavor. But Madoka and Hitomi can't lead on this one, as much as that would feel nice. I want to keep a tight cordon between "mental powers" and Madoka.

We need other substantial contributions that would suit her choices and abilities... something that would make Madoka work a little... and increase team effectiveness...

Homura might not be center stage for this political venture... unless she was? To prepare for Witchfest in 13 days, and just maybe for use with actual politics if that happens, Homura needs public speaking practice.

I see opportunity.

Madoka could be coaching Homura for the spotlight. This is hard, but work she might relish.
 
HeroCycle said:
So our Enchanting practice for Sabrina can go to several useful paths today?

Privacy device for others? (easier? Mami can copy our original?)

Control enchantment that let another person use the enchantment? And Forbids a different person?
- Once this works, we can let other people remote into a Grief chibi...
which brings us really close to hooking one up to a Witch?

Control Enchantment that manages multiple enchantments already set by others?
Because, PLC?

Combining Control with other magic, to form a durable remote Magical Girl sensor?
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we need a way to interface with grief entities in a safe way something major
create something that allows us to talk to witches and such. its the first step towards dewitching
 
Godwinson said:
You know, considering this statement?

I'm definitely of the view that we should attempt to talk to Dedolere.

...preferably with a clear-seed close at hand, and either Kirika as a spotter, or a spotter with an antimagic gadget that works on Sabrina. Just in case.
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Dedolere is an ontological threat, thanks to the rather hilarious bootstrap process involved.
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I'd like to point out that it's an interesting selection of words there. An "ontological paradox" is a similiar type of paradox as the "bootstrap paradox", which are both a result of a stable time loop.

I've rewritten paragraphs about what exactly the bootstrap paradox might be and if its us, or how we were made, but I'm scrapping those because the more prevalent problem would be this: A bootstrap paradox is the result of a stable time loop. Homura is the only time traveler we are aware of, however while she uses time loops, they aren't stable time loops. She's resetting time each time she returns to the hospital, and while she keeps whats in her shield nothing else is affected(except the times where for example kyijibo playing a guitar hints that it's multiverse theory but lets not get into that especially since that also wouldn't allow a closed time loop) which means it's impossible for her to create a bootstrap paradox.

The only possible exception to this is Madoka's potential, which increases as Homura loops. If this is the bootstrap so to speak, it means that Dedolere is an ontological threat because Sabrina was created by Madokami/a Madokami level wish. However it could be argued that while Madoka's potential increased in the loops, it wasn't her previous potential carrying over into the next loop, but Madoka's increased worth to the world as Homura refused to let it continue, in which case something else caused the whatever the loop is, meaning we're missing an important piece of the puzzle.


Alternatively I completely misinterpreted the usage of bootstrap as a timetravel refrence when it just meant as a reference to bootstrapping in computing. Or a hasty patchjob although I might be mixing up metaphors with that one. I dunno, I kinda lost the plot of this post around the 30 minute mark.
 
Keldin said:
I'd like to point out that it's an interesting selection of words there. An "ontological paradox" is a similiar type of paradox as the "bootstrap paradox", which are both a result of a stable time loop.

I've rewritten paragraphs about what exactly the bootstrap paradox might be and if its us, or how we were made, but I'm scrapping those because the more prevalent problem would be this: A bootstrap paradox is the result of a stable time loop. Homura is the only time traveler we are aware of, however while she uses time loops, they aren't stable time loops. She's resetting time each time she returns to the hospital, and while she keeps whats in her shield nothing else is affected(except the times where for example kyijibo playing a guitar hints that it's multiverse theory but lets not get into that especially since that also wouldn't allow a closed time loop) which means it's impossible for her to create a bootstrap paradox.

The only possible exception to this is Madoka's potential, which increases as Homura loops. If this is the bootstrap so to speak, it means that Dedolere is an ontological threat because Sabrina was created by Madokami/a Madokami level wish. However it could be argued that while Madoka's potential increased in the loops, it wasn't her previous potential carrying over into the next loop, but Madoka's increased worth to the world as Homura refused to let it continue, in which case something else caused the whatever the loop is, meaning we're missing an important piece of the puzzle.


Alternatively I completely misinterpreted the usage of bootstrap as a timetravel refrence when it just meant as a reference to bootstrapping in computing. Or a hasty patchjob although I might be mixing up metaphors with that one. I dunno, I kinda lost the plot of this post around the 30 minute mark.
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I'm pretty sure 'bootstrap' here is used to refer to a start up process and not time travel paradoxes.
 
Godwinson said:
Man, I've been rereading PMAS, and it's just increasingly obvious that Feathers is Dedolere. Because if Sabrina's actions could break Oriko's visions of a scene, then Sabrina witching out would surely cause that -- Oriko was just reversing cause and effect. It wasn't that Feathers was killing Sabrina's friends, it's that in those futures, Sabrina's friends died and Dedolere resulted.

The clearest thing we can point at as being an Act of Feathers was to arrange for Sayaka to be attacked (and thus feel helpless and contract), while Sabrina was inside her own barrier. An act that very much so seems like someone who is trying to help, but has forgotten how to help without breaking people. Everything else besides that? Whispers that only Sabrina can hear, whispers that line up with being Dedolere, because the times the voice couldn't find Sabrina were times she was unburdened.

None of this is exactly new, but you know what? We had been talking about diplomacy and therapy with a witch? Let's start with the witch who has been contacting us, the one who we can't just defeat with more biggatons, the witch who is most likely to be able to hurt the people Sabrina cares about, and in so doing, hatch. Firn likes to comment about how it's always about the people, but we've always taken that as being about everyone around us. Sabrina is a people too ( :p ), and thus so is Dedolere. (Hell, it's Dedolere's name on Sabrina's soul gem in ring form)
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...Oh my god befriending Dedolere is how we overcome our range limit isn't it.
 
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