- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
hmmm. gosh you're probably right, god damn politics. just because we will make it a no strings attached, you don't have to agree thing doesnt mean they will
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
You're saying that Akane might be shifting girls around whenever new contracts are made, to create areas that are well above carrying capacity, in order to keep everywhere else at or below carrying capacity? That's... yikes.
Politically speaking, it makes a fair amount of sense. Akane can shift everyone so that girls from opposing parties (especially girls who are particularly charismatic, or otherwise a threat) are sent to those overflow areas, which makes the girls count even less politically (since each area still only elects one representative, no matter how high their population is), makes sure that her supporters are getting enough seeds, and eventually reduces the overall population of her opposition via witchouts. This would effectively make those overflow areas into slums, with everyone desperately competing against each other for seeds, thus also taking their attention away (somewhat) from political matters.
Furthermore, Akane could subtly influence opinion of those groups as violent or desperate (implying that that's somehow their fault, like people often do with the poor in real life), which would make others even less sympathetic to them.
Yet another benefit is in being able to keep most of the people who are are witch bombed together, so they don't spread that knowledge to others.
So... that's a thing. I really hope that's not how it is, but we don't have enough evidence to know one way or another yet. Hopefully this'll turn out to be incorrect. If not, well the magical girl system isn't the only system we can break.
Mumi?What I'm hearing is that we absolutely should dump a bunch of Mami pictures in here.
I'll start us off with a screenshot of @ArcadianPhoenix and me in Minecraft:
Yes Sabrina?
I have the weirdest urge to punch trees right now.
Oh, Sabrina.
Edit: EEEEEEE! I forgot to to gush about how awesome those skins are. I fucking love it!
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I'm currently confident to the idea that our power is attached to us rather than in us, per se. Firn's confirmed that the size of our Soul Gem's capacity doesn't exceed the average Magical Girl's, but it's canonical that the higher potential you have, the 'bigger' Soul Gem you have.
Which means our 'strange' potential is possibly because someone else is 'backing' us like a damn sponsor. Three guesses who.
If that's the case, then it's possible Sayaka that when Sayaka checks our Soul Gem and gets the 404 Power Not Found error, it's because...there really is no power there.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Your analysis seems to have been geared towards that. Girls changing teams doesn't imply gerrymandering when team composition is a literal matter of life and death, and such blatant electoral fuckery would be much more easily spotted and dismissed by a couple hundred girls who probably just learned about things in the last year. The desperate teams are held in check by the threat of collective action, not by redistricting.
Also, the desperate teams are held in check by the threat of collective action, not by the national guard or any other force the "president" directly controls. Akane might be powerful, but she's not powerful enough for Tokyo residents to see her as an enforcement mechanism unto herself. This means she has to actually try to balance things in something resembling good faith, and that she definitely can't afford to spend political capital going around trying to arbitrarily force girls into different groups.
I'd suggest thinking of the Tokyo Council as more of a thing, not because the norms are necessarily identical but more because a bunch of Vikings getting together to figure out how to avoid eternally blood feuding with each other probably sets about the right tone.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
In some sense, our view of the Tokyo Council will come down to an assessment of different qualities that matter. "Useful" to all involved, "Good" of moral actions, and "Fair" as regards to quality of life. Useful, as defined by the intended operation of their system under healthy conditions. For goodness, I suggest we learn more about the treatment of the lowest social classes. Fairness has a personal definition, from our outsider perspective or any citizen's experience, as well as a technical measure from theory.
If we consider theory, game theory, we can try to liken the Council to existing concepts. Which game are they playing? Is it :
Pirate game - Wikipedia
In a prescriptive model, are we joining their game, or playing a different game of our own with them, more like :
Ultimatum game - Wikipedia
TL;DR, we find out the limiting conditions of enough groups, and make communications more perfect, we might be able to act sooner in the best way. Interview, get contacts, move, repeat.
I'll accept our goal is to create maximal safe survivorship, and that political concerns should be viewed only through that lens initially.
This city has done interesting things, which have almost no future relevance in our proposed world.
It is much like Yuki predicted on her own behalf, so here we are going to navigate a similar set of disincentives. This time, without a framework that easily lets the leader of the other group pivot. If we eliminate scarcity in Tokyo, and the number of violent criminals is essentially finite, at some point they have a Council which has few if any reasons to exist. Unless they are already in operation above the military level?
We need to find out what else the Council is involved in, as the critical determinant of the motivations of the ruling coalitions. In our world, the modern UN is not very significant as a military organization. They have a huge impact in other areas, by creating programs that make policies ending with support for human goals reach out across national boundaries in a more stable way. How does the Council provide any services that aren't related to defense? How do they think of their own organization?
I want us to continue the interview, with some carefully chosen interests. At the same time, we would be wise to pay some attention to the Psychology Department, and see what our new contacts might offer us.
We also need, NEED a primer as to the laws / rules / culture propagated under the Council. The whole "what type of visit?" issue denotes a formalized treatment. Remaining ignorant would hamper us badly, as we cannot predict or understand what reactions any groups might have.
Our future course of action may require us to get other first-hand accounts around Tokyo, so finding out what our options are is important, too. Fill out our Tokyo address book.
Would we also want to signal Kurenai that she should test us for our Infohazzard status? That would convey enough, unless we are going to do the Privacy sphere deal.
Our "souvenir" for them should be a talk about Enchanting? Do they know about Soul Snuggles? Actually, does Yuri have any practical advice regarding magic with her muggle partner? Does this make you think of any reason we need to bring that knowledge back with us?
If we consider theory, game theory, we can try to liken the Council to existing concepts. Which game are they playing? Is it :
Pirate game - Wikipedia
In a prescriptive model, are we joining their game, or playing a different game of our own with them, more like :
Ultimatum game - Wikipedia
TL;DR, we find out the limiting conditions of enough groups, and make communications more perfect, we might be able to act sooner in the best way. Interview, get contacts, move, repeat.
I'll accept our goal is to create maximal safe survivorship, and that political concerns should be viewed only through that lens initially.
This city has done interesting things, which have almost no future relevance in our proposed world.
It is much like Yuki predicted on her own behalf, so here we are going to navigate a similar set of disincentives. This time, without a framework that easily lets the leader of the other group pivot. If we eliminate scarcity in Tokyo, and the number of violent criminals is essentially finite, at some point they have a Council which has few if any reasons to exist. Unless they are already in operation above the military level?
We need to find out what else the Council is involved in, as the critical determinant of the motivations of the ruling coalitions. In our world, the modern UN is not very significant as a military organization. They have a huge impact in other areas, by creating programs that make policies ending with support for human goals reach out across national boundaries in a more stable way. How does the Council provide any services that aren't related to defense? How do they think of their own organization?
I want us to continue the interview, with some carefully chosen interests. At the same time, we would be wise to pay some attention to the Psychology Department, and see what our new contacts might offer us.
We also need, NEED a primer as to the laws / rules / culture propagated under the Council. The whole "what type of visit?" issue denotes a formalized treatment. Remaining ignorant would hamper us badly, as we cannot predict or understand what reactions any groups might have.
Our future course of action may require us to get other first-hand accounts around Tokyo, so finding out what our options are is important, too. Fill out our Tokyo address book.
Would we also want to signal Kurenai that she should test us for our Infohazzard status? That would convey enough, unless we are going to do the Privacy sphere deal.
Our "souvenir" for them should be a talk about Enchanting? Do they know about Soul Snuggles? Actually, does Yuri have any practical advice regarding magic with her muggle partner? Does this make you think of any reason we need to bring that knowledge back with us?
Perhaps that is a necessary feature of our existence? Developing our Hope meditation may be a prudent investment for the future?
As the stranger in their community, how much "Thirteenth Warrior" is in our immediate future?
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Homumom, momdoka, and aunt mikiel
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
the issue with that idea is that when sayaka tried to copy us it wasn't that we didn't have a power, when she tried to copy madoka she got nothing, she didn't have a power, she got a 404 error,
when she tried to copy us it wasn't a 404 error she got a big fat N/A, in other words its not that we don't have a power she can copy, we can't have a power she can copy.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Since there doesn't seem to be a vote plan yet, a few things that struck me as worth asking, though it's mostly incomplete:
[] Inquire as to the character of the desperate groups.
A few possible lines here: How much can we learn about them in general? Names, what's known of their behavior and motives? etc. I imagine witchbombs are off the table, given the company we're in and the unreliability of trying a roundabout route, but even learning their names alone now would make things much easier if we get the contacts lists from Fukushima tomorrow.
In the same vein...
[] The an overview of the characters of various groups in general, at least the political factions and major players, such as they may or may not exist.
Needs refinement, but alas, I need sleep.
[] What ways of accepting our help are people debating?
I worry that just making our own proposal would be stepping on toes to debate various solutions just yet, but asking what is being said, and the complications thereof, seems fine. Plus it means we're not the fool stepping into the room with a creative solution that everyone else had already talked through and dismissed.
[x] Ask if the Tokyo Council has rules regarding mercenary work; fighting, evacuations, consultation, and things of that nature. Mitakihara has an emergency due at
the end of the month and there's a good chance you'll be hiring help around the same time you make your official visit.
Simple enough: We need to go a-hiring sooner or later, and now's a good time to learn what that will mean in Tokyo in particular.
Marking this one in, since it's reasonable complete, even if the rest of the vote isn't.
To take the direct quote:
[] Inquire as to the character of the desperate groups.
A few possible lines here: How much can we learn about them in general? Names, what's known of their behavior and motives? etc. I imagine witchbombs are off the table, given the company we're in and the unreliability of trying a roundabout route, but even learning their names alone now would make things much easier if we get the contacts lists from Fukushima tomorrow.
In the same vein...
[] The an overview of the characters of various groups in general, at least the political factions and major players, such as they may or may not exist.
Needs refinement, but alas, I need sleep.
[] What ways of accepting our help are people debating?
I worry that just making our own proposal would be stepping on toes to debate various solutions just yet, but asking what is being said, and the complications thereof, seems fine. Plus it means we're not the fool stepping into the room with a creative solution that everyone else had already talked through and dismissed.
[x] Ask if the Tokyo Council has rules regarding mercenary work; fighting, evacuations, consultation, and things of that nature. Mitakihara has an emergency due at
the end of the month and there's a good chance you'll be hiring help around the same time you make your official visit.
Simple enough: We need to go a-hiring sooner or later, and now's a good time to learn what that will mean in Tokyo in particular.
Marking this one in, since it's reasonable complete, even if the rest of the vote isn't.
I think you've got things backwards. Madoka did get the "zero" but the N/A and 404 ratings are both describing Sabrina, one in the update and one OOC from Firn afterwards.
To take the direct quote:
Thus, the "Sabrina is a terminal for something else" idea.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
You make a good point about how there's no national guard or police here (that we know of), and so obvious gerrymandering probably wouldn't work out so well. That would mean that Akane has to keep a much larger percentage of the overall population happy with her, in order to counter the threat of large groups becoming violent (more than 50%, even?), forcing her to be a much more 'benevolent' ruler. I guess we probably don't have to worry about slums then, so that's good.
How do you account for all the arguing then? I would think that a system where the ruler needs to keep so many supporters happy would gravitate towards people trying to cooperate with each other, because they need an actually large percentage of people to agree with them. Arguing is a very poor way to get people to agree with you, and very seldom works. Presumably a system where you need a decent percentage of people to vote with you would be a place with a lot of political backscratching and compromise. The reason that American politics is the way it is is because parties only have to satisfy a relatively small amount of the population.
Now then, implications. A political system where Akane needs to keep a much larger group of people happy means that power is much more spread out, and Akane herself wields much less of it. This in turn means that we have to convince a much larger group of people to vote to accept clear seeds. However, it also means that wealth (grief seeds) should also be much more spread out, meaning that we can appeal to people's greed and desperation a lot more easily.
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One possible explanation that I came up with is that our Grief control isn't a magical power at all, but rather just just a Wish effect. Our Wish gave us the ability to control Grief directly, rather than having a separate effect on the world and influencing our magical powers indirectly.
To test that hypothesis, I would like to see Sayaka try copying Homura. She also had an unusual Wish and she has no unique power, only a weapon.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I mean, I'd call Time Stop a unique power.
But also, every Magical Girl has a wish-effect ability. That's... largely the point.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
[X] blank out for a moment
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
[X] Hug Mumi. Mentally.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We have 661 ways we like coffee : |
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Making it even more impressive that our coffee cup is in a superposition of all of them.
[X] Enjoy your coffee. This is some damn good coffee, just how you like it.
[X] Ask more questions, and let Sayaka do the same.
[X] Ask more about the politics of the Council. Example questions:
-[X] Is the desire of some groups to unseat Toshimichi based on personal grievances, or just general chafing under authority?
-[X] Do multiple group representatives form larger "voting blocs" in the Council regarding certain issues?
--[X] If so, what are the main voting blocs? Any major players or "meta-factions" we should be aware of?
--[X] Do the "bloodthirsty" or "desperate" groups form a coherent bloc, or tear at each other too?
--[X] Which blocs is Osaka part of?
-[X] How dangerous are the "bloodthirsty" groups? Has there been actual violence?
-[X] What are the Council's restrictions on group behaviours outside of Tokyo?
--[X] North Tokyo was hired by Sendai to aid in a conflict, are there any rules about mercenary work?
[X] Ask about your proposal in particular. Example questions:
-[X] What are the main arguments against accepting your aid?
--[X] You were made aware that the Meiji group rejected your offer entirely. Does Kurenai know why?
-[X] Were there any proposals about how to accept your offer that seemed to be gaining general support?
--[X] It wouldn't be prohibitively difficult for you to simply cleanse twenty seven seeds, then use Sayaka's cloning abilities to make sure every Tokyo team received a Clear Seed simultaneously.
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Location
- Illinois
Restructure a bit. Include note about getting used seeds from the parties involved -- we don't have a trivial way to obtain 27 seeds on our own. Lead with response to the already-stated issue -- it's not okay to ask "what are main arguments against us" without addressing the one that's already been issued
Best to avoid seeking anything in particular in any way that might seem like a condition? Or, well, why is this even important?
Other than that... still interested in Rionna connection. Otherwise, I think it's good.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
We kinda do? With Sayaka's help we could probably get ten or more seeds a day with some dedicated effort, maybe even more if we go really apeshit and test out some more destructive attacks while inside Barriers.
I don't really want to ask the Tokyo groups for it, because I think it's safe to say that at least one of them is gonna be tight enough on Grief Seeds that they can't/won't risk one - and it'd invite accusations of favoritism if we substituted for some (but not all) of them. Beyond that, it makes for a stronger statement if we can say the Clear Seed is actually free.
It's not like collecting Grief Seeds from the various Tokyo groups would be quick, for that matter. It seems unlikely to me that we can pull off twenty seven meetings to collect Grief seeds faster than we can just hunt twenty seven witches.
Heck, hunting would be a pretty effective way for Firn to timeskip, which we all know he's wanted to do for a while. Just mostly skim over two or three days (the upcoming Monday and Tuesday?) where we and Sayaka obliterate Mitakihara's witch population while everybody's in class.
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- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Could we ask whether they have or have considered having a police force of some sort? If they actually do have a decently functional one (unlikely, but good to check), that would inform our model of what the political system is like, and if they don't I would like to know why. Perhaps it would be too expensive (meguca-hour-wise) to have a girl from each team working as part of a police force (if so, we should be aware that giving everyone clear seeds would allow for the creation of a police force, along with all the political changes that accompany it)? Perhaps they couldn't agree on a way to do it, since one girl from each team is excessive/expensive, but a smaller police force would mean that some teams would not be represented and thus may become oppressed?Making it even more impressive that our coffee cup is in a superposition of all of them.
[X] Enjoy your coffee. This is some damn good coffee, just how you like it.
[X] Ask more questions, and let Sayaka do the same.
[X] Ask more about the politics of the Council. Example questions:
-[X] Is the desire of some groups to unseat Toshimichi based on personal grievances, or just general chafing under authority?
-[X] Do multiple group representatives form larger "voting blocs" in the Council regarding certain issues?
--[X] If so, what are the main voting blocs? Any major players or "meta-factions" we should be aware of?
--[X] Do the "bloodthirsty" or "desperate" groups form a coherent bloc, or tear at each other too?
--[X] Which blocs is Osaka part of?
-[X] How dangerous are the "bloodthirsty" groups? Has there been actual violence?
-[X] What are the Council's restrictions on group behaviours outside of Tokyo?
--[X] North Tokyo was hired by Sendai to aid in a conflict, are there any rules about mercenary work?
[X] Ask about your proposal in particular. Example questions:
-[X] What are the main arguments against accepting your aid?
--[X] You were made aware that the Meiji group rejected your offer entirely. Does Kurenai know why?
-[X] Were there any proposals about how to accept your offer that seemed to be gaining general support?
--[X] It wouldn't be prohibitively difficult for you to simply cleanse twenty seven seeds, then use Sayaka's cloning abilities to make sure every Tokyo team received a Clear Seed simultaneously.
[] Has the council considered implementing a police force? What were the reasons they didn't implement one?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[X] Enjoy your coffee. This is some damn good coffee, just how you like it.
[X] Ask more questions, and let Sayaka do the same.
[X] Ask more about the politics of the Council. Example questions:
-[X] Is the desire of some groups to unseat Toshimichi based on personal grievances, or just general chafing under authority?
-[X] Do multiple group representatives form larger "voting blocs" in the Council regarding certain issues?
--[X] If so, what are the main voting blocs? Any major players or "meta-factions" we should be aware of?
--[X] Do the "bloodthirsty" or "desperate" groups form a coherent bloc, or tear at each other too?
--[X] Which blocs is Osaki part of?
-[X] How dangerous are the "bloodthirsty" groups? Has there been actual violence?
--[X] How does the Council actually enforce its rules? What happens if they're violated?
-[X] What are the Council's restrictions on group behaviours outside of Tokyo?
--[X] North Tokyo was hired by Sendai to aid in a conflict, are there any rules about mercenary work?
[X] Ask about your proposal in particular. Example questions:
-[X] Were there any proposals about how to accept your offer that seemed to be gaining general support?
--[X] You could simply cleanse twenty seven seeds, then use Sayaka's cloning abilities to make sure every Tokyo team received a Clear Seed simultaneously.
-[X] What are the main arguments against accepting your aid?
--[X] You heard that the Meiji group rejected your offer entirely. Does Kurenai know why?
Made some minor edits.
[X] Ask more questions, and let Sayaka do the same.
[X] Ask more about the politics of the Council. Example questions:
-[X] Is the desire of some groups to unseat Toshimichi based on personal grievances, or just general chafing under authority?
-[X] Do multiple group representatives form larger "voting blocs" in the Council regarding certain issues?
--[X] If so, what are the main voting blocs? Any major players or "meta-factions" we should be aware of?
--[X] Do the "bloodthirsty" or "desperate" groups form a coherent bloc, or tear at each other too?
--[X] Which blocs is Osaki part of?
-[X] How dangerous are the "bloodthirsty" groups? Has there been actual violence?
--[X] How does the Council actually enforce its rules? What happens if they're violated?
-[X] What are the Council's restrictions on group behaviours outside of Tokyo?
--[X] North Tokyo was hired by Sendai to aid in a conflict, are there any rules about mercenary work?
[X] Ask about your proposal in particular. Example questions:
-[X] Were there any proposals about how to accept your offer that seemed to be gaining general support?
--[X] You could simply cleanse twenty seven seeds, then use Sayaka's cloning abilities to make sure every Tokyo team received a Clear Seed simultaneously.
-[X] What are the main arguments against accepting your aid?
--[X] You heard that the Meiji group rejected your offer entirely. Does Kurenai know why?
Made some minor edits.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
[X] Continue conversation, have Sayaka engage them too. Check consistent, complete information is present, follow up.
-[X] Enjoy the coffee. Ask to sweep for Incubators.
[X] Let us learn all rules that apply to Tokyo citizens? What about contracting abroad? Who is the girl holding foreign policy authority?
[X] Detail the voting positions for and against our offer, who holds them, and outline the presumed motivations. Meji in particular. Who voted for our plan, or offered a substitute?
[X] We would like introductions to every leader.
[X] Ask for tour to Psychology Department. We wish to have business there.
[X] Violence is part of Council debate? Define 'boodthirsty.' Can we hear some of the history? Kyuubey talks about Council matters?
[X] Are there Council activities that don't relate to conflict? Are there taxes?
[X] Enchanting - talk shop about baseline humans in the magic environment. Move topic to Soul Snuggles.
-[X] Enjoy the coffee. Ask to sweep for Incubators.
[X] Let us learn all rules that apply to Tokyo citizens? What about contracting abroad? Who is the girl holding foreign policy authority?
[X] Detail the voting positions for and against our offer, who holds them, and outline the presumed motivations. Meji in particular. Who voted for our plan, or offered a substitute?
[X] We would like introductions to every leader.
[X] Ask for tour to Psychology Department. We wish to have business there.
[X] Violence is part of Council debate? Define 'boodthirsty.' Can we hear some of the history? Kyuubey talks about Council matters?
[X] Are there Council activities that don't relate to conflict? Are there taxes?
[X] Enchanting - talk shop about baseline humans in the magic environment. Move topic to Soul Snuggles.