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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Sentient Tree said:
I'm trying to say that she requires a fair trial. Any fair trial should convict her, so there should be no issue. In modern society everyone gets a fair trial, matter how obviously guilty. If 10 police officers watch you gun down an innocent victim, with video footage to prove it, you still get a fair trial. Does this fair trial lessen the likelihood of you being convicted if you are guilty? No. No it does not.
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And the reason for this: If anyone can be denied a fair trial, then, well, anyone can be denied a fair trial. Because no-one has to give you the opportunity to prove that you're not in the category of people who should be denied a fair trial.
 
Kaizuki said:
Essentially, justifying taking down Rionna to a reasonable person only requires that we convince them that we offered free cleansing for cessation of unnecessary serious criminal actions and she just completely declined and gave us reason to believe that she was going to threaten the lives of others, and that there weren't any apparent extenuating circumstances (ie any apparent decent reasons to express those sentiments -- like a hostage or something).
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Fair enough. How will we convince them of this? One option that someone (might have been you? I'm on mobile so not going to look for it) mentioned was to get an impartial magical girl who has lie detector powers. Particularly one that is good enough to beat Kyubey, so they know we aren't just omitting the truth.
Another option is a mind reader, but that might either not work on us, or actively fry the meguca's mind.


mCooperative said:
It also feels like there's some talking over one another again? In that, can we at least all agree that we're not likely to be able to put together a coherent justice system within the space of this Quest, and a proper trial will have to wait until we have such a fair system put together, so if we want one, it's going to have to wait, but until then, we should try to hold ourselves to the standards of the system that we want to create, even if at the present time that's primarily based on what we and our friends think (particularly with respect to Sabrina consulting her friends to avoid being herself acting unilaterally)? @Gadjo @Aris Katsaris @Kaizuki @Sentient Tree @Filraen
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Yeah, I guess so. I hadn't originally realized just how much work would have to be put into creating enough of a legal system to have a fair trial.
I don't like waiting to give her her trial, but I guess it can wait. Is there some alternative way we can learn more about her? We'll be spending a ton of time in Edinburgh from now on, so maybe doing some detective work on what she was doing there?
 
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Sentient Tree said:
One option that someone (might have been you? I'm on mobile so not going to look for it) mentioned was to get an impartial magical girl who has lie detector powers.
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I know I brought it up at some point in one of my recent posts about the legal system, might've been me you're thinking of.

It seems like the sort of power that turns up not infrequently, at any rate. See if the mercenaries know anyone? Or the IRC?
 
mCooperative said:
I know I brought it up at some point in one of my recent posts about the legal system, might've been me you're thinking of.

It seems like the sort of power that turns up not infrequently, at any rate. See if the mercenaries know anyone? Or the IRC?
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Asking the mercenaries is a good idea. Also, maybe Nadia?

One benefit of this whole thing is that we're establishing a precedent that it's okay for Sabrina to strike first when necessary. This way, we can just nuke the Iowa group (once we have more information on their powers and have a way to 'nuke' them without collateral damage).
 
I'd just like to point out that this topic has come up before in-story.

Firnagzen said:
"I... I've been thinking about meguca justice," you say, and try for a smile. "Just... it's a really heavy topic. I mean hey, legal scholars have wrestled with regular justice for a couple millennia and it's still not perfect, right?"

"Oh. Is that all?" Sayaka says, relaxing. "Sheesh. You actually got me all worked up and anxious and everything."

"No, I mean-" you shake your head. "OK, look, it's not an easy topic. Look at Airi, right? She was just one girl - with an accomplice, true, but the worst damage she did was on her own. And we're getting refugees and everything into Mitakihara soon. All it'd take is just one girl."

Aaaand you dodged the topic.

Mami squeezes your hand, silent support in the way she snuggles up against your side.

"Then we just hunt her down," Sayaka says, grinning and holding up a clenched fist. "This is our turf. No one's getting away from us."

"Yeah, no, you're right," you agree despite the stomach-twisting worry gnawing at you. "Hunting them down is a... solved problem. It might be tricky in practice, but we know we can do it. Hell, you could probably do a decent job all on your own, with your clones - not that we're gonna drop the entire thing on you. And maybe we could even get the incoming people to help with, ah, policing. The problem is what comes after."

"Yeah, I can see that." Sayaka scowls thoughtfully. "And you don't want to just toss them in jail."

"Heck no," you say. Your gaze flicks over to Homura for a split second. She's relaxing, somewhat, following your conversation. "I mean... no. I don't want to just leave them to rot - it's just... not good for anyone. For the ones imprisoned, or for the ones doing the imprisoning. I mean, it's not like we have an actual jail, or police, or lawyers or judges or anything for magical girls."

Sayaka makes a face. "I guess I see what you mean, but... do we need all that?"

"I think we do, if we're going to handle this many magical girls," you say, spreading your hands. "We can't handle everything ourselves. Which means professionals of some kind, or at least people who can handle these things."

"Yeah... I guess so," Sayaka says. "Ugh. Lawyers."

"I mean, hey, how else do we see justice done?" you says, shrugging. "And again - jail can't be our only option. We shouldn't be locking people away permanently or anything, you know?"

"So... what, therapy?" Sayaka asks, making a face.
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And frankly, the points Sabrina brought up earlier still stand. Rionna needs to be detained until she's no longer a danger to others. But that shouldn't mean "forever", even if it does mean "beyond the end of this quest".
 
Firnagzen said:
So I'm going to go ahead and close the vote for now. I'll cherry pick as necessary from Onmur's vote, if it turns out that we hit scenarios he covers. I'll be targeting an update on... my Saturday or Sunday.
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Shit is going down. Looking forward to it!



Also, Rionna deserves an award. She's so bad at social that she got an idealistic hero to effectively put her into an indefinite coma on their first meeting ;p

Wait, isn't Sayaka currently training with Kyouko and Yuma?
 
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Aris Katsaris said:
Thank you, I had actually forgotten this had come up in-story.
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Yeah.

Sabrina's stated principles on incarceration are "keep them detained for the safety of others, while attempting to provide sufficient therapy until they no longer are a risk to others".

Under that paradigm, people forced to do "evil" acts to survive who no longer have those pressures shouldn't be incarcerated - which fits with her approach towards the Fukushima group.

It's also where our "leniency" towards Oriko comes from - Oriko's very unlikely to keep being a danger to others at this point, so Sabrina sees keeping her cooped up as essentially pointless.

Any kind of legal system we institute probably has to be established along similar lines, because, well, the set of magical girls who haven't had to compromise on their morals to survive is a pretty exclusive group.

If that's the case, then our "trial" system is going to be primarily based on convincing a relatively impartial judge/panel of psychiatrists/jury that someone is/isn't a threat to others, with similar approaches taken towards any kind of "parole".

And to her credit, Sabrina has so far deferred to others when it comes to making those judgements. It's why we're taking Sayaka and Homura's opinions into account when it comes to our treatment of Oriko (beyond their personal stakes), it's why we discussed helping Hijiri with the Pleiades, and it's why we're discussing taking down Rionna with our friends instead of acting unilaterally.

AuraTwilight said:
Time Stop means this literally doesn't matter.
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On the contrary - because our release condition is "when she's therapied enough", instead of some set amount of time passing by, it means that we have a responsibility to provide our prisoners with therapy (and attendant access to their bodies) as soon as we have the necessary infrastructure to do so in place*.

After all, keeping them in stasis in Homura's shield means that they are making literally zero progress towards potential eventual rehabilitation.

* Rionna isn't a newbie like Airi that's esentially harmless without her magic. If nothing else, her Shades likely have standing orders to check back in with her and attempt to free her/take revenge if she's incapacitated, and we know that they have a global range. So even beyond hiring a skilled therapist who proves their trustworthiness, "minimum infrastructure" for providing Rionna with therapy requires at minimum a long talk with Yuki about security, and probably a bunch of antimagic enchantment contributions from Kirika. Probably a week or so of observation as we try to reclaim her shades.
 
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Something about the potential meguca legal system that I suspect may unpleasantly surprise some people, is that it will inevitably have to start with an amnesty.

The law must be enforced impartially and must not apply retroactively. If we were going to be consistent about prosecuting any meguca who in the past violated our rules, I suspect we'd end up going after a significant fraction of the whole population. At that scale, it would be a war, not enforcement of justice. And I don't think we either want that or can afford to do it.

So, amnesty. A clean slate for every girl, in the new world of Clear Seeds for everyone. But then, what about Rionna? If she promises not to murder innocents anymore, do we let her go in accordance with the amnesty? What about jurisdiction, are we going to police what goes on in Edinburgh, on the other side of the world?

In any case, I would strongly advise against any kind of impromptu trial of Rionna without proper infrastructure in place. It would inevitably become a mockery of justice. We're taking her down because it's the right thing to do and because we can. Let's just stick to that and not pretend it's anything more.
 
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Roomba said:
Something about the potential meguca legal system that I suspect may unpleasantly surprise some people, is that it will inevitably have to start with an amnesty.

The law must be enforced impartially and must not apply retroactively. If we were going to be consistent about prosecuting any meguca who in the past violated our rules, I suspect we'd end up going after a significant fraction of the whole population. At that scale, it would be a war, not enforcement of justice. And I don't think we either want that or can afford to do it.

So, amnesty. A clean slate for every girl, in the new world of Clear Seeds for everyone. But then, what about Rionna? If she promises not to murder innocents anymore, do we let her go in accordance with the amnesty? What about jurisdiction, are we going to police what goes on in Edinburgh, on the other side of the world?

In any case, I would strongly advise against any kind of impromptu trial of Rionna without proper infrastructure in place. It would inevitably become a mockery of justice. We're taking her down because it's the right thing to do and because we can. Let's just stick to that and not pretend it's anything more.
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I think amnesty from Time Before Sabrina is what we've been going for.

The problem with Riona* is not that she did evil, but that she won't stop doing evil now that there's no need.

Sure, Riona went far beyond the evil she needed to survive, far beyond any justification, so there's very valid arguments to make about imprisoning her anyway, just for everyone's safety, even if she promised to stop doing her evulz thing.

*There's also lots of other problems with Riona, but I'm ignoring those for this point.
 
Roomba said:
A clean slate for every girl, in the new world of Clear Seeds for everyone. But then, what about Rionna? If she promises not to murder innocents anymore, do we let her go in accordance with the amnesty?
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If we (or whoever our impartial panel that we eventually set up so this isn't just a Sabrina dictatorship) honestly believe that Rionna is no longer a threat to others (which has a standard of evidence a bit higher then just "promising it", at this point)?

Then yes. We do let her go. Because the incarceration isn't a punishment. That's the standard that Sabrina's applied to Oriko (and yes, I'm aware that Oriko's crimes were several orders of magnitude smaller), so it's the standard we should apply to Rionna.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Yeah.

Sabrina's stated principles on incarceration are "keep them detained for the safety of others, while attempting to provide sufficient therapy until they no longer are a risk to others".

Under that paradigm, people forced to do "evil" acts to survive who no longer have those pressures shouldn't be incarcerated - which fits with her approach towards the Fukushima group.

It's also where our "leniency" towards Oriko comes from - Oriko's very unlikely to keep being a danger to others at this point, so Sabrina sees keeping her cooped up as essentially pointless.

Any kind of legal system we institute probably has to be established along similar lines, because, well, the set of magical girls who haven't had to compromise on their morals to survive is a pretty exclusive group.

If that's the case, then our "trial" system is going to be primarily based on convincing a relatively impartial judge/panel of psychiatrists/jury that someone is/isn't a threat to others, with similar approaches taken towards any kind of "parole".

And to her credit, Sabrina has so far deferred to others when it comes to making those judgements. It's why we're taking Sayaka and Homura's opinions into account when it comes to our treatment of Oriko (beyond their personal stakes), it's why we discussed helping Hijiri with the Pleiades, and it's why we're discussing taking down Rionna with our friends instead of acting unilaterally.



On the contrary - because our release condition is "when she's therapied enough", instead of some set amount of time passing by, it means that we have a responsibility to provide our prisoners with therapy (and attendant access to their bodies) as soon as we have the necessary infrastructure to do so in place*.

After all, keeping them in stasis in Homura's shield means that they are making literally zero progress towards potential eventual rehabilitation.

* Rionna isn't a newbie like Airi that's esentially harmless without her magic. If nothing else, her Shades likely have standing orders to check back in with her and attempt to free her/take revenge if she's incapacitated, and we know that they have a global range. So even beyond hiring a skilled therapist who proves their trustworthiness, "minimum infrastructure" for providing Rionna with therapy requires at minimum a long talk with Yuki about security, and probably a bunch of antimagic enchantment contributions from Kirika. Probably a week or so of observation as we try to reclaim her shades.
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Er, I was referring to "Sayaka being busy doesn't matter, this costs her literally no time."

SaltyWaffles said:
It means that Mami is going to see and be right next to Kyouko...while Kyouko is frozen in time stop and totally unaware. That will be one hell of an experience for her. It's a shame we probably won't be there to see it.
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Homura can grab Sayaka and bring her here. There's absolutely no reason for Sabrina and Mami to go to where Kyouko is. Sayaka would have to come over to try to copy Rionna's power anyway.
 
Sentient Tree said:
Fair enough. How will we convince them of this?
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And how would we have convinced them she'd received a fair trial, hm?

Goalposts. Stop moving them... Although I suppose that might not have been your intention.

I don't have an answer for this, btw. I feel that we lack the necessary intermediaries. Mami's word, however, goes an awfully long way where ours doesn't, to the point that in her word against Rionna's, she probably wins.

Aris Katsaris said:
If we can get agreement on that, then I'm fine. But I don't think I share your confidence that everyone treats it as an 'of course we'll do that'.
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Yeah, no shit. You haven't treated it as an "of course we'll do that," so naturally not everyone treats it that way. This argument has literally only existed because you created it from thin air by doubting that we would set up a legal system and then arguing that we should.

Go read To The Stars if you want an idea of our long-term plans. We're gonna found the damn MSY, hopefully without the partially dystopic elements.
 
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As I think about legal frameworks, there is one thing that I think we should do for anyone we expect to give a trial: recordkeeping. Using grief, a pen, and a notebook, we can easily act as a stenographer, which will be important evidence for any future trial.

We know that we have effectively perfect memory, but not everyone is going to trust that and they shouldn't have to.
 
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