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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Redshirt Army said:
Of course, it's entirely possible that she was always a remorseless nutjob who never cared about anyone. But her power carries such perverse incentive structures that even if she was incredibly intrinsically moral, she'd have slid down to something like where she is now almost regardless of what she was like. And given the themes of both PMMM and PMAS... I'd think less of the writing of the quest, if she was always a monster from the start.
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I would say, nobody is a 'monster from the start', but it is possible KB saw a need for an actress like Riona in its system, and simply offered Riona a Wish at the 'best' time possibly, so as to endorse the 'right' sort of feelings for Riona to become what she is.

Sure, it wouldn't be smooth sailing, but I consider it a valid possibility that Riona has been manipulated into not really regretting her own Wish and actions, but rather always had an 'acceptable' target for that guilt.

I would consider it more likely that Riona is a case of 'power corrupts', though. Her actions becoming inexcusable when she starts confusing what's 'good' and what benefits her, that is, when she starts making excuses to build up her own personal army.

Redshirt Army said:
Or, to put it in other words: If a magical girl makes a wish to revive someone from the dead, and ends up with Rionna's wraith creating power, is there a "moral" path for her that doesn't end with her own death, if Sabrina's abilities don't get involved?
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I feel there's probably Lawful Good protagonists with powers not unlike Riona's, who nobody would question for having and using those powers. Riona's already seems to have gone down the deep end, but someone else with her powers? It could become a quest of reviving those sousl properly?
 
On the plus side when we do that rant/destress with Homura in time stop we are going to have plenty to rant about.

Homura might give us a hug.
 
Nolrai said:
Okay, but like..what does that mean? I mean like I don't believe inexcusable actions. Not really. Like some actions need to be punished even when there are mitigating factors. (though hard and fast rules are..not really good ideas when taken to extremes.) but by that measure saying they are not excusable means "you* must punish them".
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I like that line, let's make a court of law analogy with it to try to explain things:

- She needs to be punished because she kept slaving sould without regret (we're not excusing her; she's guilty, plain and simple)

- Now, how are we punishing her? If we can make her agree to free all Shades and not make any more we could change death/gem penalty for community service*... but for that Riona has agree to free all the Shades and not make any more after her community service ends. (is Riona redeemable?)
 
Firnagzen said:
That's not something Nadia might know about unless she hears about it from elsewhere
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What I don't get is how she doesn't hear about it from Rionna. She (Rionna, that is) isn't exactly keeping it secret. And the whole "making examples" thing seems like it should mean she wants publicity.

Frankly, for this reason and to protect our own reputation from becoming "attacks someone unprovoked when she just came to talk", I think if it does come to a fight, our first action should be to telepathically ask Nadia (cc: literally everyone we can contact, including Rionna) why she didn't tell us about this. She can explain if she didn't know, but our assumption should be that she did, because it took literally no digging for us to hear about it. And if what Rionna does to her victims is something she keeps a secret, it needs to not be, and she needs to live long enough to see that. Maybe hearing it broadcast to the world will remind her what it was like to have a sense of shame about her actions, and give us the opening we need to get her to stop.

If it is a secret, that would also suggest that she never planned to let us walk out of this meeting alive, even after finding out we're not a fake grief controller. Which is actually somewhat comforting in that it suggests the reason she didn't immediately start a fight, and hasn't yet, is that she doesn't know if she can win.

Gadjo said:
It might make sense if she wants something she knows is so morally grey/black that Sabrina would never agree, I think.
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I don't think that's what it is. I think she doesn't trust us and wants to keep everything about her sister's situation secret [including, possibly, that there's one particular shade that's the real reason she's not willing to let all of her shades go, let alone which one it is or why] at all costs. Which Oriko warned us about - I don't think there necessarily has to be an additional reason.
 
Onmur said:
On the topic of not *top priority*, though, I don't think 'top priority' means too much right now, because we're not in the middle of an emergency that would require us to choose between dealing with this, or with something else. I'm not certain what you meant, but wanted to point that out; since there's no emergency taking up our time, it doesn't really matter whether this is 'top priority' or not; we'll handle it as well as we can.
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I didn't quite mean "top priority" in the sense of *emergencies* (though that too, that it's not an emergency) but in the sense of whether stopping Riona (whether at all costs, or at the *anticipated* costs) is really the best thing we can do, in regards to maximizing goodness and justice for all of the planet, rather than letting her be for the time being and cooperating with her in those ways we can.

E.g. Riona argues that she's mainly imprisoning bad people that deserve it. We've not made our own independent investigation in regards to the extent of how true that is. Stopping Riona for her bad deeds, when she's also in the business of stopping people for their own bad deeds, seems a sort of *unclear* moral equation, and the moral answer depends on lots of factors that Sabrina doesn't have the answers to yet. *Even* if some innocent people are also enslaved -- we don't demolish all prisons because sometimes innocent people also end up imprisoned, we just try to ensure that it happens as rarely as possible.

The solution in the long term would be to establish a sort of global judicial system that would allow judgment to be passed on other magical girls by their peers -- a framework of law and justice, rather than the Rule of the Stronger. But in the absence of such -- is it worth the risk to us and ours, or the opportunity cost (given the knowledge she can give us), to stop Riona's behavior?

DB_Explorer said:
If this was court she would be guilt, we just have to decide the sentence.
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And then decide our own sentence, for making ourselves Judge, Jury and Executioner?

When the International Magical Girl Court first convenes, it's possible it will declare "violation of the rules of hospitality" to be a worse crime than "enslaving the souls of your enemies".
 
Roomba said:
So, it's looking like Rionna is essentially a villain we're supposed to punch out? I guess that's fine if it means we get to finally move on from this slog of a conversation.

I'd still much rather discuss this course of action with our friends first, and ideally check out Edinburgh in timestop to figure out what we're actually dealing with here.



Maybe it's meant to be a lesson: "This is what the broader meguca world is like, and people like this exist in it too.". And maybe the real challenge isn't dealing with Rionna herself, but with the broader consequences of shanking her, though I admit that might be wishful thinking on my part. Like you say, it's kind of... pointless, if we take her down and just go back to business as usual.
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I'll remind you and everyone else that the only thing we know in terms of Judgement is that her *past* activities have been heinous. We have not, previously, met any antagonist who appeared irredeemable. Whether Rionna is or not is an open question, albeit one whose responses to our probing at thus far have been met with, essentially, a "fuck you."

This *does* make letting her run off on her own a Bad Thing, at least from most reasonable perspectives, I think -- past actions inform the future. But it does not make her a "villain to be punched out."
 
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Kaizuki said:
I'll remind you and everyone else that the only thing we know in terms of Judgement is that her *past* activities have been heinous. We have not, previously, met any antagonist who appeared irredeemable. Whether Rionna is or not is an open question, albeit one whose responses to our probing at thus far have been met with, essentially, a "fuck you."

This *does* make letting her run off on her own a Bad Thing, at least from most reasonable perspectives, I think -- past actions inform the future. But it does not make her a "villain to be punched out."
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Indeed hence, again, why I really just want to know why she came. Was she expecting us to be evil enough to justify to herself our death or is this an elaborate means for us to start shit by egging us on?

Seriously why did she come, whats her agenda?
 
Kaizuki said:
I'll remind you and everyone else that the only thing we know in terms of Judgement is that her *past* activities have been heinous. We have not, previously, met any antagonist who appeared irredeemable. Whether Rionna is or not is an open question, albeit one whose responses to our probing at thus far have been met with, essentially, a "fuck you."

This *does* make letting her run off on her own a Bad Thing, at least from most reasonable perspectives, I think -- past actions inform the future. But it does not make her a "villain to be punched out."
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If she doesn't feel regret for what she did, and she refuses to stop, and we aren't allowed to speculate that she might have had reasons for what she did, the only thing she can be is a villian to be punched out.

I mean, I can't think of a description any more fitting of such a person and I am sincreley trying.

Unrepentant offender who has no excuse for their actions, who refuses to stop offending to anything less than overwhelming force is what we're being told. It honestly feels like the correct choice couldn't be more clear if Firn were curling our fists himself while lining our arm up to punch her.
 
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DB_Explorer said:
Indeed hence, again, why I really just want to know why she came. Was she expecting us to be evil enough to justify to herself our death or is this an elaborate means for us to start shit by egging us on?

Seriously why did she come, whats her agenda?
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I do think it's likely she just figured we're an evil grief controller and wanted to take our power. Either because she wants the power, or because she has a vendetta against grief controllers.

And she plans to go back home empty handed because:

a) We're not evil, not an acceptable target in her mind.

b) We're too strong, not an acceptable risk. Childish, but that's just the sort of impulses KB looks to exacerbate.



I'll add, if we can't Social Riona well enough right now, we do have until tomorrow to work on her. If need be, we can take a break.

In such a case, I think I'd like to demand:

- Riona doesn't leave this room. What with her arriving unnanounced and threatening Sabrina and friends, we'd be justified in at the very least kicking her out, her flight be damned. Restraining her to a single room is almost being too kind, hm?

- We'll talk again before her flight back. Later tonight, or tomorrow. Maybe both!

- We'll restrain her magic with an antimagic enchant for the duration of her stay? (I think she did say she needs to keep the shades else they vanish? which would make this more difficult.)

I'm sure Homu wouldn't protest if we ask her to watch over Riona tonight.

And I'd like to talk with Oriko, too. This is not what she led us to expect when she brought up Soulguca. :/
 
Are we certain this wasn't all set up for some nefarious purpose by Nadia who is secretly EVIL!!! ? Maybe both Rionna and us are getting played here. :thonk:
 
Laurelin said:
Are we certain this wasn't all set up for some nefarious purpose by Nadia who is secretly EVIL!!! ? Maybe both Rionna and us are getting played here. :thonk:
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It's obviously Oriko's plot.

She wanted Riona to kill her and take her Soul, for nefarious purposes.

In fact, Oriko and Kirika are lurking just outside our sensing range right now! :o
 
Laurelin said:
Are we certain this wasn't all set up for some nefarious purpose by Nadia who is secretly EVIL!!! ? Maybe both Rionna and us are getting played here. :thonk:
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Not to exacerbate the silly paranoia, but if Nadia did inform Rionna about Sabrina's power for her own purposes, I think it's more likely to either be:
A.) Because Nadia saw Soulguca as a threat that needs to be eliminated, but she doesn't have the personal power to do it, but now knows a team that can (Mitakihara group)
B.) Because Nadia still thinks Rionna can be redeemed, and pointed her to the person best suited to help her accomplish that.
 
Kaizuki said:
I'll remind you and everyone else that the only thing we know in terms of Judgement is that her *past* activities have been heinous. We have not, previously, met any antagonist who appeared irredeemable. Whether Rionna is or not is an open question, albeit one whose responses to our probing at thus far have been met with, essentially, a "fuck you."

This *does* make letting her run off on her own a Bad Thing, at least from most reasonable perspectives, I think -- past actions inform the future. But it does not make her a "villain to be punched out."
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Allright, that's fine. I just want to make sure that, if/when we decide to attack her, we'll do so responsibly and with an understanding of the possible consequences.

In the interim, I really like the idea of just ending the conversation and gathering more information. Starting with Oriko and Nadia.
 
Yeah, this Rionna situation is basically Akiko all over again, except that the impetus for starting a fight to force change is on us. And without even having a chance to find out what the heart of the problem is. Getting to the bottom of things with Rionna is even worse, like pulling teeth. Meanwhile, the pace of the quest grinds to a halt, everyone is frustrated, everyone's patience is running out, forcing us to kill or gem her.

It's exactly like with Oriko, except that Oriko was more cooperative (just unable to speak plainly even when her and her girlfriend's life depended on it), and we had plenty of other people to ask with the Akiko situation. Here, we have neither. Some posters don't want to jump to violence/takedowns without a provocation or clear and present victim, some realize this is going nowhere, and many have just lost patience and just want to be DONE with her so that we can finally move on to something that isn't boring and like banging your head against a wall. No wonder the thread's discussion has become so heated, serious, and unfun. It reflects the situation we're stuck in.

@Firnagzen
 
Random832 said:
Frankly, for this reason and to protect our own reputation from becoming "attacks someone unprovoked when she just came to talk", I think if it does come to a fight, our first action should be to telepathically ask Nadia (cc: literally everyone we can contact, including Rionna) why she didn't tell us about this.
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We've been worried (for good reason) that she can hijack telepathy channels. We can do that after she's incapacitated.
 
Laurelin said:
Are we certain this wasn't all set up for some nefarious purpose by Nadia who is secretly EVIL!!! ? Maybe both Rionna and us are getting played here. :thonk:
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I can see it now...
"So this, gal, Brina, she be a good person?"
"Oh no, she, uhh, she... Microwaves tea!"
"....."
"Uh, Rionn-"
"She what!"
"Yeah, she microwaves tea!"
"Well, I may 'ave to try 'arder to make nice wit'er, then."
"And she controls grief, so she's probably emo!"
"Ain't mah place to joodge."
"Well, umm.... if she microwaves tea, what's to say she doesn't microwave cider?"
"....Nadia?"
"Yes?"
"Can you tell mah lil sis, who is alive and who I love very much, that I'll be in Mitakihara for a bit?"
"Of course, Rionna."
"Well, la'er."
*leaves*
*evil cackaling*
"Now, my master plan to live in suffering for the rest of my life will be complete! NO ONE CAN SAVE ME NOW!"
 
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defenestrator said:
Not to exacerbate the silly paranoia, but if Nadia did inform Rionna about Sabrina's power for her own purposes, I think it's more likely to either be:
A.) Because Nadia saw Soulguca as a threat that needs to be eliminated, but she doesn't have the personal power to do it, but now knows a team that can (Mitakihara group)
B.) Because Nadia still thinks Rionna can be redeemed, and pointed her to the person best suited to help her accomplish that.
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Either way a heads up would have been nice. If she didn't know, she didn't know (but before the end of this I do want to find out why she didn't know), but if she did know and had some idea for what we were supposed to do in this situation, she should have shared it with us.

Gadjo said:
We've been worried (for good reason) that she can hijack telepathy channels. We can do that after she's incapacitated.
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She probably can't fake everyone's annoyed responses at suddenly being added to a conference call. This has to be before she's incapacitated in order to establish that this isn't just "the winner writes the history books".
 
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kinigget said:
I'll be frank, I'm a bit uncomfortable being told to drop the discussion about why Rionna does what she does

Understanding her motivations and targets shoukd be necessary to figuring out how to redeem her/get her to stop without gemming/killing her

And even then, I'd still sooner let her walk then have this come to a fight, for several reasons, but primarily because we understand nothing about the situation in Edinburgh and how removing Rionna might affect it

People keep talking about how anyone she kills if we let her go is on us, but any casualties from any fallout that gemming her causes is on us too
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She's explained why she does what she does. She takes souls and enthrals them for power. She targets people she can justify to herself doing this to.

The question is what her personal problem is, and what she needs to solve it, and why she believes we can't help but our powers can if we're willing to let her take our soul. And she completely refuses to answer those questions. And she refuses to even entertain a compromise.

So there's nowhere to go from here. We either kill or gem her, or we let her leave and continue enslaving souls as she pleases.
 
kinigget said:
I'll be frank, I'm a bit uncomfortable being told to drop the discussion about why Rionna does what she does

Understanding her motivations and targets shoukd be necessary to figuring out how to redeem her/get her to stop without gemming/killing her

And even then, I'd still sooner let her walk then have this come to a fight, for several reasons, but primarily because we understand nothing about the situation in Edinburgh and how removing Rionna might affect it

People keep talking about how anyone she kills if we let her go is on us, but any casualties from any fallout that gemming her causes is on us too
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Nobody is telling you to stop discussing the "why." Only whether or not her actions, independent of other factors, were evil.

On the contrary, the "why" is one of two central questions here, the other being whether or not to keep probing at her to try and learn the "why."

065tdsa said:
What system of morality are we using again? Because I really do not know how we're supposed to react to her doing terrible things if we do not know by which standard they are terrible.
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Next update will have that information is the understanding.
 
Lord Chungus said:
I can see it now...
"So this, gal, Brina, she be a good person?"
"Oh no, she, uhh, she... Microwaves tea!"
"....."
"Uh, Rionn-"
"She what!"
"Yeah, she microwaves tea!"
"Well, I may 'ave to try 'arder to make nice wit'er, then."
"And she controls grief, so she's probably emo!"
"Ain't mah place to joodge."
"Well, umm.... if she microwaves tea, what's to say she doesn't microwave cider?"
"....Nadia?"
"Yes?"
"Can you tell mah lil sis, who is alive and who I love very much, that I'll be in Mitakihara for a bit?"
"Of course, Rionna."
"Well, la'er."
*leaves*
*evil cackaling*
"Now, my master plan to live in suffering for the rest of my life will be complete! NO ONE CAN SAVE ME NOW!"
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Now I'm picturing Rionna's sister showing up and telling her to stop with the act. Cue Rionna being delusional and thinking being edgy is cool.

Can't remember the Japanese phrase for those types.
 
DB_Explorer said:
Now I'm picturing Rionna's sister showing up and telling her to stop with the act. Cue Rionna being delusional and thinking being edgy is cool.

Can't remember the Japanese phrase for those types.
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Conjured Blade said:
Chunnibiyou?
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Type two Tsundere.

I'm calling everyone tsundere, regardless of whether they qualify.

You know what would be an excellent idea?

Having Anri, Oriko, Akiko, Ono, Riona and Sakura enter the same room, lock the doors and open when only one of them is still conscious.

I will call this idea ummm
Group Therapy
 
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