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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Sigh I find its quite sad one of the first girl from overseas we meet is evil since she is different from magical girls in Japan apart from Nadia.
Since we can't excuse her past actions I really hope we can redeem her instead of killing her.

Anyway on a
 
On the topic of killing Riona, I just want to quote a certain other work of fiction with an overpowered main character who's just trying to do the right thing.

WILF: Oh, come on, don't start. But you said, you were told he will knock four times and then you die. Well, that's him, isn't it? The Master. [...] The Master is going to kill you.
THE DOCTOR: Yeah.
WILF: Then kill him first.
THE DOCTOR: And that's how the Master started.
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Sigh I find it sad that one of the first magical girls we meet from overseas is evil considering how different they are from magical girls in Japan apart from Nadia.
Since we can't excuse her past actions, I really hope we can redeem her instead of killing her.

On a lighter note I wonder how Sabrina would interact in Gensokyo, I mean if she failed and Kyubey succeeded in erasing memories of her existence on earth, she would ended up there.
Would Sabrina build a new Touhou life since the earth outside is different like no Incubators
 
FeepingCreature said:
On the topic of killing Riona, I just want to quote a certain other work of fiction with an overpowered main character who's just trying to do the right thing.
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Nah, we can just subdue her like we do any other magical girl and put her in meguca jail for awhile while we figure out what to do with her. Killing her is certainly easier, but not really a preferable first resort. And it's not so much out of fear that she'll kill us, but that she'll keep doing awful things.
 
Gadjo said:
Nah, we can just subdue her like we do any other magical girl and put her in meguca jail for awhile while we figure out what to do with her. Killing her is certainly easier, but not really a preferable first resort. And it's not so much out of fear that she'll kill us, but that she'll keep doing awful things.
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If we do that, make sure to get Kirika there so we can hit her with Antimagic. We want to break her connection to her shades. Both for our safety, and to let those girls pass on.
 
Mmm. I find myself questioning what the point of Rionna is, as a character, if she was truly meant to be irredeemable. That we can defeat her in combat? If we approach her right, there won't be a conflict, just a gank from timestop.

"Evil person gets evil powers for evil reasons" is... not really particularly fitting with the themes of PMMM as I understand them, and even less so with PMAS's themes of "everything can be fixed". Moreover... I don't think it's particularly fitting of reality.

Villainy for the sake of villainy is much, much less common then people who think they're the heroes of their own story.

Was she meant as a "trial run" for the Iowa group, to push us to just act and not give them the benefit of the doubt when they arrive? Because, well... it won't work? We're still obligated to give even them a chance.

Like... if Rionna can't be gotten through to, then of course Sabrina will gem her. But given that the prudent thing to do would be to keep her on ice until things settle down post-WPN, and thus into the epilogue, I'll be left wondering if there was any point to her inclusion in the story in the first place.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Was she meant as a "trial run" for the Iowa group, to push us to just act and not give them the benefit of the doubt when they arrive? Because, well... it won't work? We're still obligated to give even them a chance.
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I wouldn't be surprised, and even if that wasn't the intent it did serve that purpose - we now know that the thread won't be able to handle the Iowa group, not unless it's made so clear that they are a target that the thread doesn't get to debate whether or not they should be stopped and has to skip straight to the "how best to stop them" step.
 
*Iowa group arrives*
Homura: Headshot. Gemshot. Repeat.

*later*
Sabrina: How was your day, Homura?
Homura: Fine. Need a cleanse, though.
Sabrina: Sure. Make sure to stay safe! Iowa might arrive soon.

Or in other words, we're not the only MG with agency.
 
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Vebyast said:
I wouldn't be surprised, and even if that wasn't the intent it did serve that purpose - we now know that the thread won't be able to handle the Iowa group, not unless it's made so clear that they are a target that the thread doesn't get to debate whether or not they should be stopped and has to skip straight to the "how best to stop them" step.
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It's not really about debating "whether or not they should be stopped". The overwhelming majority of the thread agrees that Rionna should stop doing what she does, and I expect even less dissenting opinions when it comes to the Iowa groups raiding,

But... even in the freaking Slaughterhouse 9, in Worm, some of the members of the S9 ended up being redeemable. And Worm as a whole is much more grim then PMAS is. Certainly I don't expect all of Iowa to deserve our mercy - the longtime members that gave the group its direction in particular - but the most I'd be willing to commit to as a blanket statement for all members is pre-emptive gemming, followed by careful discussions/therapy with appropriate safety precautions.
 
I mean have morality debates about her is both the only thing interesting to do right here and not what the qm wants.

Hmm. I feel rude critiquing the planing/writing of a quest has it happens. Like its good to give it the benifit of the doubt even if it feels really weird.

Like the right awnser somewhat by QM fiat is also the very boring one. Err that's a confusing ambigous sentence and what I mean is probably the less natural reading.

Is this just supposed to be an actually difficult problem? No, its probably world building. Ah, firn knows her actions have no justification, but while that obvious from his side of the table (so to speak) it is almost unknowable to us. But that was unintentional. We were meant to know that she was ..unjustified. I need to remember that my this-is-a-horrible-evil-thing sensors work differently than many other peoples.

Or hmm. No I think I was doing my classic thing of overestimating how many layers people are acting/thinking on. Like from the text of the quest with the "this is the decision you should make" almost ooc messages, and the completely occ forbiding of considering how her actions could be justified, she comes off almost comicaly strongly as someone who is ashamed/frustrated at the lengths/horrors she has had to resort too and doesn't want forgiveness or understanding because ultimately she doesn't feel she deserves it.

Now with Firns statements the obvious interpretation is she ..um. hmm. I was going to say sociopathic/selfish evil, but that doesn't make sense either. I mean why tell us what she has, and what she hasn't. Is she trying to make us think she's redeemable..no. that doesn't fit Firn's reactions. I feel like Firn is saying "take her at face value" but..but she doesn't make sense to me at face value. Maybe I am over reading into the OOC stuff?

I've written this big thing and I feel more lost and confused and confused about what I am even supposed to be thinking about right now.

And you know this isn't a fun kind of confusion. I feel like I just don't get what Firn is trying to say. Like I'm in a confusing argument with one of my parents, and I can't even figure out what the topic of the argument is.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Villainy for the sake of villainy is much, much less common then people who think they're the heroes of their own story.
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Again, she might think her reasons are at least fair, but she can tell already that Sabrina disapproves of what she does on a basic level, and so probably immediately went to "I don't have to explain my reasons to you, there's no point if that was too much for you."- which is either her bad for not seeing Sabs's reaction coming, or she's right and she really ought not tell us her reasons, lest she make Sabrina even angrier.

And anyway, not all villains are completely sympathetic. Sometimes bad people show up too.
 
Gadjo said:
And anyway, not all villains are completely sympathetic. Sometimes bad people show up too.
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I suppose, but I think our conduct so far with Rionna was still correct for that scenario. Sabrina should try to reach out to everyone, and she should believe that redemption is possible for anyone. Certainly it won't always work out, as OOC comments from Firn are making it seem likely will be the case here, but striving towards that ideal is still valuable.

If the Souju's arrive, I'd push for us to try to negotiate with them much like we did with Rionna.
 
So, it's looking like Rionna is essentially a villain we're supposed to punch out? I guess that's fine if it means we get to finally move on from this slog of a conversation.

I'd still much rather discuss this course of action with our friends first, and ideally check out Edinburgh in timestop to figure out what we're actually dealing with here.

Redshirt Army said:
Mmm. I find myself questioning what the point of Rionna is, as a character, if she was truly meant to be irredeemable. That we can defeat her in combat? If we approach her right, there won't be a conflict, just a gank from timestop.

"Evil person gets evil powers for evil reasons" is... not really particularly fitting with the themes of PMMM as I understand them, and even less so with PMAS's themes of "everything can be fixed". Moreover... I don't think it's particularly fitting of reality.

Villainy for the sake of villainy is much, much less common then people who think they're the heroes of their own story.

Was she meant as a "trial run" for the Iowa group, to push us to just act and not give them the benefit of the doubt when they arrive? Because, well... it won't work? We're still obligated to give even them a chance.

Like... if Rionna can't be gotten through to, then of course Sabrina will gem her. But given that the prudent thing to do would be to keep her on ice until things settle down post-WPN, and thus into the epilogue, I'll be left wondering if there was any point to her inclusion in the story in the first place.
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Maybe it's meant to be a lesson: "This is what the broader meguca world is like, and people like this exist in it too.". And maybe the real challenge isn't dealing with Rionna herself, but with the broader consequences of shanking her, though I admit that might be wishful thinking on my part. Like you say, it's kind of... pointless, if we take her down and just go back to business as usual.
 
Aranfan said:
We promised Mami to kill them tho.
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No, we didn't.

Here's the relevant update section:

Firnagzen said:
Mami's grip tightens on your arm, and you smile at her. "Forewarned is forearmed," you tell her, reassuring and warm. "She won't get me."

Mami swallows, looking up at you. "Beat her into the ground," she whispers. "That- they sound like monstrous people. If they come here, we'll crush them."

"Yeah!" Kirika agrees, pumping her fist. "Kick their asses... Hm. Kick their ass? They only have one, after all."

"I like to think the best of people, but they do it knowing what Soul Gems are. It's not exactly excusable," you say.
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DB_Explorer said:
Thought - I think we should try to get something out of this meeting even if we get metaphorically burned becuase any info we get on clear seeds etc could help with dewitching. In my opinion making tea with a figurative devil is worth it if it advances that cause - so long as we remember who/what we are dealing with.
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At the worst case we kill/gem Riona* and that is getting something already from this metting.

* I presume if we kill/gem Riona it's because it's neccessary

SaltyWaffles said:
Lastly, Rionna's combination of stubborn unwillingness to even entertain the idea that Sabrina could actually work with her to solve her personal problem (while also being insistent on the idea that having Sabrina's soul--and thus, her powers--would be helpful for her personal problem) and her refusal to give any explanation as to what her problem is makes finding any kind of compromise an exercise in frustration and blind luck. Couple that with her unlikeability, arrogance, and disdain for communication in general, and this whole mess seems to have been tailor-made to bring this quest to a grinding halt.
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Thanks to put in words why I dislike the current state of the quest.

Gadjo said:
It might make sense if she wants something she knows is so morally grey/black that Sabrina would never agree, I think.
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But Sabrina's morality stance isn't known, and as far as Riona knew before coming to Mitakihara, we are a "false"* grief manipulator who only put grief into other people's souls.

Nolrai said:
Now with Firns statements the obvious interpretation is she ..um. hmm. I was going to say sociopathic/selfish evil, but that doesn't make sense either. I mean why tell us what she has, and what she hasn't. Is she trying to make us think she's redeemable..no. that doesn't fit Firn's reactions. I feel like Firn is saying "take her at face value" but..but she doesn't make sense to me at face value. Maybe I am over reading into the OOC stuff?

I've written this big thing and I feel more lost and confused and confused about what I am even supposed to be thinking about right now.

And you know this isn't a fun kind of confusion. I feel like I just don't get what Firn is trying to say. Like I'm in a confusing argument with one of my parents, and I can't even figure out what the topic of the argument is.
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Tl;dr: Riona's actions aren't excusable.

Riona may be redeemable, Riona may not be redeemable (Firn hasn't confirmed one way or the other so feel free to make your choice) but the one thing Riona isn't is excusable.
 
Guys we can't excuse Rionna's actions but we can try to redeem her. We just have to acknowledge the crimes she did - we can't handwave what she did. We can use circumstances to explain why we don't gem her though.
 
I really don't know what we should do with this.

Beside imprison her, free her or gem her what are we supposed to do?

Edit : If we redeem her i really hope we could decided on next update, anything further and i fear our conviction will wavered
 
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I keep imagining this as a court of law. We are judge and jury. Also prosecutor and defense attorney. Maybe executioner too? We hold Rionna's fate in our hands, our evidence is each story post and our own biases and insights.

Then God comes down in a choir of angels, and reveals his great wisdom.

G: "yeah, she's totally guilty."

Prosecution: "Hah! Knew it! Give her the death penalty!"

Defense: "uh... Ok, but maybe--

G: "No buts. She's totally 100% guilty. I made her, I should know."

Defense: "Ok. She's guilty. But... "

G: "AHEM."

Defense: "I mean... Uh... The Death penalty is a bit extreme, right?"

Prosecution: "Major problem with death penalty is chance of killing innocents. She's guilty. Ergo, execution."

Defense: "But-"

G: "NO BUTS."



How far off-base am I in seeing this? Defending Rionna, even just to the extent of trying to avoid killing her, is kinda really hard right now, right?

*Note: Gemming is being treated the same as killing in this post for simplicity and brevity*

P.S. I tried and failed to stay away. I'm sorry.
 
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If God wanted us to kill Scotsguca with no debate and no guilt, God'd've made her a puppykicker who flirts with Mami.
 
Filraen said:
Sabrina already tried and Riona doesn't want to be redeemed.
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I'd be more verbose if I wasn't on my phone - meant to also add we can choose to work with her for our own agenda. The thing is we just can't justify her actions. If this was court she would be guilt, we just have to decide the sentence.
 
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