Lord Chungus
God of Nutella
- Location
- The Hague (it’s where all the cool people are)
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Gadjo
Doka
I'm not worried about her receiving it instead, I'm worried about her taking that as sign to attack. I think we should use our first telepathy to call for timestop reinforcements.
We don't even need telepathy for that: we can ask Mami via grief (we left some Grief with Mami we can still control in spite of being on the other side of the isolation barrier)
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@Firnagzen
Like, I think there's a decent chance we could reach some kind of breakthrough with Rionna if we kept at it for a dozen updates in a row. But no one likes Rionna as a character, and people are already running out of patience with this whole situation. Bogging down the quest like that would be a disaster. If we were there in real time, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but when you have a difficult conversation broken up into little chunks over the course of months, it's absolutely awful. This thing kind of happened with Oriko, too. Interrogating her was fatiguing and frustrating in the extreme. But if you read the whole thing in one go, it feels like we ran out of patience too quickly. That's a limitation of the medium: you can't drag things out, because then the pacing grinds to a halt and everyone gets frustrated and fatigued with the quest.
So characters that stonewall and refuse to communicate are really, really bad when there aren't clear alternative approaches available. Even worse is adding "extremely difficult to get to the bottom of the conflict" on top of that. Remember, quest pacing is slow as all hell when you proceed in real time (day by day). Things that are frustrating but tolerable IRL are insufferable and excruciating in quest.
Like, I think there's a decent chance we could reach some kind of breakthrough with Rionna if we kept at it for a dozen updates in a row. But no one likes Rionna as a character, and people are already running out of patience with this whole situation. Bogging down the quest like that would be a disaster. If we were there in real time, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but when you have a difficult conversation broken up into little chunks over the course of months, it's absolutely awful. This thing kind of happened with Oriko, too. Interrogating her was fatiguing and frustrating in the extreme. But if you read the whole thing in one go, it feels like we ran out of patience too quickly. That's a limitation of the medium: you can't drag things out, because then the pacing grinds to a halt and everyone gets frustrated and fatigued with the quest.
So characters that stonewall and refuse to communicate are really, really bad when there aren't clear alternative approaches available. Even worse is adding "extremely difficult to get to the bottom of the conflict" on top of that. Remember, quest pacing is slow as all hell when you proceed in real time (day by day). Things that are frustrating but tolerable IRL are insufferable and excruciating in quest.
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I may be in the minority here, but I would like to say that I don't agree with this. I am willing to put in the time and posts to make this work if need be, and the majority of my frustration comes from other people in the thread deciding that they want to give up and just take a faster way out.
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Reasons are not, or at least need not qualify as, excuses. In this case, we have been told that they do not and must not. I'd like to dig into Riona's reasons for what she does and why she might think her actions are justified, in order to better figure out how best to approach and handle her. This entails discussing her reasoning in a manner that may appear as though we are searching for hypothetical 'excuses' that could be used to absolve her or mitigate her actions, and I'm concerned about how meaningfully we can differentiate between the two discussions, when one has been contraindicated while the other is nearly necessary if we want to analyze Riona any further than "gem/shoot her now, and how best to do so".
Pursuant to this last part, two things. The first: I'm not convinced we've pressed this conversation in-character enough to decide we can't get further information or concessions out of Riona about her activities. Through Riona, Firn has told us in-character that
Strongly implying that there is still something to press. (Even leaving aside our various analyses of Riona's behaviour and what it may or may not indicate about what she's trying to communicate and what Firn is trying to communicate about her.) Though of course further clarification on the matter will appear when Firn drops the next update. Nevertheless, going off a stop like that I am very reluctant to decide here and now that we'll be dropping further negotiation attempts in favor of planning our angle of attack.
Secondly, and paraphrasing a thought I had during the threadlock (and thanks, SaltyWaffles, for providing a good springing off point for me here to comment on):
Speaking as one of those people who are running out of patience with this whole situation (and even with peeking into the thread and reading about this whole situation), and speaking as one of those people feeling the temptation to just find a nice convenient way to only-partially-metaphorically shoot Riona in the face for the trouble, I still find it concerning that people might actually vote that way. Or let it bleed too far into the tone of the thread as Sabrina's background chatter as serious propositions. Like. As much as this whole run around is a mess and is being a bear to deal with, it feels untrue to both the "this is how Sabrina has been up to now and we should hold to that" and the "this is a way we want Sabrina to change in response to changes in how the thread feels it's best to deal with this" positions, to vote for Sabrina to aggress at Riona out of being fed up with dealing with her shit. There's plenty of reasons that people can absolutely be outraged or calculated in their response and decide that it's best to vote to gem her now and ask further questions later, and thus shape Sabrina's character that way- but the idea of doing so in order to avoid having to deal with the situation further strikes me as really weird.
I dunno. For all that most of that was written mid-threadlock, my concerns there haven't changed too much.
That's all I've really got, probably until the next update.
Uh, also, when we're through here, can we reconnoiter the fuck out of Iowa before they show up so we can make sure we have applicable and useful information? Like, everything from calling in a favor from techguca, to possibly literally getting Sayaka to send her bird-watcher-minions, or even doing a fly-by at satellite level from the air? And then also establish short signals and coded communication with at least Homura, and probably Mami, for when we have limited communication from within a privacy sphere? Because there are situations we should walk into more prepared than we have been, and this is an exemplar of why.
Pursuant to this last part, two things. The first: I'm not convinced we've pressed this conversation in-character enough to decide we can't get further information or concessions out of Riona about her activities. Through Riona, Firn has told us in-character that
Strongly implying that there is still something to press. (Even leaving aside our various analyses of Riona's behaviour and what it may or may not indicate about what she's trying to communicate and what Firn is trying to communicate about her.) Though of course further clarification on the matter will appear when Firn drops the next update. Nevertheless, going off a stop like that I am very reluctant to decide here and now that we'll be dropping further negotiation attempts in favor of planning our angle of attack.
Secondly, and paraphrasing a thought I had during the threadlock (and thanks, SaltyWaffles, for providing a good springing off point for me here to comment on):
Speaking as one of those people who are running out of patience with this whole situation (and even with peeking into the thread and reading about this whole situation), and speaking as one of those people feeling the temptation to just find a nice convenient way to only-partially-metaphorically shoot Riona in the face for the trouble, I still find it concerning that people might actually vote that way. Or let it bleed too far into the tone of the thread as Sabrina's background chatter as serious propositions. Like. As much as this whole run around is a mess and is being a bear to deal with, it feels untrue to both the "this is how Sabrina has been up to now and we should hold to that" and the "this is a way we want Sabrina to change in response to changes in how the thread feels it's best to deal with this" positions, to vote for Sabrina to aggress at Riona out of being fed up with dealing with her shit. There's plenty of reasons that people can absolutely be outraged or calculated in their response and decide that it's best to vote to gem her now and ask further questions later, and thus shape Sabrina's character that way- but the idea of doing so in order to avoid having to deal with the situation further strikes me as really weird.
I dunno. For all that most of that was written mid-threadlock, my concerns there haven't changed too much.
That's all I've really got, probably until the next update.
Uh, also, when we're through here, can we reconnoiter the fuck out of Iowa before they show up so we can make sure we have applicable and useful information? Like, everything from calling in a favor from techguca, to possibly literally getting Sayaka to send her bird-watcher-minions, or even doing a fly-by at satellite level from the air? And then also establish short signals and coded communication with at least Homura, and probably Mami, for when we have limited communication from within a privacy sphere? Because there are situations we should walk into more prepared than we have been, and this is an exemplar of why.
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Seriously, how can anyone even consider gemming/killing Rionna?
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[Jk] Hug Rionna untill she spills everything.
-[jk] Keep your gem behind you in a grief shield
-[jk] Keep your gem behind you in a grief shield
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I mean, to be fair, she's one of the hardest Meguca for us to stop if she doesn't want to play ball, otherwise, and we have reason to believe she might kill Sayaka today.
Although that's still an argument for just gemming her, which is significantly less drastic than killing her.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Doing things to people for no other reason than precog is exactly what we judged Oriko for.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
For some reason I just pictured Oriko, if she still had visions, seeing all of this and pleading with Homura or Sayaka to let her go to help Sabrina.
Homura would be unmoved, Sayaka might though.
Homura would be unmoved, Sayaka might though.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Mmm. Yeah. This is pretty much exactly why I feel like Rionna having always been a monster, or having been designed as irredeemable, is "against the themes of PMAS", as I've said before.
"We have to freezer her, or the people she kills are on our heads" is basically the definition of Hard Girls Making Hard Decisions.
(To be fair, so is "I have to kill Mami before she kills more of my friends", so it's not like the idea was absent from PMMM canon. But not everything could be fixed, there.)
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I mean, I agree, but the guy was asking how anyone could even consider it.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Fair enough.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
[Q] Last resort plan: Threaten Riona with hugs and friendship.
-[Q] "You either stop out of your own volition of I'm gonna hug and friend you so hard, you're gonna feel sorry and regret and feelings!"
*Gasp*
"Not the feelings! You monster!"
Gadjo
Doka
I wouldn't want to take her down because of precog- she's Done plenty to warrant taking down already. Saying that she might kill our friends rather reveals the point: how would we feel if those were our loved ones bound to her service in undeath, doomed to use their very souls to aid the girl who killed them?
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
How?
We can take her out in literal seconds if needs must. She's made it clear that she's reluctant to try and take our soul and while I'm certain that in part that's because she feels we don't deserve it, I'm also certain that she's fairly convinced she would have a fight on her hands to pull it off, meaning that it would take her time to actually accomplish it.
If it takes her time to soulrip us, I can promise you it will take us less time to gem/kill her in response to the attempt.
The only way she becomes a threat is if she is permitted to wander around without oversight. Then she might get someone else before we can get to her.
But if she decides to try and get us? She's done for. It won't even be a fight.
Rionna is, to my comprehension, a complete non-threat to Sabrina herself.
- Location
- Estonia
Yeah, the two aspects of the Rionna issue (morality + communication) could have each made fine challenges individually, but combined, they crossed the streams into a train wreck.
If Rionna had been a better, more amicable communicator, had actually tried to woo us to her side (while not hiding the darker aspects of her power, that would have come up later anyway, if we actually started cooperating), had tried to downplay/excuse her actions, not using them for shock value and, most importantly, presented us with a clear goal of what she wants and what we would get out of it, then it would have been a morality puzzle. The temptation would have been to go with the "greater good" and the challenge would have been to logically reason her into believing there can be a better way.
If her powers worked differently without such moral issues, and Rionna had just been the most cynical and grumpiest grumpy who ever grumpied, then the challenge would have been the social and emotional one, to get her out of her shell enough to trust us.
But when you combine the two, then the second gets in the way of the first, and when some people try to focus on the second issue, by making compromises on the first, then people focusing on the first issue will understandably get upset, then the targets of their ire will equally understandably get defensive and it escalates so on.
Basically, having to first succeed on an emotional social roll, to be able to make a reasoning persuasion roll, all in the context where all the rolls are also potentially morally controversial (adding a third, meta issue of keeping the order in the thread), is just too difficult of a combination.
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Not if she's unconscious/gemmed.
And yes, I know that people are worried about her being able to operate as a gem alone but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that she is actually capable of this based on her powers, and even if she was theoretically capable of it, I highly doubt it's something she's ever actually attempted.
Again. Non-Threat to us.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
If killing her is a last resort, Gemming her is second last, and as I've said. I refuse to simply give up and choose 'gem her' just because I'm getting tired or something.
It's hard yeah, but it's worth doing.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
I can see this as not actually a joke. We are having trouble getting her to meet us in discussion, the whole time. Breaking her stance, her overbearing self-confidence, this is one way to be aggressive in response to her behavior. We might even wind up driving her into a corner, though going that far would be counter-productive.
Would it be worth it to leave her unsure of herself? When her life is being objectified, is she able to get as good as she gives?
How would we make the next move after that?
In general we have may lesser options to switch to. And we have one special weakness to exploit: Rionna's ability.
What does the hero do when the adversary "controls all the information?" Feed true, but useless and disabling information to her. That soul vision thing she is using, who wants to bet she trusts that over conversational ability and street smarts? Of course her lie detector is perfect! Thus we have a narrow gate to set her up. Any time we tell the truth, she knows that. Any time we don't attack her, she knows that. If her magical senses say so, she is almost forced to trust the input, for lack of training in other options. This means we can peacefully tell her a truth, and she gets a bad saving throw to disbelieve it. It isn't much, but it could be an advantage.
Gadjo
Doka
I mostly want to gem her because she doesn't seem willing to work with us in the slightest, not even to her own ends. No point in delaying the inevitable, since I'm not willing to let her leave without at least an agreement to release them conditional on something. even that's dicey, since she may try to sneak attack us later out of resentment, or to get out of her end of the deal.