I disliked Riona before this update and what she just admitted to is absolutely monstrous and inexcusable, but attacking her while we're still talking just rubs me the wrong way. On the other hand she's probably one of the most dangerou and reprehensibles people we've met so far and right now would be a pretty good chance to deal with her.
*Catching up. Reading update and discussion so excuse my stream of conscious reaction and emotional shifts*
I'm sorry, did Riona just try to fucking show off her soul slaves? WHAT?
Guys, what the fuck. We can't accept this. This is literally the most horrifically evil thing we've ever seen besides witching people out on purpose.
I seriously can't believe some of you are trying to FUCKING EXCUSE THIS, though I'm sympathetic to the party trying to redeem her.
Like, I understand working with her and trying to ask her to stop but some of you are buying her reasoning at face value and she's quite obviously bullshitting us to justify what she's doing? She OBVIOUSLY doesn't fucking care about only doing it to people who deserve it because she made a crack about doing it to us to GET OUR POWER.
Fuck this bitch. She's a monster and we can't trust her not to turn on us because she's literally been bragging about it, and we have no real way to protect ourselves from her except the privacy field. Rock her, have Sayaka copy her power if she steps out of line, she's way too dangerous.
Are you people at all even thinking about how Mami will react to this? If Mami learns we're effectively condoning this because we need Riona for research? Mami's morality cannot fucking condone this, and we can't even explain why we need it without fucking Witchbombing her. Like holy shit props to @Kaizuki for joking about it but I actually did vomit.
@Gadjo and @Godwinson are 100% exactly right about her morality thus far, but I also believe she can be redeemed. @BlackoutSampler has probably made the most reasonable post for not gemming her immediately, and that plus Nadia's testimony is the only reason I'm even considering not rocking her immediately. I'm not okay with gemsploding her under any circumstances if we can contain her. @Akasha also made a really, really great post. @Edelhart 's post is also a likely look into Riona's psychology.
However, she uses her power on non-meguca. There's absolutely NO WAY IN HELL to justify that. Not even self-defense or helping people.
For now, I'm comfortable with Onmur's current vote, but failing that I'm okay with Godwinson's course of action if she at all pulls some shit. Guys, I'm the guy who let Hijiri get away, probably was one of the hardest arguers for Oriko's freedom, and am basically one of the biggest bleeding heart "Never do nuffin morally gray" people in the thread and this is my line. The fact that she uses this on normal people and DOESN'T CARE is the worst thing Sabrina has ever encountered.
I dare say it's possibly worse than Kyubey because he doesn't have the empathy to understand how monstrous he actually is.
But I'm willing to give her a chance. One. She deserves one but she's too dangerous to tolerate if she does shit under our watch.
For everyone freaking out, however? I will bet my pompadour that Riona cannot take our soul, for the same reason Sayaka can't copy our power.
[x] Onmur
-[x] If Riona tries to attack, go to Godwinson's vote IMMEDIATELY.
"Ach," she says, waving a careless hand at you. "Don't worry about it. It's not good people I do it to. Most of them are already murderers by the time I get to 'em, so they are. Last one had her and her posse livin' high on the backs of a good couple score Witches and all."
Man, just look at all this moral outrage flying around
[X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
Yeah, I'm one of those "scumbags" Godwinson was talking about 10 pages ago who really doesn't have a problem with this
People were extremely fast to jump to calling this "slavery", and i kinda don't see it. And heck, even if she is imprisoning actual souls to use as tools, this is hardly the worst thing we've ever come across, and we've ended up rehabilitating or condoning everything that's come before, what makes this so special that we must kill or gem her right now?
Heck, she's kinda the solution to our long-term imprisonment problem. That's a good thing right?
Also, she's said that she only does this to people who have crossed a line in her eyes. Do you just not believe her? Do you doubt her judgement? Is there any real difference between her using this power and Sayaka using it?
I'm sorry guys, i guess my conception of what constitutes "evil" is just massively different from yours
Yeah there's no indication she only targets malicious false grief cleansers. She might target ignorant, desperate or even false grief cleansers who don't use their powers willy nilly. That would definitely count as going after innocents.
*Catching up. Reading update and discussion so excuse my stream of conscious reaction and emotional shifts*
I'm sorry, did Riona just try to fucking show off her soul slaves? WHAT?
Guys, what the fuck. We can't accept this. This is literally the most horrifically evil thing we've ever seen besides witching people out on purpose.
I seriously can't believe some of you are trying to FUCKING EXCUSE THIS, though I'm sympathetic to the party trying to redeem her.
Like, I understand working with her and trying to ask her to stop but some of you are buying her reasoning at face value and she's quite obviously bullshitting us to justify what she's doing? She OBVIOUSLY doesn't fucking care about only doing it to people who deserve it because she made a crack about doing it to us to GET OUR POWER.
Fuck this bitch. She's a monster and we can't trust her not to turn on us because she's literally been bragging about it, and we have no real way to protect ourselves from her except the privacy field. Rock her, have Sayaka copy her power if she steps out of line, she's way too dangerous.
Are you people at all even thinking about how Mami will react to this? If Mami learns we're effectively condoning this because we need Riona for research? Mami's morality cannot fucking condone this, and we can't even explain why we need it without fucking Witchbombing her. Like holy shit props to @Kaizuki for joking about it but I actually did vomit.
@Gadjo and @Godwinson are 100% exactly right about her morality thus far, but I also believe she can be redeemed. @BlackoutSampler has probably made the most reasonable post for not gemming her immediately, and that plus Nadia's testimony is the only reason I'm even considering not rocking her immediately. I'm not okay with gemsploding her under any circumstances if we can contain her. @Akasha also made a really, really great post. @Edelhart 's post is also a likely look into Riona's psychology.
However, she uses her power on non-meguca. There's absolutely NO WAY IN HELL to justify that. Not even self-defense or helping people.
For now, I'm comfortable with Onmur's current vote, but failing that I'm okay with Godwinson's course of action if she at all pulls some shit. Guys, I'm the guy who let Hijiri get away, probably was one of the hardest arguers for Oriko's freedom, and am basically one of the biggest bleeding heart "Never do nuffin morally gray" people in the thread and this is my line. The fact that she uses this on normal people and DOESN'T CARE is the worst thing Sabrina has ever encountered.
I dare say it's possibly worse than Kyubey because he doesn't have the empathy to understand how monstrous he actually is.
But I'm willing to give her a chance. One. She deserves one but she's too dangerous to tolerate if she does shit under our watch.
For everyone freaking out, however? I will bet my pompadour that Riona cannot take our soul, for the same reason Sayaka can't copy our power.
[x] Onmur
-[x] If Riona tries to attack, go to Godwinson's vote IMMEDIATELY.
For what it's worth, if Riona doesn't agree to not using her powers evilly, I think we can, at least most of us, agree she needs to be stopped forcefully.
Secretly texting Homu, and using Grief to let Mami know, and getting Homu to timestop and bring Sayaka/Kirika (problems either way) and blast Riona with Antimagic from timestop sounds like a good start if Riona turns out to be really evil.
I don't think we can judge that yet.
As long as Riona doesn't turn aggressive, I think we're continuing this conversation and in the end, demanding she stops taking souls and works towards restoring them. That's our line in the sand, that needs to stop.
She might not be able to restore the souls immediately. Likely, that would take a lot of work and time, but if she agrees to do it, and to stop taking souls (this one yes, immediately)... then we need to work together.
I'd just like to keep her close. Like, close enough we can know if she tries to use her powers badly again.
... Are we gonna lose sleep over this? Or maybe set some Sayaklone watchers?
So, while I'm not sure where I stand personally, I think there needs to be a hardass vote: To call it a loss and not work with Rionna.
Seeing as I'm perfectly happy not working with her should it come to that, and I don't want that vote to be a vote to become like her, I'm going to make it myself. Or as close as my bleeding heart can manage.
Commentary here, commentary-less version in spoilers.
[X] Take a moment to calm down.
-[X] Tell Rionna you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
-[X] Ask Riona to hear you out.
The current start is a good one no matter the course.
[X] Be ready to call Homura for timestop through Mami in case she gets violent. First order: Make sure Mami is out of the building.
[X] You find her actions horrifying. Enough said.
-[X] You understand that it may have been necessary or justified... but you can't abide that.
-[X] There isn't going to be a fight, unless she starts it, but you can't work with her.
Do not pay her back in kind.
[X] If she wants cleansing? You're willing to pay her in that first stop what she's doing, and then to to release or restore her souls. If they're murderers or people who needed to be stopped? You'll figure something out. If she has another price? Fine. But you can't abide this kind of slavery to continue. Even outright death is better.
I'm not sure if this is the right answer for this hardass vote or not, but this is what I can come up with. Talk to me if you have a better idea for how to stop her under this framework.
And yes, I'm aware this first offer is much more hardball than giving her a clear seed for this.
[X] You can still answer her questions.
See below for reasoning.
[X] Eventually, if the world is left to its own devices, a witch will be born that is strong enough to consume all humanity. Possibly far stronger. As far as Kyuubey is concerned, that witch being born is inevitable and simply a matter of time. He chooses to continue contracting magical girls anyways.
-[X] You believe that you were, quite literally, created to stop that. Perhaps someone very clever did so by taking that power and ensuring it became you, instead of that witch, or perhaps something else entirely happened, but much of what you're doing is to ensure that end does not, and cannot, happen.
I'm doing the best I can to ensure this doesn't bring up too much information, but ultimately... fuck it, I'm inclined to give her the horrifying specter of the magical apocalypse to chew on. I'd like a way to tie it into what she's doing, but this will do.
Again, as with the offer to release her souls I can be talked out of it, but this is as to why I'm answering her... see my last point.
-[X] Of course, how you were made rather changes the precautions you will need to take so: Ask what she sees in you.
And the actual reason for answer her questions: I'm including this much, because of the longstanding theory that Feathers may be us. If it is, our continued ignorance puts everyone around us in danger. Seeing as no other courses that might learn what we are, have gained traction, this is my choice.
Bloated, over-long but it gets to what I'm intending, I think.
[X] Take a moment to calm down.
-[X] Tell Rionna you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
-[X] Ask Riona to hear you out.
[X] Be ready to call Homura for timestop through Mami in case she gets violent. First order: Protect Mami from being targeted to get to you.
[X] You find her actions horrifying. Enough said.
-[X] You understand that it may have been necessary or justified... but you can't abide that.
-[X] There isn't going to be a fight, unless she starts it, but you can't work with her.
[X] If she wants cleansing? You're willing to pay her in that first stop what she's doing, and then to to release or restore her souls. If they're murderers or people who needed to be stopped? You'll figure something out. If she has another price? Fine. But you can't abide this kind of slavery to continue. Even outright death is better.
[X] You can still answer her questions.
[X] Eventually, if the world is left to its own devices, a witch will be born that is strong enough to consume all humanity. Possibly far stronger. As far as Kyuubey is concerned, that witch being born is inevitable and simply a matter of time. He chooses to continue contracting magical girls anyways.
-[X] You believe that you were, quite literally, created to stop that. Perhaps someone very clever did so by taking that power and ensuring it became you, instead of that witch, or perhaps something else entirely happened, but much of what you're doing is to ensure that end does not, and cannot, happen.
-[X] Of course, how you were made rather changes the precautions you will need to take so: Ask what she sees in you.
Yeah, I'm one of those "scumbags" Godwinson was talking about 10 pages ago who really doesn't have a problem with this
People were extremely fast to jump to calling this "slavery", and i kinda don't see it. And heck, even if she is imprisoning actual souls to use as tools, this is hardly the worst thing we've ever come across, and we've ended up rehabilitating or condoning everything that's come before, what makes this so special that we must kill or gem her right now?
Heck, she's kinda the solution to our long-term imprisonment problem. That's a good thing right?
Also, she's said that she only does this to people who have crossed a line in her eyes. Do you just not believe her? Do you doubt her judgement? Is there any real difference between her using this power and Sayaka using it?
I'm sorry guys, i guess my conception of what constitutes "evil" is just massively different from yours
I don't doubt her judgement, per se, I just resent it was done solely by her without anything resembling fair procedure. But that's my political stance on "taking judgement in your own hands" leaking through.
About enslaving souls. Yes, it is decidedly mild in light of the other shit happening daily in Puella Magi Meguca Magica. That doesn't make it okay in my eyes, and yes, I would like her to please stop.
Also, the thing about long-term imprisonment that it doesn't resolve, in my opinion, is potential for rehabilitation.
I mean, if you don't get a life sentence ( that basically means society largely gave up on you reforming or considers your crimes abominable enough to warrant it and/or will not administer death sentence for whatever reason ), then prison needs to correct your behavior so you won't do it again.
How it works out in real world is not as relevant for us as you'd think. Firstly, we supposedly have a goddess on our side. Secondly, given that Meguca are immortal if they want to, we have a lot of time on our hands to try and reform them.
[x] Onmur
-[x] If Riona tries to attack or leave the privacy sphere, go to Godwinson's vote IMMEDIATELY.
-[x] Use grief to make Mami leave Riona's line of sight/the room, and to get ready to ask for Time Stop as soon as she sees Riona leave the sphere without you.
[x] Onmur
-[x] If Riona tries to attack or leave the privacy sphere, go to Godwinson's vote IMMEDIATELY.
-[x] Use grief to make Mami leave Riona's line of sight/the room, and to get ready to ask for Time Stop as soon as she sees Riona leave the sphere without you.
Specially the part about making Mami leave. How's Riona going to take that? This girl, who's protective of her GF, is telling her to leave after Riona said some awful things.
That's a rather threatening move. Riona saw how much it affected Mami to stay out of this discussion.
Also, Mami will probably want to stay and protect us, I'm not sure she'll listen if we tell her to go away.
And... if it comes down to is, we can have Homu extract Mami in less than a second.
I think we should hold off on any moves that might look threatening right now.
Maybe we can secretly text Homura, and tell her that if we signal her, to immediately timestop and grab Sayaka/Kirika and blast Riona with AntiMagic from timestop ASAP.
But not have her bring either here yet. We don't know whether Riona will feel that.
Yeah there's no indication she only targets malicious false grief cleansers. She might target ignorant, desperate or even false grief cleansers who don't use their powers willy nilly. That would definitely count as going after innocents.
That's because there's no indication of anything at all except her word. And really, if everyone is so convinced that she's evil, why is everyone also insisting on taking her words at face value. She could be remorseless, or she could be putting it all on the table, and its just her really abrasive personality that shining through. We don't know. In fact, we don't even have a scale, it could be 10 or 100, but if we jump to the worst conclusions we can one up our own paranoia all day long until we wind up at the Cursed grail "Establishing world piece by killing everyone but ourselves and Mami."
I, for one, kind of doubt it. First off, she's the first magical girl with a power comparable to ours in scale and power. It might end up being a 404 power not found to Sayaka just like ours is (remember, we don't know why Sayaka can't copy our power, we only have guesses). Two, if we Gem Riona, there's no guarantee she won't be able to act to some degree. Having Sayaka then touch her gem is a recipe to getting our best friend soul jacked.
Hmm. I think we don't need to worry about Riona running away. If she can't leave peacefully, she'll fight. Remember, this is Mitakihara, half a world away from her homeground.
I don't think someone in Tokyo owes her quite so many favors they will be willing to shelter her from Sabrinahammer, the Grief Angel of Wrath.
( I just know someone would call us something like that. I knooow. )
So yeah, our only worry after unsuccessful negotiations will probably be striking first...
Agreed, here. My top priority here is getting those souls released and preventing it from happening again, preferably without collateral damage. If she refuses to do that, I'm all for degemming her.
I believe we're working with the assumption that Riona can continue to function while a Soul Gem. If any meguca can do it, it's her. That in turn means that there's a good chance she can soulkill Sayaka if she touches her gem and brings her into Timestop. The solution is probably to have Kirika around as well to put antimagic over Riona's soul gem while Sayaka copies her.
EDIT: Also, if negotations succeed and she agrees to let her soulslaves go, we'll need some way of verifying that she's actually done so. Anyone got any ideas? I've heard ideas of a grief lie detector...
[X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
Eh. Going Old Testament on someone taking justice into their own hands by taking justice into our own hands seems like a poor decision. And she admitted it. So keep going. And listening. In any case her power may well prove to be invaluable to reversing witches.
And if she is in fact as horrible as her power makes her seem a fight here would suck.
does anyone have an actual plan in place for dealing with them?
and let's not forget, even if we assume some are innocent, there's murderers and worse in there, are you going to take the time to sort the wheat from the chaff?
or are you just going to dump them all back into the wild and hope for the best?
Specially the part about making Mami leave. How's Riona going to take that? This girl, who's protective of her GF, is telling her to leave after Riona said some awful things.
That's a rather threatening move. Riona saw how much it affected Mami to stay out of this discussion.
Also, Mami will probably want to stay and protect us, I'm not sure she'll listen if we tell her to go away.
And... if it comes down to is, we can have Homu extract Mami in less than a second.
I think we should hold off on any moves that might look threatening right now.
Maybe we can secretly text Homura, and tell her that if we signal her, to immediately timestop and grab Sayaka/Kirika and blast Riona with AntiMagic from timestop ASAP.
But not have her bring either here yet. We don't know whether Riona will feel that.
[x] Onmur
-[x] If Riona tries to attack or leave the privacy sphere, go to Godwinson's vote IMMEDIATELY.
-[x] Grief-whisper Mami to contact Homura. Tell her that when you signal, or if Riona leaves the Privacy Sphere without you, to Timestop, grab Sayaka, and blast Riona with Antimagic.
does anyone have an actual plan in place for dealing with them?
and let's not forget, even if we assume some are innocent, there's murderers and worse in there, are you going to take the time to sort the wheat from the chaff?
or are you just going to dump them all back into the wild and hope for the best?
The souls she stole includes, by her own words, ordinary fucking humans. Those people should be in jail, not fucking braindead with their souls enslaved. Why the fuck would she even fucking DO that?
[x] Communicate to Mami via grief: potential foe, high threat, move away, timestop on signal. Arrange some sort of simple, clear and fast signal using grief.
[x] Calmly ask what that makes her. How many people has she done this to, and under what circumstances. We'll listen.
[x] She's keeping people as slaves. We wanted to work with her, so so much. We want to make a world where the things she's seen don't happen to anyone.
[x] What's done is done, but she can stop now if she chooses to. Could she let the shades go?
[x] Make her an offer- Clear Seeds, money, whatever. Bluntly state we want to help her get what she wants that doesn't involve harming others. Will she stop?
[x] If she tries to leave the bubble or otherwise stop talking without agreeing to let the souls she's enslaved go:
-[x] If possible, signal for timestop and bodykill her as quickly as possible.
--[x] Otherwise, bodykill her as quickly as possible.
If she's not willing to let these souls go, then we can, should, and will simply have Sayaka copy her power from her gem and she can do it. If Rionna is willing to reform then we owe her that single chance, otherwise, to be quite frank, one less monster in the world.
