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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Possible edit, even though I don't think it's needed yet:

(While 'editing'... I'm really afraid of telling Mami that she might need to leave. Like, if shit goes down, it might, might be necessary to protect her. Maybe. If shit doesn't go down, this will be a warhammer to her psyche.)

(Also, I think Anti Magic Blast from timestop conflicts with keeping Riona's Gem isolated. How to solve this?)

[] Precautions:
-[] Secretly text Homura: Create a signal; if you signal her, she's to grab Sayaka/Kirika and antimagic Riona from timestop ASAP. Update her.
-[] Subtly warn Mami and use non-Witchy Grief to speak directly on her ear, such that Riona and her kept Souls can't hear. Update her. Remain hopeful.
-[] If Riona makes any threatening moves, signal Homura and Gem Riona with extreme prejudice. Body expendable. Then keep Riona's Gem isolated.

[] Take a moment to calm down.
-[] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
-[] Ask her to hear you out.

[] You find her claims horrifying, for moral and practical reasons.
-[] You understand her actions might have felt justified before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
-[] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
--[] Standards, justice, society.
--[] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
--[] De-Witching.

[] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
-[] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Taking people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop, and restore or release the Souls she's taken.
--[] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
--[] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that. A Clear Seed, whatever better way of cleansing you can come up with in the future.

[] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
-[] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
 
As a note? "The souls will be damned forever if we rock Riona" is bullshit reasoning.

Even assuming Sayaka's copying the power can't just steal back the souls and free them, we simply need to have Sayaka steal Riona's soul, order it to free everybody, and then put it back.
 
AuraTwilight said:
As a note? "The souls will be damned forever if we rock Riona" is bullshit reasoning.

Even assuming Sayaka's copying the power can't just steal back the souls and free them, we simply need to have Sayaka steal Riona's soul, order it to free everybody, and then put it back.
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Or, absolute worst case, blast them with enough antimagic to send them to Madokami.
 
So, out of curiosity, how do you guys expect to be able to enforce this deal you're proposing? She lives on the other side of the world.
 
By the way, even if we try and take all the precautions possible, I doubt taking Riona down would be easy.

The only thing we really know about Riona is that she can hold a city all by herself and is confident enough to leave it alone and travel accross the world.

Even if we try to gank her, I wouldn't be surprised if she no-sells us and we just started a fight.
 
Violation of Rule 3 - Repeated incivility
Honestly you guys sure are getting your morality boners hard arnt you?
Im going to leave and hope you dont kill this girl for being being Satan or something.
 
AuraTwilight said:
The souls she stole includes, by her own words, ordinary fucking humans. Those people should be in jail, not fucking braindead with their souls enslaved. Why the fuck would she even fucking DO that?
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that...really doesn't answer my question

how are you going to do this?

what do you expect the freed souls to look like?

what are you going to actually do with them?

your plan begins and ends at "stop Rionna"

this is not sufficient, even were I to agree with it
 
So, setting aside the moral outrage for a minute:

Assuming she's willing to play ball and do as we ask, what do we do if she isn't able to free Souls she's taken?
 
People are advocating that we cut off her hand and vaporize her body. When did this thread become Doom?

Why the fuck are people going straight to gemming her when we haven't even fucking tried diplomacy? She might be willing to listen to us if we ask, after all, we have leverage. She wants to work with us? She wants unlimited cleansing? fine, she should stop taking souls. Gemming her now just seems premature and extreme.

[X] Onmur
 
What do we actually know about Riona's power?

'Cause, like, I think there are some pretty giant fucking assumptions going around at the moment.
 
Vebyast said:
Put "Save Riona's shades" down on our research to-do list next to dewitching.
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and that still runs into one of the questions I asked:

even assuming that some of the souls she has claimed are innocent, many are murderers and worse, how do you plan to sort through them?

do you plan to sort through them?

you guys are basing all of these plans on assumptions and/or ignroing the actual practical side of "how do we deal with the aftermath?"

come on people
 
Sovereign Hunt said:
What do we actually know about Riona's power?

'Cause, like, I think there are some pretty giant fucking assumptions going around at the moment.
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They're conscious enough that our privacy sphere blocks communication with them.

They're conscious enough to be capable of carrying out complex commands and execute on long-term goals.

They are compelled to follow Riona's orders.

I think that that's roughly what we need to know.
kinigget said:
and that still runs into one of the questions I asked:

even assuming that some of the souls she has claimed are innocent, many are murderers and worse, how do you plan to sort through them?

do you plan to sort through them?

you guys are basing all of these plans on assumptions and/or ignroing the actual practical side of "how do we deal with the aftermath?"

come on people
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So, what, you think that we should let her keep making more? Because we can't solve the problem RIGHT NOW?
 
Godwinson said:
So, out of curiosity, how do you guys expect to be able to enforce this deal you're proposing? She lives on the other side of the world.
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Well, she's here now and seems to be intending to stick around for awhile. So long as she's at least in Mitakihara, you can reasonably be sure she'll abide. Ideally, by the time she departs back home you'll have gotten her on the side where you can be sure that she won't go off and do this unethically.
 
Vebyast said:
So, what, you think that we should let her keep making more? Because we can't solve the problem RIGHT NOW?
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did I ever say that?

look, I'll be frank. I don't see a problem with any of what she's done, and am perfectly willing to continue as if nothing happened

however

if you guys really want to do this, shouldn't you at least think it through as far what you do in the aftermath?

sure, burn the witch or whatever, but then what?

where do you go from there?
 
Vebyast said:
They're conscious enough that our privacy sphere blocks communication with them.

They're conscious enough to be capable of carrying out complex commands and execute on long-term goals.

They are compelled to follow Riona's orders.

I think that that's roughly what we need to know.

So, what, you think that we should let her keep making more? Because we can't solve the problem RIGHT NOW?
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Point.

Still think we need to learn more.

Edit: Also, very important (I feel) to remember: Nadia vouched for her. So at the very least, that tells me she won't insta-escalate to trying to soul rip us if we get pushy. We should keep this in mind.
 
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Holy crap, lunch with grandparents aside, this took half my day.



I don't want to start this discussion by sending ultimatums (I was called on my first vote making demands, and reconsidered). I want to start this discussion in a way that's not likely to piss Riona off.

As long as she makes no threatening moves, keep talking.

If she tries to leave the discussion/sphere, tell her we're afraid, and that we'd like to reach a conclussion now. Offer to bring drinks and sandwiches, if necesssary. I'd rather stay here all the damned day than nudge Riona towards doing something we would construe as hostile.

It's one thing if we try to do good and Riona goes 'hahaha no I'm taking your soul now'. It's another if we don't even try to not offend her, or if we treat her in a way that would cause her to want to shut up and leave.

If she refuses to concede at all... I'm not certain we can just take her, even with timestop antimagic and whatnot. (Actually, if she's honest about being cut off, maybe we don't want the antimagic plan, want to keep her contained in the sphere... or we'd need a new sphere, because we don't want her to touch us with her soul stealing magic...)

If we fuck this up, we might have a fight in our hands. It hasn't come to that, so let's do our best to solve this the Social way.
 
kinigget said:
did I ever say that?

look, I'll be frank. I don't see a problem with any of what she's done, and am perfectly willing to continue as if nothing happened

however

if you guys really want to do this, shouldn't you at least think it through as far what you do in the aftermath?

sure, burn the witch or whatever, but then what?

where do you go from there?
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I'd ask the same of you. How do you propose to talk her down? How do you propose to convince her to release all of her shades, given that she outright enjoys using her power? How do you propose to keep her from taking more shades? Do you want to let her go back home? If she has no shades and stops taking more she probably won't be able to hold her territory.

So, sure, decide to talk her down, but then what? Where do you go from there?
 
kinigget said:
that...really doesn't answer my question

how are you going to do this?

what do you expect the freed souls to look like?

what are you going to actually do with them?

your plan begins and ends at "stop Rionna"

this is not sufficient, even were I to agree with it
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To be honest, I don't give a flipping fuck. You can't morally justify enslaving souls, and all her excuses go out the window as soon as she admitted to enslaving muggles and meguca who weren't fucking murderers. She literally made a crack about how she's of stolen our soul if it came down to it, purely because our power is useful.

I don't trust anything about what she's saying regarding the moral character of her slaves. It's just a justification. Free the souls and either they go back to their bodies or they go to the afterlife, either is fine.
 
Vebyast said:
I'd ask the same of you. How do you propose to talk her down? How do you propose to convince her to release all of her shades, given that she outright enjoys using her power? How do you propose to keep her from taking more shades? Do you want to let her go back home? If she has no shades and stops taking more she probably won't be able to hold her territory.

So, sure, decide to talk her down, but then what? Where do you go from there?
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at what point did you miss that I see no proeblem letting her continue?
 
OK, what do we actually know about Rionna?

1) She has a very twisted sense of justice (from our POV).
2) She has no problem being very open about it.
3) She is not known as a "kill/escape on sight" monster by the meguca community and was, in fact, referred to us by someone we consider a pretty decent person.

Therefore, I think that the: "she has a sense of justice that veers into being evil" > "she must then also be evil about everything else!" > "that means any diplomatic solution is impossible!" > "gem her now!" - logic chain is just a tad bit hasty here.

Vebyast said:
There is no possible explanation for her having de-souled a normal human. None. There is nothing a normal human can do to force her to do it for the good of the world. There is nothing a normal human can be part of that makes this just or fair. There is nothing a normal human could do to threaten her.
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AuraTwilight said:
The souls she stole includes, by her own words, ordinary fucking humans. Those people should be in jail, not fucking braindead with their souls enslaved. Why the fuck would she even fucking DO that?
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I keep seeing this argument, but I really don't get the supposed moral distinction here. Yes, what she does is fucked up, but why is it supposedly so much more fucked up when it's done to a mundane, not meguca?

Because I can imagine several scenarios, where a mundane could be doing as evil things as a most evil magical girl, and has been successfully avoiding the law. If a magical girl like Rionna (or us) found out that the beloved and well-connected mayor is secretly leading a child trafficking ring, what should they do? Give their expert testimony to the court, as magical girls?

What would Sabrina do, if she caught a mundane serial killer, but couldn't provide non-magical evidence, or not without drawing unwanted police attention on herself? Let them go, because, oh well, mundane matters are not in her jurisdiction?
 
AuraTwilight said:
The souls she stole includes, by her own words, ordinary fucking humans. Those people should be in jail, not fucking braindead with their souls enslaved. Why the fuck would she even fucking DO that?
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We don't know. That's the point, Aura.

Even still I can think of a few reasons off the top of my head, without much effort. The first of which being when magical girls are involved, it is really hard to gather evidence, even before you start factoring in Incubator involvement, in the case of heinous criminals (like Rapists, for instance). Never mind getting a conviction. Then, she probably chose to do this instead of killing because I do not doubt she rationalizes her power to be better than just flat our murder, because that is the normal human response to such a situation.

Godwinson said:
So, out of curiosity, how do you guys expect to be able to enforce this deal you're proposing? She lives on the other side of the world.
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Well, we can ask her to stay here. Or, Mikipolice, or Oriko once we get her fixed, or conceptual ribbons. We have magic. We gave two arsonists probation and have literal birds watching them.

Vebyast said:
So, what, you think that we should let her keep making more? Because we can't solve the problem RIGHT NOW?
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I mean, the vote says that we need her to stop stealing souls, doesn't it? That's the point of it.

Vebyast said:
I'd ask the same of you. How do you propose to talk her down? How do you propose to convince her to release all of her shades, given that she outright enjoys using her power? How do you propose to keep her from taking more shades? Do you want to let her go back home? If she has no shades and stops taking more she probably won't be able to hold her territory.

So, sure, decide to talk her down, but then what? Where do you go from there?
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That's the whole vote. We are offering her what she wants, appealing to her morals, and giving her our stance, in order to convince her to come around to our point of view. This is what we are doing. What's stopping her from taking more shades? What's stopping any of the other groups we've made deals with from reneging? We check in, we set up repercussions, we have magic. We offer to take care of her problems in response to her giving up her souls, that's what's on the table.

AuraTwilight said:
To be honest, I don't give a flipping fuck. You can't morally justify enslaving souls
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But you can morally justify not dealing with the consequences of removing her from the picture. In all reality, if we gem her, we're never going to have her on our side, barring mind control (slavery), stealing her power via Sayaka (may not be possible, also basically the same as what's she's doing right now), and thus we are not fixing anything. Instead, we're just going DEUS VULT and making the situation actively worse.
 
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