Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Remove "and will." We still can share cleansing, but that would depend on how Rionna reacts.
Please don't make promises that we may not follow later.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Back to votecrafting. 
[] Take a moment to calm down.
-[] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
-[] Ask her to hear you out.
[] You find her claims horrifying, for moral and practical reasons.
-[] You understand her actions might have felt justified before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
-[] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
--[] Standards, justice, hope.
--[] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
--[] De-Witching.
[] You want to work with her.
-[] Together, you could do great, good things.
-[] But you can't abide with her claims.
--[] Taking people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop.
--[] Ask her to restore or release the Souls she's taken.
--[] Offer alternatives and solutions, anything she needs to make it work.
---[] A jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is needed.
--[] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that. A Clear Seed, whatever better way of cleansing you can come up with in the future.
[] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
EDIT: X'd in because it's an upgrade to my current vote.
EDIT EDIT: UnX'd in because upgraded vote later on.
[] Take a moment to calm down.
-[] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
-[] Ask her to hear you out.
[] You find her claims horrifying, for moral and practical reasons.
-[] You understand her actions might have felt justified before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
-[] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
--[] Standards, justice, hope.
--[] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
--[] De-Witching.
[] You want to work with her.
-[] Together, you could do great, good things.
-[] But you can't abide with her claims.
--[] Taking people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop.
--[] Ask her to restore or release the Souls she's taken.
--[] Offer alternatives and solutions, anything she needs to make it work.
---[] A jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is needed.
--[] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that. A Clear Seed, whatever better way of cleansing you can come up with in the future.
[] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
EDIT: X'd in because it's an upgrade to my current vote.
EDIT EDIT: UnX'd in because upgraded vote later on.
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- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Actually, I think we should also make it clear that our partnership with her is also dependent on the opinions of our friends and allies. We should get a team meeting together soon.
- Location
- U.S.A.
Look, it's not about her being useful. We've done terrible things too, Gemming girls is not kid gloves. Especially when many of them might not have realized that they're just a rock running their meat puppet body. We also threatened to force witchout Kirika (who, you might notice, is now often referred to as "Best Buddy") just to get Oriko to cooperate. I'm not saying that these things are the moral equivalent to soul slavery. I'm saying that needs must when the devil drives. Magical girl life has a way of bringing out the worst in everyone. Riona is just more powerful than the average girl. It seems pretty clear to me that we're not judging Riona just because she's done bad things.
We're so immediately harsh on her for two reasons, 1) we don't know her. Look at Homura, we know she's gone through multiple timelines murdering civilians in cold blood for the equivalent of thought crimes. She also, before we broke through her shell, acts very similar to Riona, that cold detached mien which is very much a defense mechanism. With Riona, we only see the bad, without knowing or caring about what pushed her to this point.
2) She's powerful. Soul slavery? What about actual slavery? The University group (or whoever they were) were forcing other teams to drudge work or die (and essentially pushing them to the brink of witching out) for control. In our battle they gave no consideration for civilians either, dealing indiscriminate property damage (Ramiel anyone?). Why are we so much more forgiving towards them than Riona? Because we know that we can smack them down. It's interesting isn't it, how trust is so easy to extend when we hold all the cards. But the first time we're asked to go out on a limb to redeem someone, the first time we meet a peer powerwise we jump right to removing them?
We're better than this, we need to look past these two considerations. Riona has done terrible things, so has every MG except for this version of Sayaka because she was born into our budding paradise and Mami because Mami is perfect and didn't know the truth. We have the option to be better. But that means nothing if we don't exercise it when the going gets tough.
We're so immediately harsh on her for two reasons, 1) we don't know her. Look at Homura, we know she's gone through multiple timelines murdering civilians in cold blood for the equivalent of thought crimes. She also, before we broke through her shell, acts very similar to Riona, that cold detached mien which is very much a defense mechanism. With Riona, we only see the bad, without knowing or caring about what pushed her to this point.
2) She's powerful. Soul slavery? What about actual slavery? The University group (or whoever they were) were forcing other teams to drudge work or die (and essentially pushing them to the brink of witching out) for control. In our battle they gave no consideration for civilians either, dealing indiscriminate property damage (Ramiel anyone?). Why are we so much more forgiving towards them than Riona? Because we know that we can smack them down. It's interesting isn't it, how trust is so easy to extend when we hold all the cards. But the first time we're asked to go out on a limb to redeem someone, the first time we meet a peer powerwise we jump right to removing them?
We're better than this, we need to look past these two considerations. Riona has done terrible things, so has every MG except for this version of Sayaka because she was born into our budding paradise and Mami because Mami is perfect and didn't know the truth. We have the option to be better. But that means nothing if we don't exercise it when the going gets tough.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
The UG was the abused party.
The abusers were the 'main' (or first, I think) Sendai group (the UG are also a Sendai group).
The Fukushima girls are the biggest candidates for 'oops directly caused those two (3?) civillian deaths'. Not that we can check, and of course, we knew it was gonna be a lot worse without our intervention, simply because of the escalation that was about to ocurr.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
[X] Onmur
I think trying to convince her to free them is an utterly lost cause which will antagonize her. Just saying.
As for my feelings on things...
This definitely sounds like a bunch of atrocities to me, but we really need her for Dewitching, and her sheer degree of Social incompetence means her words might deserve a grain of salt.
We should see if we can't make peace with her, for now. It disgusts me deeply, but leaving Witches caught in eternal despair bothers me more.
If this conversation goes poorly, though, I think it'll be time to break a gem for the first time--that should free her victims souls, hopefully, and hopefully eliminate her, neither of which I'd trust gemming her to do.
I think trying to convince her to free them is an utterly lost cause which will antagonize her. Just saying.
As for my feelings on things...
This definitely sounds like a bunch of atrocities to me, but we really need her for Dewitching, and her sheer degree of Social incompetence means her words might deserve a grain of salt.
We should see if we can't make peace with her, for now. It disgusts me deeply, but leaving Witches caught in eternal despair bothers me more.
If this conversation goes poorly, though, I think it'll be time to break a gem for the first time--that should free her victims souls, hopefully, and hopefully eliminate her, neither of which I'd trust gemming her to do.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Alright, I've had about enough.
I'm sorry we look like a bunch of dumb lemmings in your eyes, Godwinson. ( hopefully with exceptions, at least, not even me, but some wise sage like Redshirt Army or Onmur, who you could find place in your heart to respect, or something )
But.
1. Please show respect to your fellow posters. If not because you actually feel it, then because it's a requirement for a productive discussion.
2. If you don't want some people to have an opinion you disagree with, why not try to dissuade them instead of just saying their opinion is wrong and dumb?
I understand your frustration, and I'd probably feel something very much like this if someone tried to condone torture as a viable tactic to gain information, for example. I just urge you to be a better person about this. Stop trivializing users just because you find their opinions wrong and/or deplorable.
We are all wrong from time to time, God knows, I feel like my day is incomplete if someone's hasn't yelled "What the heck are you doing with that spoon?!" at least twice. ( not really, I'm completely proficient with the spoon, honest. )
If you didn't mean what I think you meant, then I'm sorry for overreacting and blowing things out of proportion for no reason. I just... gotta chill somewhere nice for a couple of hours, I guess.
- Location
- U.S.A.
I'd prefer something about cleansing for promising no more soul slaves and moving towards freeing the rest, but I like where it's going so far.
[X] Onmur
[X] Onmur
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
[X] Onmur
I came back on my break with a whole bunch of thoughts to put into a vote and I see someone hit most of the same notes for me.
The only real thing I'd want to add is a line making it clear we are prepared to offer a clear seed in exchange for her stopping her current practices and releasing her bound souls.
Also maybe a line asking her if she's capable of putting those souls back. (We can probably manufacture bodies for those whose original forms have since decayed if it comes to it.)
Rion+a strikes me as a girl who has a bit of a 'hammer problem'. She only has this one tool, so everything starts to look like a problem that can be solved with it, and I mean, it's easy to see how she started out. What would the alternative be? Trying to hunt witches with nothing but Meguca strength/speed and her weapon? That can work for a veteran, but when you're just starting out you probably have to rely on your powers, and when you've already taken a few souls, it probably just gets easier and easier to rationalize, to justify, and to see your work as acceptable, even necessary.
If anything, I pity her. She's dangerous to be sure, and we should be ready to put her down if she tries to pull anything on any girl under our protection, but that does not really remove the fact that I kinda feel her own powers are probably what mad effort her this way in the end.
I came back on my break with a whole bunch of thoughts to put into a vote and I see someone hit most of the same notes for me.
The only real thing I'd want to add is a line making it clear we are prepared to offer a clear seed in exchange for her stopping her current practices and releasing her bound souls.
Also maybe a line asking her if she's capable of putting those souls back. (We can probably manufacture bodies for those whose original forms have since decayed if it comes to it.)
Rion+a strikes me as a girl who has a bit of a 'hammer problem'. She only has this one tool, so everything starts to look like a problem that can be solved with it, and I mean, it's easy to see how she started out. What would the alternative be? Trying to hunt witches with nothing but Meguca strength/speed and her weapon? That can work for a veteran, but when you're just starting out you probably have to rely on your powers, and when you've already taken a few souls, it probably just gets easier and easier to rationalize, to justify, and to see your work as acceptable, even necessary.
If anything, I pity her. She's dangerous to be sure, and we should be ready to put her down if she tries to pull anything on any girl under our protection, but that does not really remove the fact that I kinda feel her own powers are probably what mad effort her this way in the end.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Godwinson said the moment the update came out that he wanted to draw a line in the sand so that people didn't start apologizing for her crimes because she was "useful".
I'm going to be completely frank. This logic disgusts me. If she recognized that she was committing atrocities and had led with "I'm going to get rid of them the instant I can", and if she hadn't admitted to using her power on non-meguca, I might be saying that she was salvageable. But with her current state of mind she is a dangerous liability. We cannot work with her as long as she believes that what she does is okay. She will take shortcuts, she will commit more atrocities, she will undo everything that we wanted to do. The question is no longer if we end up in a fight with her but when. And I think that our best chance of taking her is right now, before she has any idea what we can do or has time to device countermeasures. Trying to "use her" is a bad idea and falls into exactly the pitfalls that Sabrina must resist if she is going to actually do good. If we let Riona keep operating we're just the same kind of shit we vowed to stop.
Modification of @Godwinson:
[X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
-[X] "Timestop, now!"
[X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Gem her by cutting her hand off and obliterating her body.
-[x] Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls.
-[x] Assume she can operate while gemmed. Avoid touching the gem or hand with grief so she can't take your soul through it or get pulled into time stop.
-[x] Be prepared for either time stop or a countermeasure.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Script Mak3r
(Verified Sun God) (Verified Feathers)
- Location
- Hell of Blazing Fires
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The same could be said of Homura. The difference? We know what makes Homura tick. We know how to keep her from doing morally questionable things, but I feel that, if Homura somehow also had Rion+a's power, then Oriko's soul would currently be under her control.
And yet, nobody is advocating that we fucking cut off Homura's hand. It's not justice if we make exceptions for people we like.
Further more, if we're here to fulfill Madoka's Wish, then we have to at least try to help, because if we don't, then we are hardly following the spirit of the Wish.
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Onmur
Yes, that looks good. Add in Clear Seeds under "[] explain your work and hopes to improve things"?
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Homura doesn't try to justify her actions. Homura does not need to be convinced to stop running around enslaving people. If we handed Homura a clear seed her murder rate would fall to around that of Sayaka or Kyouko. Homura does not go around killing normal people for fun or science.
Riona doesn't think she did anything wrong. There is no possible explanation for her having de-souled a normal human. None. There is nothing a normal human can do to force her to do it for the good of the world. There is nothing a normal human can be part of that makes this just or fair. There is nothing a normal human could do to threaten her.
If we're here to fulfill Madoka's Wish, we need to not cast a blind eye on people running around gleefully committing atrocities. Solving all our other problems is meaningless if we don't deal with this shit too.
Remember that, whatever else Madoka does, she always ends the loop by shooting Walpurgisnacht in the fucking face.
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I refuse to condemn her to death purely out of knee-jerk reflexive fear.
She deserves to be given a chance to change, just like every single other girl who's done shitty things because they wanted to be safe and survive.
We have not yet given her that chance.
If she refuses? Fine. Gem her, steal her powers, then kill her. Fine.
I'm okay with that. If She Refuses.
But until she says no, it behooves us to try.
That's the thing about being good. You have to give everyone a chance to turn around.
She deserves to be given a chance to change, just like every single other girl who's done shitty things because they wanted to be safe and survive.
We have not yet given her that chance.
If she refuses? Fine. Gem her, steal her powers, then kill her. Fine.
I'm okay with that. If She Refuses.
But until she says no, it behooves us to try.
That's the thing about being good. You have to give everyone a chance to turn around.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
And you have literally no way of knowing that Rion+a eon't be exactly the same way.
For all we know, she will accept a clear seed in exchange for stopping the enslavement and murder.
If you choose to condemn her to death without ever giving her a chance to redeem herself, then in the end, you're hardly any better.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[ ] Take a moment to calm down.
-[ ] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
-[ ] Ask her to hear you out.
[ ] You find her claims horrifying, for moral and practical reasons.
-[ ] You understand her actions might have felt justified before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
[ ] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
-[ ] Standards, justice, society. And hope for freedom, from grief and from witchhood.
[ ] You believe that, if we cooperate, magical girls can do amazing things.
-[ ] But you can't accept what she's done. Taking people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop, and restore or release the Souls she's taken.
--[ ] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies, magical research, whatever is necessary.
[ ] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us. Everyone should have the opportunity to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
I'm not pushing for cooperation because Rionna is useful. The marginal utility of her help is actually fairly low, given that with Sayaka's assistance, we can gain usage of her magic regardless.
Everything can be fixed.
If we accept that Rionna is irredeemable, that her crimes are so heinous that she should be gemmed indefinitely or killed... then we're following the logic that Rionna herself used to justify claiming souls.
If some of the souls under her command have done worse things then her, as seems very likely, are we just going to keep them suspended ourselves?
I don't believe that she does awful things for shits and giggles. Ultimately, the number of truly irredeemable people in the world is very small, and I don't think Rionna is among that number, from what we've seen.
Madoka's canon wish was made for the sake of all magical girls. Do you think that she'd hesitate for even a moment to extend that salvation to Rionna as well?
-[ ] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
-[ ] Ask her to hear you out.
[ ] You find her claims horrifying, for moral and practical reasons.
-[ ] You understand her actions might have felt justified before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
[ ] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
-[ ] Standards, justice, society. And hope for freedom, from grief and from witchhood.
[ ] You believe that, if we cooperate, magical girls can do amazing things.
-[ ] But you can't accept what she's done. Taking people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop, and restore or release the Souls she's taken.
--[ ] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies, magical research, whatever is necessary.
[ ] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us. Everyone should have the opportunity to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
I'm not pushing for cooperation because Rionna is useful. The marginal utility of her help is actually fairly low, given that with Sayaka's assistance, we can gain usage of her magic regardless.
Everything can be fixed.
If we accept that Rionna is irredeemable, that her crimes are so heinous that she should be gemmed indefinitely or killed... then we're following the logic that Rionna herself used to justify claiming souls.
If some of the souls under her command have done worse things then her, as seems very likely, are we just going to keep them suspended ourselves?
I don't believe that she does awful things for shits and giggles. Ultimately, the number of truly irredeemable people in the world is very small, and I don't think Rionna is among that number, from what we've seen.
Madoka's canon wish was made for the sake of all magical girls. Do you think that she'd hesitate for even a moment to extend that salvation to Rionna as well?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
The difference is that Homura understands what she's doing is wrong, doesn't like it, and stops as soon as she has an option.
Rionna?
Rionna enjoys what she does, doesn't give a fuck what her power does to her victims, and doesn't give a fuck what other people think about what she does.
I'm not advocating that she be killed out of hand, or that she be gemmed indefinitely, only that she's gemmed until we've got the resources to ungem her without her being a hideous risk to anyone around her, so we can free the souls she's fucked with to exploit for her own ends.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
We aren't using the same logic, because we aren't fucking enslaving them. We are giving them their just deserts. No one, not even the most despicable monster, who deserves death for their crimes, deserves to be enslaved.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
We don't know Riona well enough to judge her. For all we know, she's making herself sound worse than she is, to provoke us.
She said things. We don't know she did the things she said.
Attacking her could very well destroy any chance of her working together with us.
Also,
She said things. We don't know she did the things she said.
Attacking her could very well destroy any chance of her working together with us.
I'd say the 'monster' should get a pick of death or enslavement, just to chime in.
Also,
I bet that's what Riona thinks, too.