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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Why I'm even asking this question: evidently, his race can create a relay to connect consciousness to a body further away than 100 meters.

Or. Or they can't, though I really doubt it. Because that'd mean there are routers somewhere everywhere and we can hurt him by destroying the routers. I think someone'd come up with such an idea, and Kyubei is too indifferent to the whole "harming my fleshbag" thing for it to be true. Not ruling it out, though.

But if they can, so do we. They have the technology, we have frikking magic! And Niko.
 
Raiseth said:
Why I'm even asking this question: evidently, his race can create a relay to connect consciousness to a body further away than 100 meters.

Or. Or they can't, though I really doubt it. Because that'd mean there are routers somewhere everywhere and we can hurt him by destroying the routers. I think someone'd come up with such an idea, and Kyubei is too indifferent to the whole "harming my fleshbag" thing for it to be true. Not ruling it out, though.

But if they can, so do we. They have the technology, we have frikking magic! And Niko.
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No. Kazumi is the one who has Niko.
 
Ohhhhh... to add to the idea of Sayaka using birbs as familiars to watch over Oriko, not only could she hyptonize and edit the birbs' minds for this, Sayaka also has some sort of sight power.

What if Mami connected Sayaka to a birb and Sayaka somehow used her power through the birb's eyes?
 
Okay, actually, my veritable multi-page essay is taking awhile, so I want to address this bit on its own before we move even further along. Essay-post probably will turn up after I go eat food...
This post is probably also on the long side why do I do this

SaltyWaffles said:
[X] Propose making a robust Grief-construct lie detector, testing it among yourselves, and having you and Homura question Oriko and Kirika with it. If it works, you can eliminate the question of trust altogether. You could even make questioning sessions a regular thing, if absolutely necessary.
[X] If Sayaka isn't willing to provide escort for them, you will. You've done it before, after all, and things went well. Besides, you've already trusted Kirika to have your back in combat more than once--and she's performed above and beyond expectations every time.

I swear to fucking god, if my lie detector idea gets completely ignored yet again...
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I am concerned about the Grief-construct lie detector for a few reasons.

Part of it is that we'd have to be sure to pin down how it works and be sure to ask the right questions; as with surveys and statistics, leading questions or insufficiently specific questions can give out absolutely horrible data. If we develop the lie-detector- does it pin down half truths? Absolute truths- things that people believe but which are false? How is it influenced by what Sabrina views as 'truth'? Obviously, these things would be pinned down in construction and development, yeah. But testing itself is fraught with, I think, some of the same issues as the idea of using group enchanting as a mode for empathy.

Who do we really have to test it on? Sabrina, Homura, Mami, Sayaka, Madoka, Hitomi, I think, are the list of "trustworthy enough to get reliable data from". Of these, Sabrina and Homura have some extremely sensitive and actively dangerous information. Homura and Mami likely have a lot of emotions they don't want to spill or even hint at, beyond infohazards. Everyone else, I'm not sure would be comfortable with the possibility of 'accidentally here are all of my thoughts and emotions on this topic ever' to come up during testing. Well, Madoka and Sayaka may volunteer without fully thinking that thought through, but Homura would definitely object to having Science done with Madoka as a subject, no matter how benign the Science.

Given, this is mostly only a problem if the hypothetical lie detector acts as a lasso of truth compulsion, or, I dunno, lights up when the subject is hiding any information related to the subject, or something, given, but the point of testing would be to figure that sort of thing out. That means testing it on someone first without knowing what kind of lie-detector it is. That means being very careful with any an all questions in the testing room, because wow there is a lot of intel we don't want to spill, and Sabrina has literally all of it, on everyone. Even controlled testing with only Homura, as the person who knows almost all the infohazards, we still have some things we don't want to bomb her with, and she has things she probably wouldn't want to broadcast with us. In the most practical sense, actually, testing this thing first with Hitomi would probably be the safest, from a doesn't-have-the-capacity-to-literally-on-purpose-reality and/or witch out and/or collateral damage everywhere.


With that out of the way, I have some perhaps more strictly relevant concerns as well.

Sabrina has, of course, demonstrated the ability to make whatever the hell she wants, usually within reason, sometimes beyond it. As long as it can be Witchy, if she asks for a lie-detector with certain properties for safety, she'd nearly certainly get them. Testing to make sure that it functions as intended would have some of the same dangers outlined above, but as long as we were very careful about our testing process, we would probably be fine. Also, Firn has been a pretty merciful god about stuff like this, I think?

We still run into two issues.

1) Making sure we ask the right questions- because asking "can you honestly promise you would never do X (again) under any circumstances" of someone, who has demonstrated both suicidal tendencies and a desire to Save The World with ends justifying the means, is probably going to get us a predictable answer that brings us back around to the possibility shooting the prisoners. And that's the sort of certainty that we'd be asked to go for, with a lie detector on hand. This means either we'd have to be really convincing about making sure only extremely carefully worded questions are asked using the lie detector, or we need a safety on the thing preventing it from tagging insufficiently specific queries. Either way, this is super tricky; vagueness on the part of literally everyone would be our enemy; and we may come across as untrusting of the judgement of our friends and consequently overbearing and, then, back around to the manipulativeness thing.

Firn could choose to be a merciful god, here, but it also seems like the sort of place we'd have access to the verbal rope to hang ourselves and everyone else with. I'm not sure I'd want to walk into a tricky set of votes like that if we have other options.

2) Relying too much on the lie detector. This comes from both the place of "what if Oriko and Kirika were planning something" and the more generally relevant place of concern for the idea of your proposed "If it works, you can eliminate the question of trust altogether. You could even make questioning sessions a regular thing, if absolutely necessary." being applied more generally. A lie detector that's more like an honesty-and-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-but-the-truth compulsion would be more invasive than I'm comfortable with personally; anything less than that can be subject to major issues with human error. If we start using the lie detector to, as you say, eliminate the question of trust, there's the strong chance that, eventually, we'll slip up and ask for insufficient verification.

Also, the moment this fact is pointed out to Homura is the moment she pulls an Armsmaster and acquires a detailed interrogation script to use with the lie detector as a matter of course. This isn't a necessarily bad thing, per se, if we have someone checking to make sure we're covering all bases whenever we use it, but the question of reliance remains- it'll become a crutch, I think, and possibly hamper building real trust. Particularly when rehabilitating non-Oriko and non-Kirika prisoners. I think they would probably understand, because they know Sabrina has some measure of trust in them already, and Oriko knows the sort of antipathy they have weighted against them from other corners. But other prisoners- or allies, if we ever brought out the lie-detector to resolve more general questions of good faith- may rightly have some strong issues with the idea, if it's mandatory for prisoner rehabilitation. Not even to speak of people who would refuse because they have other secrets they're paranoid about keeping.

Basically, I think it's not a bad idea but I have some serious reservations about moving toward it now, in the context of this vote and discussion.

I agree with the idea of volunteering to supervise periodic O&K excursions, but have some concerns about how "Besides, you've already trusted Kirika to have your back in combat more than once--and she's performed above and beyond expectations every time." may be communicated verbally. By which I mean, noting and acknowledging Kirika's good performance is probably a good thing to do, but having the words "trust" and "Kirika" in the same sentence would probably be counterproductive with regard to some of the progress we're trying to make towards seeming not-suborned.

Edits for clarity and grammar because I was in a hurry to post this and go eat
 
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For reasons of narrative compression, it was necessary to have this covnersation with both Sayaka and Homura at once, but really they have entirely different concerns that are almost completely separate from each other. Reassuring both of them doesn't contradict anything, but it does require having basically two different conversations at once.
 
Which isn't necessarly something bad, they both need to be on the same page, whatever agreement we reach with one, the other needs/has to know.
 
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Having the conversation together has one amazing benefit - Homura has come to see Sayaka as an ally in her resistance against empowering Oriko. In a funny way, if Sayaka agrees to a change in status quo, Homura will find it easier to accept, because she knows Sayaka hates Oriko, and can therefore be trusted in this matter more than Sabrina can.
 
The Phoenixian said:
How is this meaningfully different from a bodycam? Someone still has to review what the animals say after all, and if that someone is Sayaka then I doubt she'd be willing to spend the time needed to do it.
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Presumably the animals would just report if Oriko or Kirika left the designated area, rather than watching their every moment. (Not that I'm endorsing Operation Spies of Saruman as a good idea.)

I don't think that bodycams will be practical for a number of reasons. The only way to know that they didn't go off the reservation at any point is to film their every moment, which would be incredibly invasive and uncomfortable for all involved.

It's also completely unnecessary. Mami already has a method for tracking people that she demonstrated earlier this same day. Just as she was able to use a ribbon to let Oriko track Anri, she can use ribbons to let Sayaka or someone track Oriko and Kirika.


Raiseth said:
Why I'm even asking this question: evidently, his race can create a relay to connect consciousness to a body further away than 100 meters.
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The soul gem to body connection of magical girls and the hive mind of the Incubators may not be based on the same principles. After all, one was presumably purpose-built while the other was kitbashed onto an existing organism.
 
The Narrator said:
The soul gem to body connection of magical girls and the hive mind of the Incubators may not be based on the same principles. After all, one was presumably purpose-built while the other was kitbashed onto an existing organism.
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... you know, I know that was meant to be a statement that implies which is which, but honestly, when I think about it, and Incubators, I'm honestly not sure which would be most accurately applied to which organism. Depends on how meguca were made, depends on how Incubators were made, I guess.
 
mCooperative said:
... you know, I know that was meant to be a statement that implies which is which, but honestly, when I think about it, and Incubators, I'm honestly not sure which would be most accurately applied to which organism. Depends on how meguca were made, depends on how Incubators were made, I guess.
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Humans already existed before the Incubators came along and started ripping out their souls, so the magical girl version is a modification. Whereas the Incubator bodies that we've seen are almost certainly not their true form (they're way too clearly designed to appear appealing to human sense of aesthetics and come with a convenient Grief Seed receptacle), and thus were probably designed specifically for their current use.
 
The Narrator said:
Humans already existed before the Incubators came along and started ripping out their souls, so the magical girl version is a modification. Whereas the Incubator bodies that we've seen are almost certainly not their true form (they're way too clearly designed to appear appealing to human sense of aesthetics and come with a convenient Grief Seed receptacle), and thus were probably designed specifically for their current use.
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Ah, see, hence my confusion. I'd thought you might be implying the other way 'round, how the State of Being Meguca was probably a mechanical process that gets applied to an existing organism, but was itself built wholecloth, while Incubator bodies may have been a preexisting organism with some desirable traits that've been modified to better fit their purposes. Curious.
 
mCooperative said:
Ah, see, hence my confusion. I'd thought you might be implying the other way 'round, how the State of Being Meguca was probably a mechanical process that gets applied to an existing organism, but was itself built wholecloth, while Incubator bodies may have been a preexisting organism with some desirable traits that've been modified to better fit their purposes. Curious.
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I guess I did reverse the order when describing them (because mentioning the kitbashing first would have ruined the punchline). Should've added "the latter" and "the former" to make it clearer.
 
mCooperative said:
-snip on lie detectors-
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There's also the question of whether or not Homura believes the lie detector is, in fact, a lie detector. After all, a magic lie detector that lights up on a lie is indistinguishable from a device that lights up when a sufficiently well-informed meguca tells it to, so long as no verifiable lies are missed.
I mean, Homura might trust us that far, but if there were ever a situation she would be suspicious of it, it'd be this one.
Now if we could find a truthguca and have Sayaka copy her powers...
 
So, all that talk about manipulation reminded me of this: NOAM CHOMSKY - TOP 10 MEDIA MANIPULATION STRATEGIES ~ The International Coalition

1. The strategy of distraction

The primary element of social control is the strategy of distraction which is to divert public attention from important issues and changes determined by the political and economic elites, by the technique of flood or flooding continuous distractions and insignificant information.

Distraction strategy is also essential to prevent the public interest in the essential knowledge in the area of the science, economics, psychology, neurobiology and cybernetics.

"Maintaining public attention diverted away from the real social problems, captivated by matters of no real importance. Keep the public busy, busy, busy, no time to think, back to farm and other animals" (quote from text Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars).

2. Create problems, then offer solutions

This method is also called "problem -reaction- solution."

It creates a problem, a "situation" referred to cause some reaction in the audience, so this is the principal of the steps that you want to accept.

For example: let it unfold and intensify urban violence, or arrange for bloody attacks in order that the public is the applicant's security laws and policies to the detriment of freedom.

Or create an economic crisis to accept as a necessary evil retreat of social rights and the dismantling of public services.

3. The gradual strategy

Acceptance to an unacceptable degree, just apply it gradually, dropper, for consecutive years.

That is how they radically new socioeconomic conditions (neoliberalism) were imposed during the 1980s and 1990s:

• the minimal state
• privatization
• precariousness
• flexibility
• massive unemployment
• wages
• do not guarantee a decent income,

...so many changes that have brought about a revolution if they had been applied once.

4. The strategy of deferring

Another way to accept an unpopular decision is to present it as "painful and necessary", gaining public acceptance, at the time for future application.

It is easier to accept that a future sacrifice of immediate slaughter.

• First, because the effort is not used immediately
• Then, because the public, masses, is always the tendency to expect naively that "everything will be better tomorrow" and that the sacrifice required may be avoided

This gives the public more time to get used to the idea of change and accept it with resignation when the time comes.

5. Go to the public as a little child

Most of the advertising to the general public uses speech, argument, people and particularly children's intonation, often close to the weakness, as if the viewer were a little child or a mentally deficient.

The harder one tries to deceive the viewer look, the more it tends to adopt a tone infantilizing.

Why?

"If one goes to a person as if she had the age of 12 years or less, then, because of suggestion, she tends with a certain probability that a response or reaction also devoid of a critical sense as a person 12 years or younger." (see Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars)

6. Use the emotional side more than the reflection

Making use of the emotional aspect is a classic technique for causing a short circuit on rational analysis, and finally to the critical sense of the individual.

Furthermore, the use of emotional register to open the door to the unconscious for implantation or grafting ideas , desires, fears and anxieties , compulsions, or induce behaviors …

7. Keep the public in ignorance and mediocrity

Making the public incapable of understanding the technologies and methods used to control and enslavement.

"The quality of education given to the lower social classes must be the poor and mediocre as possible so that the gap of ignorance it plans among the lower classes and upper classes is and remains impossible to attain for the lower classes." (See Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars).

8. To encourage the public to be complacent with mediocrity

Promote the public to believe that the fact is fashionable to be stupid, vulgar and uneducated…

9. Self-blame Strengthen

To let individual blame for their misfortune, because of the failure of their intelligence, their abilities, or their efforts.

So, instead of rebelling against the economic system, the individual auto-devaluate and guilt himself, which creates a depression, one of whose effects is to inhibit its action.

And, without action, there is no revolution!

10. Getting to know the individuals better than they know themselves

Over the past 50 years, advances of accelerated science has generated a growing gap between public knowledge and those owned and operated by dominant elites.

Thanks to biology, neurobiology and applied psychology, the "system" has enjoyed a sophisticated understanding of human beings, both physically and psychologically.

The system has gotten better acquainted with the common man more than he knows himself.

This means that, in most cases, the system exerts greater control and great power over individuals, greater than that of individuals about themselves.
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Sabrina doesn't do 4, 5, 8 nor 9 (though some have said that we treat Homura as a child, I personally don't see it)

10 is unavoidable, as well as 7, sort-of, we should probably make make a list about all the things we know about magical girls that we can tell them and they don't know and, well, tell them, it would probably be for the best.

The way we started this conversation has shades of 2, somehow, in the way we used it as an opener to what we were planning to bring up from the start; though, how are we gonna handle other troublemaker magical girls isn't actually a problem we made up.

It may seem that we're using 6 (feelings) as a way to win sympathy for Oriko, but the truth is that both Sayaka and Homura are already driven by their own feelings, Sayaka with her anger and Homura's... hate; and telling them all that information is actually necessary for them to understand what drived Oriko to do what she did.

Some say we're failing to: a) adress Homura's and Sayakas's actual concerns, and b) tell them exactly what we really think about Oriko and Kirika, our feelings towards them, why are we vouching for them and what we would actually want to do with them in them future.

If you think that's true and that these are the things we should be focusing on and/or what Homura and Sayaka actually want to know, then I guess you may think we've been doing 1 (flooding them with unnecesary information).

And last, 3 is what some seem to want to do regarding Oriko and Kirika, give them more and more freedom gradually (provided they actually show sings of reforming/as long as the therapy is actually giving results, I hope), do we all agree on how we think Homura and Sayaka would react if they knew this? does it matter?

P.S. This is just a list I found on internet a long time ago, I'm not saying it could be applied to this situation (it's 10 strategies of media manipulation, and Sabrina isn't using media), nor that it's not all just bullshit; also this is all based on my interpretation of that list, and I may be interpreting it wrong.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
[X] Propose making a robust Grief-construct lie detector, testing it among yourselves, and having you and Homura question Oriko and Kirika with it. If it works, you can eliminate the question of trust altogether. You could even make questioning sessions a regular thing, if absolutely necessary.
[X] If Sayaka isn't willing to provide escort for them, you will. You've done it before, after all, and things went well. Besides, you've already trusted Kirika to have your back in combat more than once--and she's performed above and beyond expectations every time.

I swear to fucking god, if my lie detector idea gets completely ignored yet again...
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It was removed from the winning vote at the time, unfortunately.
Guilop said:
Everyone seems to agree that we could at least get the Kures to move, which should already help a bit.
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See, the thing is - Homura doesn't care where they're living, as long as it doesn't give Oriko opportunities to execute her plans. Sayaka can, in addition to being swayed by Sabrina's arguments about trauma and such, also see that - hey, if they're moving out, they're moving to somewhere less luxurious, which definitely appeals to her sense of justice. And I'm not trying to make her out as a bad person, just... again, she's a teenage girl. She's allowed to be petty.
 
Firnagzen said:
See, the thing is - Homura doesn't care where they're living, as long as it doesn't give Oriko opportunities to execute her plans. Sayaka can, in addition to being swayed by Sabrina's arguments about trauma and such, also see that - hey, if they're moving out, they're moving to somewhere less luxurious, which definitely appeals to her sense of justice. And I'm not trying to make her out as a bad person, just... again, she's a teenage girl. She's allowed to be petty.
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... Firn, whenever you give us even a hint of word of god, even when it's only a general assessment of the state of affairs, I always think and will say again- you are a merciful god. Thank you, for giving us even a little certain ground about what in the name of toast everyone not-Sabrina is thinking in this situation. Madokami bless you.
 
Now the question becomes, where would we relocate them to? Would Kirika's parents be okay with her lesbian lover moving in, even if she is extremely rich? They do still have the warehouse hideout that Oriko prepared for them: it'd be comfortable but not opulent, and since we didn't wind up housing refugees there we'd just have to move the fridge and food back to make it ready for occupants again.

It would be nice if Oriko and Kirika could resume attending school and having some semblance of a normal life, but since Kirika is a student at Mitakihara Middle School, I don't think Homura would be okay with having her that close to Madoka. I wonder if we could get her transferred to Oriko's school; they wouldn't want to be separated all day anyway. We could lay out in no uncertain terms where they were allowed to go under the terms of their house arrest--home, school, store, points in between--and if they stepped outside those they would be in deep shit.
 
The Narrator said:
Now the question becomes, where would we relocate them to? Would Kirika's parents be okay with her lesbian lover moving in, even if she is extremely rich? They do still have the warehouse hideout that Oriko prepared for them: it'd be comfortable but not opulent, and since we didn't wind up housing refugees there we'd just have to move the fridge and food back to make it ready for occupants again.

It would be nice if Oriko and Kirika could resume attending school and having some semblance of a normal life, but since Kirika is a student at Mitakihara Middle School, I don't think Homura would be okay with having her that close to Madoka. I wonder if we could get her transferred to Oriko's school; they wouldn't want to be separated all day anyway. We could lay out in no uncertain terms where they were allowed to go under the terms of their house arrest--home, school, store, points in between--and if they stepped outside those they would be in deep shit.
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Where we relocate them isn't that big a deal rigth now... actually, Homu might have some places thought up already.

I really doubt Kirika will be admitted into Shirome. Shirome is one of those... 'high class' schools.


With the most critical moment ending, I'm slightly disoriented.

This is what I've votecrafted so far:

Tracking ideas.
Relocation?
Oriko facing up to her crime.
Thank Homu and Sayaka and offer more info.
Have a moment with Homu.

Might be more than an update's worth, but you never know with that darned lovable Firn.

[X] Tracking.
-[X] Mami Ribbons.
-[X] Sayaka could ask/hypnotize/mind whammy the local fauna into watching O&K.
--[X] She could watch over Mitakihara, not just over O&K.
--[X] Consult the Pleiades about it?
-[X] Cameras: We could Grief Hax something to watch the footage?
-[X] Hiring someone with appropriate powers, like Taniguchi?
-[X] Asking Yuki to claim wherever we move O&K to, in addition to the place Homura picked?

[X] Where to move O&K.
-[X] Homura, ideas?

[X] Oriko's crime.
-[X] Mention plan to tell adults about magic. Specially (consenting) meguca's parents.
-[X] Propose making Oriko confess her crime to the Mikis; having the Mikuni mansion sold and using the money to repay the Mikis?

[X] Thank Homura and Sayaka for hearing you out. (Hug Mami).
-[X] Promise we'll be extra careful for their sakes.
-[X] Offer to share information:
--[X] Oriko's foreseen death (potential killers*; time limit).
---[X] *'Feathers'; Homura; Sayaka; Sabrina; unknown blonde, green-eyed girl .
--[X] Oriko's fear of 'Feathers', and her belief we're vital to stop it; her 'demands' we don't 'stretch ourselves too thin'.

[X] Ask Homura for a moment in private.
-[X] Ask how she's doing.
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Onmur said:
Where we relocate them isn't that big a deal rigth now... actually, Homu might have some places thought up already.

I really doubt Kirika will be admitted into Shirome. Shirome is one of those... 'high class' schools.


With the most critical moment ending, I'm slightly disoriented.

This is what I've votecrafted so far:

Tracking ideas.
Relocation?
Oriko facing up to her crime.
Thank Homu and Sayaka and offer more info.
Have a moment with Homu.

Might be more than an update's worth, but you never know with that darned lovable Firn.
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Don't forget to feed the Homu, if possible, maybe watch the fight video, if we make it completely out of this conversation and everyone's still around. Prolly won't get that far, but as you say, you never know.
 
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