Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[The Narrator]

I really doubt Kirika will be admitted into Shirome. Shirome is one of those... 'high class' schools.

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You can get anyone into a fancy school if you throw money at it, and Oriko has a great deal of money.

 

[Onmur]

You can get anyone into a fancy school if you throw money at it, and Oriko has a great deal of money.

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Well, I don't know.

I don't think Kirika would like it there, though. Oriko plain did not have friends, at least nobody would give her the time of the day after her dad's death.

There's one meguca in Shirome, in Sadness Prayer, that gets into 'tentatively could be called almost friends' territory with Oriko but then she dies.

Hey, we didn't sense any meguca at Shirome the one time we passed by, but maybe this girl's still around, maybe contracted? We really did put off checking on the potentials we sensed at Shirome that time.

 

[HeroCycle]

You can get anyone into a fancy school if you throw money at it, and Oriko has a great deal of money.

Click to shrink...

Well, I don't know.

I don't think Kirika would like it there, though. Oriko plain did not have friends, at least nobody would give her the time of the day after her dad's death.

There's one meguca in Shirome, in Sadness Prayer, that gets into 'tentatively could be called almost friends' territory with Oriko but then she dies.

Hey, we didn't sense any meguca at Shirome the one time we passed by, but maybe this girl's still around, maybe contracted? We really did put off checking on the potentials we sensed at Shirome that time.

Click to shrink...

There is a mission in here, part of her magical public service.

Using only Social, upholding the Masquerade, and never in front of Kyuubey, -


Prevent all potentials in her reach from contracting.

This would be a fitting good deed for Oriko?

 

[The Narrator]

I don't think Kirika would like it there, though. Oriko plain did not have friends, at least nobody would give her the time of the day after her dad's death.

Click to shrink...

Well, there's no way Homura will stand for Oriko transferring to Mitakihara Middle any time soon. We might just have to put off the re-enrollment question until after Walpurgisnacht. They've already been out of school for two weeks, three more won't matter much.

Prevent all potentials in her reach from contracting.

This would a fitting good deed for Oriko?

Click to shrink...

I am entertained by this idea.



Coincidentally, I was thinking about the potentials at Shirome and how we could keep them from contracting... wondering how we could make contact... thinking that maybe we could sneak in a small Grief construct...

...what about a Grief simulacrum of Kyubey?

"Hello, girls! My name is Kyubey. It's short for Incubator, which means 'one who hatches eggs.' I'm an alien hive mind controlling numerous bodies like this one, which I designed to look cute and non-threatening to adolescent human females. I want you to make a contract with me and become a magical girl! In exchange for having one wish granted, you will have your soul torn from your body and placed in a gem. You can survive all sorts of injuries as long as your Soul Gem is intact! However if it is destroyed, you will die instantly, and if it moves more than 100 meters from your body you will fall unconscious. You will have to fight witches, which are eldritch abominations with reality warping powers that could brutally kill you if you make a mistake, in which case your remains will never be found. Defeating a witch nets you a Grief Seed, which you can use to clean your Soul Gem as it builds corruption from magic use or negative emotions. As this corruption builds, you will become depressed, prompting you to gain more corruption, then become irrational. When your gem fills entirely, it will shatter and transform into a Grief Seed and you will become a witch. Yes, that means that you are the egg that I'm incubating. We will then use the Grief Seed that used to be your soul as a battery to power our alien civilization while you suffer for all eternity. Oh, and your wish will probably fail to accomplish what you wanted it to. Would you like to make a contract now?"

 

[HeroCycle]

lol

Well, there's no way Homura will stand for Oriko transferring to Mitakihara Middle any time soon. We might just have to put off the re-enrollment question until after Walpurgisnacht. They've already been out of school for two weeks, three more won't matter much.



I am entertained by this idea.



Coincidentally, I was thinking about the potentials at Shirome and how we could keep them from contracting... wondering how we could make contact... thinking that maybe we could sneak in a small Grief construct...

...what about a Grief simulacrum of Kyubey?

"Hello, girls! My name is Kyubey. It's short for Incubator, which means 'one who hatches eggs.' I'm an alien hive mind controlling numerous bodies like this one, which I designed to look cute and non-threatening to adolescent human females. I want you to make a contract with me and become a magical girl! In exchange for having one wish granted, you will have your soul torn from your body and placed in a gem. You can survive all sorts of injuries as long as your Soul Gem is intact! However if it is destroyed, you will die instantly, and if it moves more than 100 meters from your body you will fall unconscious. You will have to fight witches, which are eldritch abominations with reality warping powers that could brutally kill you if you make a mistake, in which case your remains will never be found. Defeating a witch nets you a Grief Seed, which you can use to clean your Soul Gem as it builds corruption from magic use or negative emotions. As this corruption builds, you will become depressed, prompting you to gain more corruption, then become irrational. When your gem fills entirely, it will shatter and transform into a Grief Seed and you will become a witch. Yes, that means that you are the egg that I'm incubating. We will then use the Grief Seed that used to be your soul as a battery to power our alien civilization while you suffer for all eternity. Oh, and your wish will probably fail to accomplish what you wanted it to. Would you like to make a contract now?"

Click to shrink...

Where is the instruction to them regarding the infamous "seven minutes of Death" for green infantry?

 

[Qwertystop]

Well, there's no way Homura will stand for Oriko transferring to Mitakihara Middle any time soon. We might just have to put off the re-enrollment question until after Walpurgisnacht. They've already been out of school for two weeks, three more won't matter much.



I am entertained by this idea.



Coincidentally, I was thinking about the potentials at Shirome and how we could keep them from contracting... wondering how we could make contact... thinking that maybe we could sneak in a small Grief construct...

...what about a Grief simulacrum of Kyubey?

"Hello, girls! My name is Kyubey. It's short for Incubator, which means 'one who hatches eggs.' I'm an alien hive mind controlling numerous bodies like this one, which I designed to look cute and non-threatening to adolescent human females. I want you to make a contract with me and become a magical girl! In exchange for having one wish granted, you will have your soul torn from your body and placed in a gem. You can survive all sorts of injuries as long as your Soul Gem is intact! However if it is destroyed, you will die instantly, and if it moves more than 100 meters from your body you will fall unconscious. You will have to fight witches, which are eldritch abominations with reality warping powers that could brutally kill you if you make a mistake, in which case your remains will never be found. Defeating a witch nets you a Grief Seed, which you can use to clean your Soul Gem as it builds corruption from magic use or negative emotions. As this corruption builds, you will become depressed, prompting you to gain more corruption, then become irrational. When your gem fills entirely, it will shatter and transform into a Grief Seed and you will become a witch. Yes, that means that you are the egg that I'm incubating. We will then use the Grief Seed that used to be your soul as a battery to power our alien civilization while you suffer for all eternity. Oh, and your wish will probably fail to accomplish what you wanted it to. Would you like to make a contract now?"

Click to shrink...

Unfortunately, that breaks the masquerade in a way Kyubey wouldn't be willing to tolerate – at minimum, anyone who heard that would get wiped as soon as it found out.

 

[Romka]

Now the question becomes, where would we relocate them to? Would Kirika's parents be okay with her lesbian lover moving in, even if she is extremely rich? They do still have the warehouse hideout that Oriko prepared for them: it'd be comfortable but not opulent, and since we didn't wind up housing refugees there we'd just have to move the fridge and food back to make it ready for occupants again.

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Kirikas parents would also have to accept the fact that Oriko convinced her to become a magical girl and change her personality in the process, then pissed off the local meguca to the point that they got beat up and put under house arrest.

I really doubt Kirika will be admitted into Shirome. Shirome is one of those... 'high class' schools.

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High class compared to Mitikihara? What the hell do they study, Perturbation theory?

 

[Skelm]

High class compared to Mitikihara? What the hell do they study, Perturbation theory?

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Being rich.

 

[The Phoenixian]

Hmm. Thanks, gotta rewatch episodes 6 and 7, then.

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Rebellion is also a useful showcase here: When testing whether her soul gem is connected to her, Homura goes through a stage of weakening, losing her vision, and similar before the lie is actually revealed.

There is a mission in here, part of her magical public service.

Using only Social, upholding the Masquerade, and never in front of Kyuubey, -


Prevent all potentials in her reach from contracting.

This would be a fitting good deed for Oriko?

Click to shrink...

Personally, I'm much more in the camp of "properly inform potentials and give them alternate options if in dire straights" than "outright stop contracts." As long as they know exactly what they're signing up for and aren't being coerced into a wish, then they have the right to decide whether becoming a magical girl is truly worth it or not.

Though the mention of having Oriko do it does put me to mind of asking our refugees to scout for potentials and/or new girls to ensure they're not left to contract uninformed and that those who have contracted at least have proper tutelage.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

One thing that consistently turns me off of this quest is that Sabrina has alternate goals from Homura, but repeatedly reassures her that she has her best interests at heart.

Frankly, the only reason that we aren't reacting exactly the same way that Homura has been, is that we believe that it would be paranoid, but we've never exactly come out and said this or tried to resolve it with her - Rather, we've tried to bypass those concerns like a charismatic salesman; "Homura, whilst i think that Oriko has reason to be locked up, can we please do x thing anyway?" We rely on her trust so as to eek out further milestones of lax security, but every time they come close to suspecting this fact we're quick to excuse ourselves and manipulate them further.

Look, i can understand the need to keep info away from them that may actually harm them and cause a grief spiral, but can we come clean and explain less dangerous information, such as our full point of view and motivations when it comes to the kuras?

For example the fact that Sabrina suddenly trusts Oriko to not do anything bad despite the fact that she's only known them a week, as well as the fact that she's been trying her best to ease them into the idea of doing the same? Because that's all I've seen discussed in this thread so far - Ways of manipulating the other girls into accepting a person who they believe has wronged them.

Either take their side against Oriko, or explain to them that you're not on it and why.

Click to shrink...

I fully agree with this.

Frankly, a lot of this thread keeps voting to make Sabrina manipulative, rather than actually be truthful about her stance on this issue, and explain her reasoning.

Like the shit about repeatedly saying "Oriko is not a good person"? It's not true, and we don't believe that, but we keep saying it. We haven't come out and said that Oriko burned down Sayaka's home with the intention of saving her life from a threat she couldn't figure out how to deal with otherwise, and her precognition allowed her to ensure that neither Sayaka nor her family would come to harm.

But we aren't coming out and saying that, because we think that Sayaka won't accept it?

Fuck that. Fuck that so much. Maybe Sayaka can't accept the truth because she's too emotional and it doesn't fit with her preconceived notions about how Oriko is obviously a villain who burned down her home and deserves to be punished. But the shit Oriko pulled was nowhere near as bad--nor as morally objectionable--as what the Sendai team did, and the Sendai team basically got off without punishment, just with a change in leadership. The University Team accepted a solution to their situation without getting any justice for how they were wronged, because they were mature enough to understand that getting both of those things would lead to an even bigger mess and more precarious situation than they already had.

Likewise, implying to Homura that this Oriko is responsible--in any way--for the actions of her past-loop-counterpart is extremely wrong. In private with Homura, we can drive home that she doesn't blame Mami for killing Kyouko and nearly killing her, and that that Oriko was both suicidal and shown--via her Wish--only Madoka's Witch devouring the world, not the context or the simple means to avert it in a way that wouldn't get herself killed.

The problem is that we know better than Sayaka or Homura here, and not only are we not even trying to convince them of such, we're not even hinting that we even have a differing viewpoint than they do. And that's incredibly disingenuous.

There's a massive disconnect between how we think of Oriko and Kirika, and how Homura and Sayaka think of them, and until we actually address that, it's just going to be extremely awkward and difficult every time they come up.

But it's too late for that, right now. The time for trying to make progress on that area was the last vote, not this one. This vote is for solutions.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Because whether they're lying has nothing to do with anything.

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How in the fuck?

How do you arrive at that reasoning? Seriously, how?

Whether or not they're lying has everything to do with everything. Homura is afraid that they'll use their freedom to cause trouble for us again, or that Oriko secretly still has her precognition and is planning to betray us at the worst possible time, or manipulate us, or whatever. Sayaka has vaguely similar fears. A lie detector that actually works--coupled with an array of thorough and carefully worded questions--would allow us to obliterate those fears (or, at least, any rational basis for those fears).

Because how the fuck does Oriko beat a magical lie detector, even with precognition? You ask enough carefully worded questions, and you don't leave any holes for her to exploit (even if she was inclined to try), and you can be sure she isn't up to anything and has no intention of trying.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

[X] Plan Acknowledge Wrongs Done
- Ask to address each of them in turn.

- To Sayaka:
-- Acknowledge to Sayaka that she and her parents were victims of a crime. They were wronged. The question here is, what can be done to make it better and restore them as much as possible.
-- Sayaka, keeping Oriko and Kirika imprisoned was never going to be a long term thing. What are we going to do, keep a couple of teenage girls under house arrest for years? And we can't go to the mundane justice system either. Meguca can't survive in a regular prison, and separating the two of them would kill them both.
-- But at the same time, Sayaka deserves justice. Only Sayaka can answer the question of what 'justice' means to her, what she needs. An apology? Some way to get her parents financial compensation? Beating the crap out of Oriko?
-- Sabrina knows this is a heavy load to put on Sayaka, but we need to figure this out for real rather than pretending that keeping them under house arrest indefinitely is a viable solution.
-- (forceful here) Sabrina is not willing to be a jailer of meguca who have shown themselves willing to cooperate and surrender. She doesn't think Sayaka wants to be that either.

-To Homura
-- Homura is a little different. It's not about what Oriko and Kirika did in the past, is it? It's about what they might do in the future.
-- The question is, how do we know that if Oriko regains her seer sight she won't again resort to arson or even murder to go after whatever crazy future she wants?
-- But Homura, our current solution is no solution at all. Oriko is under house arrest because she agreed to be under house arrest. If she ran away at any time, odds are she could figure out some way to escape and avoid your time stop search, especially if her future sight was working again so she could run when we were all distracted.
-- Whatever comfort Homura thinks she has from knowing where to go to check on them is an illusion.
-- So going with trackers over pretending we have them pinned to one location would be an improvement on the current situation.
-- But more than that, Sabrina believes that Oriko won't do bad things again in the future.
-- Not because she's suddenly changed to be a great person, but for two reasons:
--- One, because Sabrina and Homura and Sayaka and Mami are all really scary Meguca. Working with us is always going to lead to better outcomes than working against us.
--- Two, Oriko has something to live for now. She loves Kirika and doesn't want Kirika to suffer. She doesn't want to throw her own life away because it would make Kirika suffer. She doesn't want to do things that will draw punishment and retaliation because it would make Kirika suffer. She now has something to lose.
-- Sabrina believes we've driven that message into Oriko's head. What would it take for Homura to believe it too?

Click to shrink...

Why is there no Grief Lie Detector in this? You're not even acknowledging the possibility, despite the fact that it provides us the best hope for showing Homura that she's wrong about Oriko.

 

[HeroCycle]

Personally, I'm much more in the camp of "properly inform potentials and give them alternate options if in dire straights" than "outright stop contracts." As long as they know exactly what they're signing up for and aren't being coerced into a wish, then they have the right to decide whether becoming a magical girl is truly worth it or not.

Though the mention of having Oriko do it does put me to mind of asking our refugees to scout for potentials and/or new girls to ensure they're not left to contract uninformed and that those who have contracted at least have proper tutelage.

Click to shrink...

Yes, the sempai-kouhai system turned to our advantage. I think trying to turn their thinking without introducing magic first is a great principle. If the girls get suckered anyway, the best thing for them is to meet Sabrina after. Mami will have a whole generation of students, even if we sweep up all the girls who need us from just the last weeks of contracting.

I fully agree with this.

Frankly, a lot of this thread keeps voting to make Sabrina manipulative, rather than actually be truthful about her stance on this issue, and explain her reasoning.

Like the shit about repeatedly saying "Oriko is not a good person"? It's not true, and we don't believe that, but we keep saying it. We haven't come out and said that Oriko burned down Sayaka's home with the intention of saving her life from a threat she couldn't figure out how to deal with otherwise, and her precognition allowed her to ensure that neither Sayaka nor her family would come to harm.

But we aren't coming out and saying that, because we think that Sayaka won't accept it?

Fuck that. Fuck that so much. Maybe Sayaka can't accept the truth because she's too emotional and it doesn't fit with her preconceived notions about how Oriko is obviously a villain who burned down her home and deserves to be punished. But the shit Oriko pulled was nowhere near as bad--nor as morally objectionable--as what the Sendai team did, and the Sendai team basically got off without punishment, just with a change in leadership. The University Team accepted a solution to their situation without getting any justice for how they were wronged, because they were mature enough to understand that getting both of those things would lead to an even bigger mess and more precarious situation than they already had.

Likewise, implying to Homura that this Oriko is responsible--in any way--for the actions of her past-loop-counterpart is extremely wrong. In private with Homura, we can drive home that she doesn't blame Mami for killing Kyouko and nearly killing her, and that that Oriko was both suicidal and shown--via her Wish--only Madoka's Witch devouring the world, not the context or the simple means to avert it in a way that wouldn't get herself killed.

The problem is that we know better than Sayaka or Homura here, and not only are we not even trying to convince them of such, we're not even hinting that we even have a differing viewpoint than they do. And that's incredibly disingenuous.

There's a massive disconnect between how we think of Oriko and Kirika, and how Homura and Sayaka think of them, and until we actually address that, it's just going to be extremely awkward and difficult every time they come up.

But it's too late for that, right now. The time for trying to make progress on that area was the last vote, not this one. This vote is for solutions.

Click to shrink...

The idea of rail-straight honesty is appealing. At the moment, I think we need a chance to build more empathy, so that can be successful. It is regrettable that we had fears get in the way. But viewed as a simulation of a middle school female, we are Far from attempting hostile manipulation.
Except when it comes to Kyuubey, because it never cut humans any slack to begin with.
The lie detector is something our allies might need to help with, to insure impartiality. Further, I don't want to make it a centerpiece, just a component of a Strong system. Here is my prototype. It is in there. Mod a bit, or debate if you see flaws, please.


[X] Oriko and Kirka decisions
-[X] Set dates for defendants to speak, later determination of sentence.
--[X] Must learn how to do this despite the powerful feelings and belief difficulties.
-[X] Move them, adopt a proactive boundary approach to security? The techniques must generally apply to other Magical Girl security threats.
--[X] Sentinel animals, magical radar, tripwires, proximity, pick an approach to develop first.
--[X] Check in by phone and neighbors in addition to GPS. Lie detector enchantment inspections on demand.
-[X] Oriko reacted positively to saving others. Our job is to train her thoroughly to that. Sayaka should determine progress.
-[X] Community service isn't just fighting / working for us. Most of their outdoor time will be mundane charity work.
--[X] We choose the circumstances, in this case to maximize empathy.
-[X] Back to school for them, if we can find a safe way. Too much free time.
-[X] Confinement in a dormitory setting. Others do not need to be prisoners. They must be cooperative informants.
--[X] Daily Supervised trips outside, if no assigned social task.
--[X] Designed until you are all satisfied.


[!Dialog] My wish is bigger than anything I can do alone.
[X] More on the GENERAL topic of adult help now? Anri is still out there. We still need civic development assistance. Refugees are in mourning.
-[X] Emotion is the defining feature of our powers. We need to get better at emotion. There is training.
-[X] Ask alternatives. Ask preferences for how they want to see this happen.
--[X] If Rionna aides us we have no way to cement those gains, or spread the help once she leaves.
-[X] We interview and hire crisis intervention psychaitrists NOW. Therapists for emotional skills development next.
-[X] Older Magical Girls might be worth contacting now? Tsubaki?

-[X] Watch DVD. Also enchant a little. That soft rock is ready for other magic now...? Pass it around. Or try to transform it into various objects.
--[X] Try to transform the enchnated rock into ice cube? A candle? Fruit? Imagine strongly

-[X] Telepathy Hijiri. Offer caring invite. Ask where she is bedding down. We could be helping.
[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko about Ono and Kuroki.

 

[Racoras]

Likewise, implying to Homura that this Oriko is responsible--in any way--for the actions of her past-loop-counterpart is extremely wrong.

Click to shrink...

While I agree with the rest, wasn't there significant concern among some that this would be a nasty BSOD-inducing landmine for Homura? As it implies that the Madoka 1.0 she contracted for is gone forever and this 111.3 Madoka around now is significantly not the same?

Others (myself) would say that if they experienced all the same events and circumstances up to the point of loop, then they're clearly the same till then and two weeks is nothing of a divergence ... but even without anomalies like Kwikjoke playing guitar that still brings us back to Homura's reasonable concern that Oriko is still the same person who decided to do such a thing to Madoka ,that is a person who's trained decision-making heuristics produced that result given different evidence those few weeks (now she's got Clear Seeds and Kirika-Witch to weigh against that decision-making machine of her brain, rather than "life as guca sucks and several of us starved/went nuts" as I assume happened in the "Oriko betrays after Waluigi Night" timeline, but if that were persuasive we wouldn't be having this problem)

 

[SaltyWaffles]

I think it's hypocritical in the extreme if we were to let the Sendai team get off scott free for getting people killed and being willing to wage war against innocents, but punish Oriko and Kirika for burning down Sayaka's home with the intention of saving her life (and having magical assurance that she and her family would not suffer serious harm from the incident).

For fuck's sake, we just officially allied with people who killed innocent people through reckless magical attacks in a crowded city in the middle of the day. Why doesn't Sayaka square that one with her sense of self-righteous indignation?

 

[SaltyWaffles]

While I agree with the rest, wasn't there significant concern among some that this would be a nasty BSOD-inducing landmine for Homura? As it implies that the Madoka 1.0 she contracted for is gone forever and this 111.3 Madoka around now is significantly not the same?

Others (myself) would say that if they experienced all the same events and circumstances up to the point of loop, then they're clearly the same till then and two weeks is nothing of a divergence ... but even without anomalies like Kwikjoke playing guitar that still brings us back to Homura's reasonable concern that Oriko is still the same person who decided to do such a thing to Madoka ,that is a person who's trained decision-making heuristics produced that result given different evidence those few weeks (now she's got Clear Seeds and Kirika-Witch to weigh against that decision-making machine of her brain, rather than "life as guca sucks and several of us starved/went nuts" as I assume happened in the "Oriko betrays after Waluigi Night" timeline, but if that were persuasive we wouldn't be having this problem)

Click to shrink...

We already made the point to Homura that this Oriko isn't that Oriko. She didn't seem to BSOD by any stretch.

The whole point is not that they're completely different people, but that blaming Oriko for something that retroactively never happened in anything but Homura's memory is ridiculous.

 

[mCooperative]

I think it's hypocritical in the extreme if we were to let the Sendai team get off scott free for getting people killed and being willing to wage war against innocents, but punish Oriko and Kirika for burning down Sayaka's home with the intention of saving her life (and having magical assurance that she and her family would not suffer serious harm from the incident).

For fuck's sake, we just officially allied with people who killed innocent people through reckless magical attacks in a crowded city in the middle of the day. Why doesn't Sayaka square that one with her sense of self-righteous indignation?

Click to shrink...

I did make a strong attempt to address that issue a few pages back, and would be very interested in what you thought of that attempt. Also, a few comments and concerns about your lie detector. Even if that assessment boils down to that I'm spouting bullshit, I would like to know your thoughts on my interpretation of your suggestion, and if and where I'm misinterpreting it. Or possibly where we merely disagree.

 

[HeroCycle]

Because Sayaka is pre-adapted to think of morality through a parochial and medieval filter?

Sabrina knows what is within and beyond her actual ability. Dealing with them as we have is more likely to let us Save more people than the other choices. It is a compromise with the Utilitarian position that real people tend to accept all the time?

I think it's hypocritical in the extreme if we were to let the Sendai team get off scott free for getting people killed and being willing to wage war against innocents, but punish Oriko and Kirika for burning down Sayaka's home with the intention of saving her life (and having magical assurance that she and her family would not suffer serious harm from the incident).

For fuck's sake, we just officially allied with people who killed innocent people through reckless magical attacks in a crowded city in the middle of the day. Why doesn't Sayaka square that one with her sense of self-righteous indignation?

Click to shrink...

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Okay, actually, my veritable multi-page essay is taking awhile, so I want to address this bit on its own before we move even further along. Essay-post probably will turn up after I go eat food...
This post is probably also on the long side why do I do this



I am concerned about the Grief-construct lie detector for a few reasons.

Spoiler: My thoughts as an excessively paranoid person about the ways a lie detector in general could go wrong

Part of it is that we'd have to be sure to pin down how it works and be sure to ask the right questions; as with surveys and statistics, leading questions or insufficiently specific questions can give out absolutely horrible data. If we develop the lie-detector- does it pin down half truths? Absolute truths- things that people believe but which are false? How is it influenced by what Sabrina views as 'truth'? Obviously, these things would be pinned down in construction and development, yeah. But testing itself is fraught with, I think, some of the same issues as the idea of using group enchanting as a mode for empathy.

Who do we really have to test it on? Sabrina, Homura, Mami, Sayaka, Madoka, Hitomi, I think, are the list of "trustworthy enough to get reliable data from". Of these, Sabrina and Homura have some extremely sensitive and actively dangerous information. Homura and Mami likely have a lot of emotions they don't want to spill or even hint at, beyond infohazards. Everyone else, I'm not sure would be comfortable with the possibility of 'accidentally here are all of my thoughts and emotions on this topic ever' to come up during testing. Well, Madoka and Sayaka may volunteer without fully thinking that thought through, but Homura would definitely object to having Science done with Madoka as a subject, no matter how benign the Science.

Given, this is mostly only a problem if the hypothetical lie detector acts as a lasso of truth compulsion, or, I dunno, lights up when the subject is hiding any information related to the subject, or something, given, but the point of testing would be to figure that sort of thing out. That means testing it on someone first without knowing what kind of lie-detector it is. That means being very careful with any an all questions in the testing room, because wow there is a lot of intel we don't want to spill, and Sabrina has literally all of it, on everyone. Even controlled testing with only Homura, as the person who knows almost all the infohazards, we still have some things we don't want to bomb her with, and she has things she probably wouldn't want to broadcast with us. In the most practical sense, actually, testing this thing first with Hitomi would probably be the safest, from a doesn't-have-the-capacity-to-literally-on-purpose-reality and/or witch out and/or collateral damage everywhere.

With that out of the way, I have some perhaps more strictly relevant concerns as well.

Sabrina has, of course, demonstrated the ability to make whatever the hell she wants, usually within reason, sometimes beyond it. As long as it can be Witchy, if she asks for a lie-detector with certain properties for safety, she'd nearly certainly get them. Testing to make sure that it functions as intended would have some of the same dangers outlined above, but as long as we were very careful about our testing process, we would probably be fine. Also, Firn has been a pretty merciful god about stuff like this, I think?

We still run into two issues.

1) Making sure we ask the right questions- because asking "can you honestly promise you would never do X (again) under any circumstances" of someone, who has demonstrated both suicidal tendencies and a desire to Save The World with ends justifying the means, is probably going to get us a predictable answer that brings us back around to the possibility shooting the prisoners. And that's the sort of certainty that we'd be asked to go for, with a lie detector on hand. This means either we'd have to be really convincing about making sure only extremely carefully worded questions are asked using the lie detector, or we need a safety on the thing preventing it from tagging insufficiently specific queries. Either way, this is super tricky; vagueness on the part of literally everyone would be our enemy; and we may come across as untrusting of the judgement of our friends and consequently overbearing and, then, back around to the manipulativeness thing.

Firn could choose to be a merciful god, here, but it also seems like the sort of place we'd have access to the verbal rope to hang ourselves and everyone else with. I'm not sure I'd want to walk into a tricky set of votes like that if we have other options.

2) Relying too much on the lie detector. This comes from both the place of "what if Oriko and Kirika were planning something" and the more generally relevant place of concern for the idea of your proposed "If it works, you can eliminate the question of trust altogether. You could even make questioning sessions a regular thing, if absolutely necessary." being applied more generally. A lie detector that's more like an honesty-and-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-but-the-truth compulsion would be more invasive than I'm comfortable with personally; anything less than that can be subject to major issues with human error. If we start using the lie detector to, as you say, eliminate the question of trust, there's the strong chance that, eventually, we'll slip up and ask for insufficient verification.

Also, the moment this fact is pointed out to Homura is the moment she pulls an Armsmaster and acquires a detailed interrogation script to use with the lie detector as a matter of course. This isn't a necessarily bad thing, per se, if we have someone checking to make sure we're covering all bases whenever we use it, but the question of reliance remains- it'll become a crutch, I think, and possibly hamper building real trust. Particularly when rehabilitating non-Oriko and non-Kirika prisoners. I think they would probably understand, because they know Sabrina has some measure of trust in them already, and Oriko knows the sort of antipathy they have weighted against them from other corners. But other prisoners- or allies, if we ever brought out the lie-detector to resolve more general questions of good faith- may rightly have some strong issues with the idea, if it's mandatory for prisoner rehabilitation. Not even to speak of people who would refuse because they have other secrets they're paranoid about keeping.

Basically, I think it's not a bad idea but I have some serious reservations about moving toward it now, in the context of this vote and discussion.

I agree with the idea of volunteering to supervise periodic O&K excursions, but have some concerns about how "Besides, you've already trusted Kirika to have your back in combat more than once--and she's performed above and beyond expectations every time." may be communicated verbally. By which I mean, noting and acknowledging Kirika's good performance is probably a good thing to do, but having the words "trust" and "Kirika" in the same sentence would probably be counterproductive with regard to some of the progress we're trying to make towards seeming not-suborned.

Edits for clarity and grammar because I was in a hurry to post this and go eat

Click to shrink...

It's late, I have work early in the morning, and I'm really damn tired. But I'll try to give a quick address on why this is not a concern.

Here's how it can work, even at the most basic level:

1) Make Grief Lie Detector. Even at the most basic level of functionality, it will detect lies based on intention. In other words, if you give a statement that is attempting to mislead or obfuscate, you are intending to not tell the truth, and thus, it sets off the lie detector.

2) Test the lie detector out among ourselves. This is easy. It doesn't have to involve personal information, or anything sensitive. We can write made-up BS for Mami and Homura to memorize, with each of them having secret goals about trying to lie or obfuscate or manipulate or deceive the other. Like a story or testimony about some made-up scenario. If need be, we can give some kind of very minor incentive for each of them to take the exercise seriously. We find out the limitations or flaws of the lie detector through this method.

3) Once we work out the kinks and discover its limitations, we work with Homura to come up with a thorough list of carefully-worded questions to ask Oriko and Kirika.

4) We (Sabrina and Homura) questions O&K with said list of questions, along with any other questions we think of in the spur of the moment (particularly if an answer requires clarification or additional vetting).

5) Assuming O&K pass the test, we can then certify that O&K are not a danger; at that point, the question of what to do with them moves onto "should we punish them further or not", which is a separate matter.

6) If Homura insists, we can conduct further tests at regular intervals for her peace of mind.

Now, it's worth noting that we don't actually need this test to trust O&K. We already know that they can be trusted, and they've come through for us before in every instance (above and beyond, even). This test is entirely for Sayaka's and Homura's benefit. Thus, there is no danger about being overly reliant on such a test; it just confirms to Homura and Sayaka what we already know.

---

And yet, for some reason, the lie detector idea hasn't been included in anyone else's vote. Because they're all allergic to reason, or something. Or even trying the best, most convenient solution. I don't know. But based on how horribly the thread fucked up the last update's vote--not bothering to try to really convince Sayaka or Homura of our viewpoints, or our reasoning, or why they're wrong about O&K, or even attempting to clear up Sayaka and Homura's misconception about Oriko's most noteworthy act and instead reinforcing their incorrect assumptions about it in a way that cannot be revoked without making ourselves look like liars or inconsistent in our views...I could go on--I'm not exactly fucking optimistic.

 

[HeroCycle]

Or, at least using the lie detector could get Firn to shout-out a scene to "Blade Runner" fandom?

 

[HeroCycle]

And yet, for some reason, the lie detector idea hasn't been included in anyone else's vote.

Click to shrink...

[jk] Preens with Pride:: Indeed, I'm not just anyone! [/jk]

Dear fellow poster, not only did I accept, my prior post stated that in discussion. Please be more careful? I'm trying to comprehend what each of us write. In this game 'Contract' matters.

 

[mCooperative]

It's late, I have work early in the morning, and I'm really damn tired. But I'll try to give a quick address on why this is dumb.

Here's how it can work, even at the most basic level:

1) Make Grief Lie Detector. Even at the most basic level of functionality, it will detect lies based on intention. In other words, if you give a statement that is attempting to mislead or obfuscate, you are intending to not tell the truth, and thus, it sets off the lie detector.

2) Test the lie detector out among ourselves. This is easy. It doesn't have to involve personal information, or anything sensitive. We can write made-up BS for Mami and Homura to memorize, with each of them having secret goals about trying to lie or obfuscate or manipulate or deceive the other. Like a story or testimony about some made-up scenario. If need be, we can give some kind of very minor incentive for each of them to take the exercise seriously. We find out the limitations or flaws of the lie detector through this method.

3) Once we work out the kinks and discover its limitations, we work with Homura to come up with a thorough list of carefully-worded questions to ask Oriko and Kirika.

4) We (Sabrina and Homura) questions O&K with said list of questions, along with any other questions we think of in the spur of the moment (particularly if an answer requires clarification or additional vetting).

5) Assuming O&K pass the test, we can then certify that O&K are not a danger; at that point, the question of what to do with them moves onto "should we punish them further or not", which is a separate matter.

6) If Homura insists, we can conduct further tests at regular intervals for her peace of mind.

Now, it's worth noting that we don't actually need this test to trust O&K. We already know that they can be trusted, and they've come through for us before in every instance (above and beyond, even). This test is entirely for Sayaka's and Homura's benefit. Thus, there is no danger about being overly reliant on such a test; it just confirms to Homura and Sayaka what we already know.

Click to shrink...

First of all, I don't disagree with any of your points. My main item of disagreement in my original reply was the fact that, for various reasons, I am generally more concerned with even having a lie detector. I agree, your description of making and testing said lie detector is most likely how it'd go down, and basically what I was imagining during my original post (the spoilered part that was specifically marked as me being excessively paranoid notwithstanding). And as long as it's a lie detector and not a truth compeller, and as long as we impress that it's not a toy, I also agree that we probably wouldn't encounter the infohazard related issues I'd mentioned.

My concerns, however, about asking the right questions, and about reliance, remain. The former, if I wasn't clear, isn't a matter of not asking sufficient questions to verify Oriko's and Kirika's good will. It's the matter of asking questions that are sufficiently well worded so that neither Oriko nor Kirika could reasonably in any way interpret them as asking about some extreme hypothetical, such that the lie detector would cast any doubt on their intentions. Also, those spur of the moment questions you mention concern me. Possibly overmuch, but because I tend to have a lot of verbal missteps even when trying very hard to avoid them, I tend to spread my concern about the matter around. Regarding reliance, I don't mean, and did not intend to imply, reliance in regard to vetting O&K. We would have a lie detector. We wouldn't not use it on other prisoners, if they were acquired and if we needed to confirm their veracity. My concern is that we may begin to use it in order to trust non-O&K sources and their information. If we didn't, and only used it as a tool to assuage doubts when we already had evidence of sincerity, I would have less issue with this, but I am rather concerned that's not what we'd end up doing.

All that being said, and while I will also note that I have particular issues/concerns about lie detectors, their risks, and implications, that were not in my original reply, and part of which were intended to be (and still will be) laid out as a side note in the longer post I've been working on, please recall that I also do not actually think a lie detector is a bad idea. As you've considered all my concerns and answered them, and while I still have a few but acknowledge that they are concerns from the paranoid-leaning side of reason, I think it's certainly something to pursue.

The point you put forth, however, of this lie detector being entirely for Homura and Sayaka's benefit, and being generally unneeded because it will be telling us something we already know, because we already believe we can trust O&K, is a part of why I have reservations about pursuing it now.

Aside from whether they could trust us, viscerally, to be actually running the lie detector on O&K rather than running a dummy lie detector to pursue our goals, given the declaration that this is only for H&S's benefit, and that we already trust O&K and have been rather implying it by our deeds even if we don't verbalize it-

And I realized I'm doing a thing again. When I say I have reservations about doing the thing now, I mean I have reservations about deciding, this present vote, that this is the thing we will be doing for the next however many votes until it is done and we have successfully persuaded Homura and Sayaka to trust, and then made, tested, and used this device. Because it takes a lot of time, we have a lot of eggs in the air already, and it feels like trying to push this through this very moment is pushing even more on to what has been a day already full of a hell of a lot of ups and downs, and adding more pressure for Homura and Sayaka to come around to our point of view. That runs counter to what we're trying to do with the understanding their concerns, feelings, etc, and displaying that understanding. Because of how much you're pushing the lie detector, that's a bit how it was coming across. From what you actually wrote, if you were meaning "put forth the suggestion, this is how it could optimistically work, but drop it if Homura and Sayaka don't really like the idea, and if they pick it up, work on it in a reasonable timeframe that's not literally the next 12 in game hours to get it done by in-game Wednesday morning" then yeah, no, that's a lot more reasonable. Sorry if I misinterpreted you there. S'late and words are swimming in front of my eyes, as well. I still have my concerns about lie detectors generally, but they're mostly personal-bias concerns, and not really useful for debating. Again, apologies if I was misinterpreting what you were meaning there.

edits added for grammar and clarity because it's 3:36 am

 

[Raiseth]

edits added for grammar and clarity because it's 3:36 am

Click to shrink...

Your debate with Salty Waffles aside, two things:
1) you don't really have to write why you're editing your post. If you don't add a paragraph with an edit: before it, most people will assume you wanted to correct something in your post anyway. It's up to you, of course.
2) go to sleep. I'm speaking from my experience: sleep deprivation is not a good place to be conducting a meaningful discussion from. Granted, to screw up like I did you'll have to really, really try, but let's not test it out, eh?

 

[mCooperative]

Your debate with Salty Waffles aside, two things:
1) you don't really have to write why you're editing your post. If you don't add a paragraph with an edit: before it, most people will assume you wanted to correct something in your post anyway. It's up to you, of course.
2) go to sleep. I'm speaking from my experience: sleep deprivation is not a good place to be conducting a meaningful discussion from. Granted, to screw up like I did you'll have to really, really try, but let's not test it out, eh?

Click to shrink...

Re: the first: Good to know. I'll prolly keep my little notes 'till I get lazy with them though; always feel like I ought explain myself, and it gives me a chance to whine in small font about how even did I miss x, y, and z errors.

Re: the second: Gotta finish my long-ass post and leave it up, gotta start a CS project, gotta hunt down a quote. Then, yeah, no, I am rather aware with the needing of the sleeps. Mind you, I've been caught up lately on sleep for once, so I can technically overclock for a bit. But I'll need to do so tonight as well; best not start early.

... and, I suppose my increased loquaciousness and rambling is another side effect. Not that you can so much tell the difference, with my normal post lengths, huh?

Edit: like so, because wow typo time.

 

[Raiseth]

... and, I suppose my increased loquaciousness and rambling is another side effect. Not that you can so much tell the difference, with my normal post lengths, huh?

Click to shrink...

I do that too, sometimes. It means your brain starts hurting too much and is dishing out the fanciest vocabulary it can come up with in vain hope you will leave it alone and let it sleep.

Eh, it's your choice. Go for it, if you think it necessary.