Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Tam Lin said:
Wait, does Homura know we're a product of Madoka's wish?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We don't actually know that. We have overwhelming evidence that suggests it, but we don't know for sure. Well, by deduction, we know it in the sense that it's the only logical explanation at the moment. In the absence of any other factors, so to speak.
 
zxzx24 said:
You...

*facepalm*

We help everyone!



Actually that is a good question. I suppose it really comes down to...

We do not think they would listen to her.

Which is kind of... Kind of shows a tremendous lack of faith in Homura and Sayaka.

We say we trust them, but have we shown that?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We trust them to do right by what is important to them, but Oriko has done her best effort, backed by literal Magic, to not be important to anyone; Homura and Sayaka are sort of the best example of this we could find; one of them is wiling to stop all but the minimum of her actions in the intrests of aiding justice the second her family were at risk, and the other literally tore god out of her heavenand claimed the universe (or at least as much of it as she possibly could) for her love.

We need to explain that we need to use the same process for these two as we would for anyone else, because giving different justice to different people based on personal feelings is how revolutions happen, and become what people feel is needed, and, in addition to that, we want to help everyone, so even just the fact that we need to inform our friends that other (and apparently, in their mind, real) people would be treated the same way that those two will be, in order to get them to treat them like actual people who should be helped instead of harmed, is horrible; we shouldn't need to work this hard to stop people from trying to harm each other.
Firnagzen said:
I didn't think about this in the beginning, but we're imprisoning her in the building she found her father's corpse. The same one that she's had to endure attacks in. There's graffiti on the walls, and windows that had to be replaced.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We should look into whether or not she would mind is we buld a better bulding where her place is; it would be the perfect place to start playing minecraft.

Edit:
Raiseth said:
We don't actually know that. We have overwhelming evidence that suggests it, but we don't know for sure. Well, by deduction, we know it in the sense that it's the only logical explanation at the moment. In the absence of any other factors, so to speak.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Evidence of absence is not absence of evidence".
 
Last edited:
Eh, seems like I'm way too much of a pessimist for this quest; we consistently achieve much better outcomes that what I'd have predicted based on the plan. This update went really well.

And yeah, there's no reason not to answer Homura with the honest, simple truth here.
 
My first draft:

[] Answer Homura
- [] Because you believe that everything can be fixed. Because you want to help everyone.
[] Sayaka
- [] It is within Homura's rights to answer her question when she wants to.
[] Elaborate more on
- [] Oriko's precognition
-- [] You believe and have a strong supporting evidence that the intent of the Wish affects its outcome and Meguca's powers. If Oriko wanted to die at the moment of making her Wish, then her precognition will allow her to seek the noblest ways to do so, thus feeding her fatalism, creating a feedback loop of depression. It was this very condition we've found her in.( simplify it? )
[X] Vote in abeyance ( changes? )
[] Ask again for their thoughts on what we should do, how and why. They are your friends and you value their opinion.

141 words, excluding notes ( all three words of them. Economy! :V). I can easily cram in more, but I don't know what. Yet.
Any thoughts, ideas, offers?

Edit: Shit. Forgot Seykuu. Pending

Now. Eh, don't like answer so much, though.
 
Last edited:
Jrin said:
Really I thought there are references to it only we put it aside on account of her shutting down or out.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
From the useful information tab at the start of the thread:
Firnagzen said:
Here's the thing. Homura explicitly calls it an irregular/anomalous timeline (depending on translation, chapter 6, page 17), and anomalous timelines exist, as evidenced by the whole guitarist thing, which is implied to happen not-very-often. It follows that Oriko had never contracted before, and similarly, why need Kirika have?

Taking that then as literal, and that Homura is ruthless, as opposed to murderous, well, then, why need Homura kill Oriko if she doesn't contract?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Simplest way she could have asked. Thank Goodness (mom)!

[] Oriko is changing. I think we have her on your side, contributing to our city. Safe, too.


Tell Sayaka that Homura would have to go into Infohazards to explain fully.

Here is the laundry list of points we could use IMHO.

HeroCycle said:
Freshly prepared for... eh, my own satisfaction!


[X] Time for Homura discussion. Tell Mami and Sayaka there is an infohazard component, please give leave?

[X] Request begin timestop

-[X] Listen, first. Prompt, if Homura won't start.

-[X] Explain that you see Oriko is showing herself to accept our agenda.

-[X] Ask if Homura sees anything else about them.

--[X] This Oriko is not the same as the others anymore. She is changing.

-[X] Project future intent. Oriko stays alive, and helps in certain ways. We negotiate her eventual move to another town, and long term monitoring rights, such as Mitakihara off limits.

--[X] As an ally, Oriko can help us build a bigger and safer community. She has skills to trade.

-[X] Ask how to control risk to Madoka? We want her ideas.

[X] This isn't like the loops. No more foreknowledge soon. And that is risky. And terrifying.

-[X] We are adapting by gaining help. It is working. Not finished yet, grasping for more allies.

[X] Making the city using moral sacrifices is bound to fail. We want to finish the route of building the city using our best actions.

[X] Will never trade one of my friends to save someone

-[X] Will find the way to save each, even if the Mahou Shoujo are bad, trying is important. One rule, no exceptions.

--[X] That dedication is why you know we will keep Madoka safe. And we want you to keep me safe too.

[X] Deploy Mother/Daughter humor

[X] Offer hugs. Accept fear. Share hope.

[X] return timestop

[X] Group enchant? That soft rock is ready for other magic now...?

[X] More on the GENERAL topic of adult help now? Anri is still out there, we still need development assistance, refugees are in mourning, ask alternatives. Ask preferences for how they want to see this happen.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

OTOH, we have a minor hurdle, the classic fault is a memory partitioning scheme.
Segmentation fault. Too many people in this timestop. Oops.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 4, 2018 at 1:47 AM, finished with 135486 posts and 22 votes.
  • [X] Answer Homura: Because I believe that I was given the knowledge I woke up with so I could fix things, so I could help people. That whoever or whatever was behind it wanted me to have empathy for everyone I knew about, even Oriko. But that doesn't change what she's done in the past, and if I thought she would try to do anything like that again, then I would help you stop her. Whatever it would take. The three of you, Hitomi, Madoka, you're my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power. Also, I think that we might be able to use this to make their imprisonment more secure.
    -[X] Subtext: I think Madoka wished me into being, and Madoka wouldn't want us to be cruel to Oriko. But that doesn't mean I'll help Oriko be able to hurt Madoka -- please don't think my kindness means I would side with her against you.
    [X] Cut in with Sayaka: It ties into some different, deeply personal things for Homura. I'm not saying not to ask her, or that she should or shouldn't answer, because that's not my place. I'm just saying it's connected to a lot of other, really heavy things for Homura, so that you know just how big of a question you're asking her. So that if she doesn't want to answer, you'll know why. Then pull back a moment so Homura can decide whether she wants to get into that, knowing that Sayaka shouldn't be offended if she declines to answer. (If she does, break vote here, because that'd be huge!)
    -[X] Subtext: I have just been talking about really deep personal history knowledge for Oriko of all people, so my being protective of Homura on this subject ought to be quickly tied to that, to help reinforce that Sayaka's question is bigger than she thinks it is.
    [X] Elaborate more on Oriko's precognition and vision, motives for specific actions, bring up her tip that helped save Sayaka from the witch, and the different sorts of blind-spots Feathers and I produce in her precog. And that I have reason to trust what she was saying when first captured because (shamefully) I had threatened Kirika with a fate worse than death if she didn't answer truthfully.
    -[X] Subtext: I will do things I will hate myself for afterwards to protect my friends.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Goal: Re-assure we're on her side.
    --[X] We're just someone who helps people.
    --[X] We will stop Oriko if she tries anything.
    --[X] Our metaknowledge and observations make us believe this is the best way forward.
    -[X] Potentially:
    --[X] Point lives saved and alliances made because we're like this.
    --[X] Oriko foreseeing her own death, at Homura's, Sayaka's, or our hands.
    --[X] Consequences of treating prisoners (and teenagers) inhumanely.
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Let Homura field the question.
    --[X] If necessary, intervene in favour of Homura keeping her secrets.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    [x] Answer Homura
    -[x] On a personal level? Same as with everyone else; I want to help. I believe that everything can be fixed. Meguca are for saving.
    --[x] I sound naive. I know. But I believe I have this information about people for a reason. To help everyone I can.
    ---[x] I know there are people, like the insane serial killer magical girl who hoards souls gems, who are beyond anything but the most extreme forms of "help". If I thought Oriko was like that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl.
    --[x] Oriko did a lot of bad things. She could have done more. We stopped her. If I even suspected she was plotting anything, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop her again. I would never let her hurt you three, Hitomi, Madoka- you're all my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power.
    ---[x] That said, with the information I have, I believe this is the best course of action to make sure it never comes to that.
    -[x] More practically? Imprisoning meguca is difficult and expensive. We have limited resources and people. Meguca justice must be preventative, not punitive. We applied that principle in Sendai; whether we like it or not, it's proven itself so far.
    --[x] Oriko and Kirika are extremely useful assets. They've already helped save a lot of people.
    ---[x] Elaborate if necessary (e.g. Masami and Hiroko, Fukushima, saving Sayaka from the witch, Sendai, Asunaro, etc)
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[x] Let Homura field that question
    --[x] If Homura ignores it, do likewise.
    ---[x] If, and only if, Sayaka keeps pressing the issue with Homura, or asks us explicitly:
    ----[x] Tell her it ties into some deeply personal things, as well as some very sensitive information. Homura has good reasons to decide not to answer, and I support her decision.
    ---[x] Either way, drop the subject.
    --[x] If Homura decides to answer, support her.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X]Null
    [X] meguca are for saving
    [X] meguca are for befriending
    [X] to Sayaka - If it isn't a matter of retribution, could that question be dropped? Homura is on the spot if you insist. Give her a few months?
    [X] Homura. Saving people who will accept being saved can't be wrong. And, when they help our friends, it matters more to us.
    [X] Oriko is changing. Not a threat now. We think we have her on your side, contributing to Mitakihara.
    -[X] As an ally, Oriko has already helped us build a bigger and safer community. She has skills to trade.
    -[X] Ask about her own evaluation and inspection of Oriko.
    [X] We keep taking them out to interact, and watch the results
    [X] What is the better alternative?
    [X] Offer hugs. Accept fear. Share hope.
    [X] Plan joint agreement of next stage Oriko imprisonment, rules. Future hearing, and sentencing.
    [X] return timestop
    [X] Group enchant? That soft rock is ready for other magic now...?
    [X] More on the GENERAL topic of adult help now? Anri is still out there, we still need development assistance, refugees are in mourning, ask alternatives. Ask preferences for how they want to see this happen.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Raiseth said:
[] Elaborate more on
- [] Oriko's precognition
-- [] You believe and have a strong supporting evidence that the intent of the Wish affects its outcome and Meguca's powers. If Oriko wanted to die at the moment of making her Wish, then her precognition will allow her to seek the noblest ways to do so, thus feeding her fatalism, creating a feedback loop of depression. It was this very condition we've found her in.( simplify it? )
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Do we really need to do this? I feel like we've given Sayaka enough food for thought, and she is thinking about it rather than continuing her temper tantrum. What is worth mentioning is the problem with Oriko's soul and how it could kill her if left untreated, as that is a major reason we're rushing this so much.

Otherwise, my instinct would be to back off a bit and let them process. Maybe just end the conversation, asking them to give some thought to what solution they'd be satisfied with? We want a change sooner rather than later, but not necessarily right now.
 
The main thing to keep in mind here, is that Homura's worldview forces her to believe that this Oriko is the same person as the one that killed Madoka. She must believe that, because if she doesn't, if she accepts that the people in the time loops are distinct individuals who don't carry the blame for prior actions...

Then Madoka, the Madoka she wished for, is already dead and beyond her reach.
 
Firnagzen said:
Homura makes a low noise in the back of her throat, and unwinds one arm far enough to make a tiny beckoning gesture at Mami.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Aw, Homu....

...

Skelm said:
She hasn't actually killed any past versions of O&K, and hasn't even killed these ones who actually are a threat. She's traumatized, not murderous.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This has come up a few times:
Firnagzen said:
You cock your head, reminded of something. "Speaking of which. Why isn't Oriko dead? I figured you'd kill her after... what she did."

"I did, for a while. But I noticed, a few loops later, that I didn't have to waste my time on it; she would simply never contract by herself. I'm not sure why she and Kirika contracted that once, but I just stopped bothering," Homura says. "It was-"

"-an anomaly," you finish. "And you've never seen her contract again?"

"Not until this loop," Homura confirms.

"Strange," you comment. Very strange indeed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Redshirt Army said:
The main thing to keep in mind here, is that Homura's worldview forces her to believe that this Oriko is the same person as the one that killed Madoka. She must believe that, because if she doesn't, if she accepts that the people in the time loops are distinct individuals who don't carry the blame for prior actions...

Then Madoka, the Madoka she wished for, is already dead and beyond her reach.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
About that. Taking Violin!kwysiko as an example, I've wondered whether maybe the universes she hops into have the same Madoka but not necessarily the same everyone else.

Other than that... we'll, we basically have been trying to get Oriko to change, to become less depressed and weighted down by other people's expectations and accusations, and to want to live for her own sake. So Oriko was the same (almost) as she was in previous loops, but we're holding onto that Oriko was never 100% a monster and could in fact be convinced to grow out of her issues.

... It is because we know Oriko overcomes her issues in one timeline that we're so sure we can help this Oriko do the same. Wonder if we should mention that. Though Sayaka is here...
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 5, 2018 at 5:38 AM, finished with 135515 posts and 23 votes.
  • [X] Answer Homura: Because I believe that I was given the knowledge I woke up with so I could fix things, so I could help people. That whoever or whatever was behind it wanted me to have empathy for everyone I knew about, even Oriko. But that doesn't change what she's done in the past, and if I thought she would try to do anything like that again, then I would help you stop her. Whatever it would take. The three of you, Hitomi, Madoka, you're my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power. Also, I think that we might be able to use this to make their imprisonment more secure.
    -[X] Subtext: I think Madoka wished me into being, and Madoka wouldn't want us to be cruel to Oriko. But that doesn't mean I'll help Oriko be able to hurt Madoka -- please don't think my kindness means I would side with her against you.
    [X] Cut in with Sayaka: It ties into some different, deeply personal things for Homura. I'm not saying not to ask her, or that she should or shouldn't answer, because that's not my place. I'm just saying it's connected to a lot of other, really heavy things for Homura, so that you know just how big of a question you're asking her. So that if she doesn't want to answer, you'll know why. Then pull back a moment so Homura can decide whether she wants to get into that, knowing that Sayaka shouldn't be offended if she declines to answer. (If she does, break vote here, because that'd be huge!)
    -[X] Subtext: I have just been talking about really deep personal history knowledge for Oriko of all people, so my being protective of Homura on this subject ought to be quickly tied to that, to help reinforce that Sayaka's question is bigger than she thinks it is.
    [X] Elaborate more on Oriko's precognition and vision, motives for specific actions, bring up her tip that helped save Sayaka from the witch, and the different sorts of blind-spots Feathers and I produce in her precog. And that I have reason to trust what she was saying when first captured because (shamefully) I had threatened Kirika with a fate worse than death if she didn't answer truthfully.
    -[X] Subtext: I will do things I will hate myself for afterwards to protect my friends.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Goal: Re-assure we're on her side.
    --[X] We're just someone who helps people.
    --[X] We will stop Oriko if she tries anything.
    --[X] Our metaknowledge and observations make us believe this is the best way forward.
    -[X] Potentially:
    --[X] Point lives saved and alliances made because we're like this.
    --[X] Oriko foreseeing her own death, at Homura's, Sayaka's, or our hands.
    --[X] Consequences of treating prisoners (and teenagers) inhumanely.
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[X] Let Homura field the question.
    --[X] If necessary, intervene in favour of Homura keeping her secrets.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    [x] Answer Homura
    -[x] On a personal level? Same as with everyone else; I want to help. I believe that everything can be fixed. Meguca are for saving.
    --[x] I sound naive. I know. But I believe I have this information about people for a reason. To help everyone I can.
    ---[x] I know there are people, like the insane serial killer magical girl who hoards souls gems, who are beyond anything but the most extreme forms of "help". If I thought Oriko was like that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl.
    --[x] Oriko did a lot of bad things. She could have done more. We stopped her. If I even suspected she was plotting anything, then I wouldn't hesitate to stop her again. I would never let her hurt you three, Hitomi, Madoka- you're all my friends, and I won't let anyone do anything to my friends if it's in my power to stop it. And I was given a lot of power.
    ---[x] That said, with the information I have, I believe this is the best course of action to make sure it never comes to that.
    -[x] More practically? Imprisoning meguca is difficult and expensive. We have limited resources and people. Meguca justice must be preventative, not punitive. We applied that principle in Sendai; whether we like it or not, it's proven itself so far.
    --[x] Oriko and Kirika are extremely useful assets. They've already helped save a lot of people.
    ---[x] Elaborate if necessary (e.g. Masami and Hiroko, Fukushima, saving Sayaka from the witch, Sendai, Asunaro, etc)
    [X] Sayaka:
    -[x] Let Homura field that question
    --[x] If Homura ignores it, do likewise.
    ---[x] If, and only if, Sayaka keeps pressing the issue with Homura, or asks us explicitly:
    ----[x] Tell her it ties into some deeply personal things, as well as some very sensitive information. Homura has good reasons to decide not to answer, and I support her decision.
    ---[x] Either way, drop the subject.
    --[x] If Homura decides to answer, support her.
    [X] Vote in abeyance
    -[X] Specifically note that I welcome suggestions for security measures.
    [X]Null
    [X] meguca are for befriending
    [X] to Sayaka - If it isn't a matter of retribution, could that question be dropped? Homura is on the spot if you insist. Give her a few months?
    [X] Homura. Saving people who will accept being saved can't be wrong. And, when they help our friends, it matters more to us.
    [X] Oriko is changing. Not a threat now. We think we have her on your side, contributing to Mitakihara.
    -[X] As an ally, Oriko has already helped us build a bigger and safer community. She has skills to trade.
    -[X] Ask about her own evaluation and inspection of Oriko.
    [X] We keep taking them out to interact, and watch the results
    [X] What is the better alternative?
    [X] Offer hugs. Accept fear. Share hope.
    [X] Plan joint agreement of next stage Oriko imprisonment, rules. Future hearing, and sentencing.
    [X] return timestop
    [X] Group enchant? That soft rock is ready for other magic now...?
    [X] More on the GENERAL topic of adult help now? Anri is still out there, we still need development assistance, refugees are in mourning, ask alternatives. Ask preferences for how they want to see this happen.
Click to expand...
 
Redshirt Army said:
The main thing to keep in mind here, is that Homura's worldview forces her to believe that this Oriko is the same person as the one that killed Madoka. She must believe that, because if she doesn't, if she accepts that the people in the time loops are distinct individuals who don't carry the blame for prior actions...

Then Madoka, the Madoka she wished for, is already dead and beyond her reach.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Compromise between the two viewpoints, then?

This Oriko and the Oriko that killed Madoka started off as the same person, but they evolved in different directions due to changes in their environment, their choices in response, and the meddling of those with outside knowledge.

What was the exact date of Oriko's attack on Mitakhara Middle? Because we might be able to argue that by virtue of us locking her down, we've stopped this Oriko from ever reaching that point...

I dunno. I'm tired.

EDIT: Ninja'd
 
Last edited:
So, hmmm... One answer is that we know, thanks to meta, that this time is a turning point for O, and we know at least one version of her, thanks to some coincidences, managed to overcome and make peace. Homu probably didn't even find out this O contracted.

That's the 'logical' side of things, I think, which might be the best angle with Homy, I think.

From a more emotional/existential answer, we're doing this because it's what we do. And despite there being so many people who should have cared and prrvented this, it ended up being up to us; if we didn't care, O would be dead, and with her, so would others, like Masami and a lot of people at Sendai.

... Oriko was indirectly instrumental in our alliance with Yuki, wasn't she? In a way, she's already helping against Walp.
 
Mmmhm. I wonder if I weren't mistaken in my previous line of thought. Homura might actually respond to an emotional appeal better than a logical one.

After all, Homura isn't really a very logical person, and her main driving force is, in fact, very emotional.
 
[]Beyond the political theory angle/desire to be a benign shadow government? The notion of prisoners dying of gem blackening due to nobody capable of making them cleanse if you aren't around drives you crazy. Anri at least, has Fukushima.
 
While other arguments can contribute, I think the most important argument to Homura is 'how does this help Madoka'. If we want to convince her to give Oriko a bit more leeway, I think we will need to present at least one argument for how it could help Madoka.

Of course, this is probably only enough to have her begrudgingly accept that while not truly changing her opinion on Oriko. If we want to do that, we'll need additional arguments. (Our explanation on Oriko's past may have helped a bit with that already)

Also, to explain why we're defending Oriko, we could bring up that with our meta-knowledge, we've already seen pretty much everyone we know at their worst. If we imprison Oriko for actions she COULD have done(and has done in a past timeline), how can we justify not imprisoning Mami, too? Or heck, ourselves, for the threat to Witch out Kirika? Obviously we can't tell Mami or Sayaka about the things they could've done though. Especially not Mami.

(oh gosh my first post on this forum I hope I didn't say something really stupid)

EDIT: (oh gosh so many hugs? <3 to everyone here)
 
Last edited:
There's a crucial thing that I don't think we've said yet which is also the primary answer to Homura's question:

[ ] "Because she's dying."
[ ] Do her crimes merit death?
[ ] Explain how Oriko's soul is tying itself into a Klein bottle due to wish rejection. That's why she lost her powers.
[ ] She's been useful to us. Without her visions, we'd have lost Masami and Hiroko, the war in Sendai would have killed far more people, Fukushima would be underwater and radioactive, and we would have lost Sayaka to that witch.

I feel that we're dangerously close to losing Homura's trust here. Sayaka might respond to the justice argument, but Homura needs the utilitarian one: Oriko's visions would be a strategic asset.
 
The Narrator said:
There's a crucial thing that I don't think we've said yet which is also the primary answer to Homura's question:

[ ] "Because she's dying."
[ ] Do her crimes merit death?
[ ] Explain how Oriko's soul is tying itself into a Klein bottle due to wish rejection. That's why she lost her powers.
[ ] She's been useful to us. Without her visions, we'd have lost Masami and Hiroko, the war in Sendai would have killed far more people, Fukushima would be underwater and radioactive, and we would have lost Sayaka to that witch.

I feel that we're dangerously close to losing Homura's trust here. Sayaka might respond to the justice argument, but Homura needs the utilitarian one: Oriko's visions would be a strategic asset.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I like this one, but I believe we should also add to the top:

[ ] "All meguca can be saved."
 
Important note: telling Homu that only she and Madoka may be the same person in every loop comes dangerously close to the Potentialbomb. Tread carefully.

Edit: actually, we know this is true because Madoka saw the previous loop in a dream. So Homu's wish is actually definitely operating like that.

[ ] Apologize and drop Sayaka and Mami from the timestop
[ ] "I have information that may exonerate Oriko, but it is connected to an infohazard that may negatively impact your ability to save Madoka in subsequent loops."
[ ] "Would you consent to me deleting your memory after?"

Ie. we tell Homu the Pbomb adjacent info about Oriko, Homu writes down how convincing she finds it, then we reset her memory to before. Blackbox the infohazard.
 
Last edited:
Another angle, more utilitarian.

[]Beyond political theory? Beyond ideals?Do you really want Kyubey rabblerousing against us as capricious tyrants? How many rebels would we be forced to imprison or kill if that happened?
 
Last edited:
LadyLynn said:
While other arguments can contribute, I think the most important argument to Homura is 'how does this help Madoka'. If we want to convince her to give Oriko a bit more leeway, I think we will need to present at least one argument for how it could help Madoka.

Of course, this is probably only enough to have her begrudgingly accept that while not truly changing her opinion on Oriko. If we want to do that, we'll need additional arguments. (Our explanation on Oriko's past may have helped a bit with that already)

Also, to explain why we're defending Oriko, we could bring up that with our meta-knowledge, we've already seen pretty much everyone we know at their worst. If we imprison Oriko for actions she COULD have done(and has done in a past timeline), how can we justify not imprisoning Mami, too? Or heck, ourselves, for the threat to Witch out Kirika? Obviously we can't tell Mami or Sayaka about the things they could've done though. Especially not Mami.

(oh gosh my first post on this forum I hope I didn't say something really stupid)

EDIT: (oh gosh so many hugs? <3 to everyone here)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I don't think what Homura wants from us is arguments, but rather reassurance that she can still trust us. Sabrina's whole relationship with Homura runs on trust bordering on blind faith, that we can actually fix everything because that's what Madoka wished for the previous loop.

Her main fear here is that we're being manipulated by Oriko into doing this, rather than acting of our own volition. That's what we need to quash. We've already achieved things she thought impossible, so as long as she thinks we're genuinely trying to "fix" Oriko, I think she'll budge a little bit.
 
We could maybe mention the fact Oriko's precog'd her own death, sometimes at our hands?

The Narrator said:
There's a crucial thing that I don't think we've said yet which is also the primary answer to Homura's question:

[ ] "Because she's dying."
[ ] Do her crimes merit death?
[ ] Explain how Oriko's soul is tying itself into a Klein bottle due to wish rejection. That's why she lost her powers.
[ ] She's been useful to us. Without her visions, we'd have lost Masami and Hiroko, the war in Sendai would have killed far more people, Fukushima would be underwater and radioactive, and we would have lost Sayaka to that witch.

I feel that we're dangerously close to losing Homura's trust here. Sayaka might respond to the justice argument, but Homura needs the utilitarian one: Oriko's visions would be a strategic asset.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oriko's Soul is back to normal. Just looking 'defeated'.
 
[] "Because everything can be fixed."
-[] If she was some insane villain you woudn't be doing this. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl you've met.
[] To Sayaka: poking into Homura's past is a big no-no. She's been through much more than any of us.

Referencing Madoka's wish is definitely the correct course of action. Homura doesn't care about logic. The entire point of Homura's story is that logic can go fuck itself. She doesn't approach her core problems logically and disdains logic in favor of emotion when it comes to interacting with others.

Arguments like "do Oriko's crimes really merit her death" wash off Homura like water. Because Homura sees Madoka's murderer, and wants to kill her.
 
Last edited:
The Narrator said:
There's a crucial thing that I don't think we've said yet which is also the primary answer to Homura's question:

[ ] "Because she's dying."
[ ] Do her crimes merit death?
[ ] Explain how Oriko's soul is tying itself into a Klein bottle due to wish rejection. That's why she lost her powers.
[ ] She's been useful to us. Without her visions, we'd have lost Masami and Hiroko, the war in Sendai would have killed far more people, Fukushima would be underwater and radioactive, and we would have lost Sayaka to that witch.

I feel that we're dangerously close to losing Homura's trust here. Sayaka might respond to the justice argument, but Homura needs the utilitarian one: Oriko's visions would be a strategic asset.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is true. Homura likely would not respond well to an emotionally or morally driven argument right now: I believe she is afraid that her 'Madoka must be safe' goal is coming into conflict with our 'save everyone' goal, and that our naivete may be clouding our judgement.

The 'she's dying' argument together with talking about the ways she's been useful probably works best here, being good for both Homura's pragmatism and Sayaka's morality.

...looking at newly made posts, however, Roomba might have a point too. Perhaps the primary fear she has is that Oriko is manipulating us. Perhaps we should mention something we are clearly disagreed with Oriko on? Like the fact that we're completely rejecting Oriko's... Martyr complex, or whatever you want to call it?

EDIT: Ah, I forgot about Oriko's soul gem having partially recovered and just 'looking defeated'. Woops. Well, the 'dying' thing doesn't work, then.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top