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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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The way I see it, Sabrina isn't naive.
She made it her life's goal to help every Meguca on the planet. Granted, it's very ambitious, difficult and more thankless than she'd care, but it's possible. Achievable. I'd go as far as saying probable, because there is a goddess on our side. :V

Thus, her goal isn't naive by definition. How she goes around accomplishing it, though, is largely up to us.

Huh, I suddenly had an idea to run a vote poll "Why are we arguing for Oriko Mikuni" and telepathy-ing the results directly to Homura.:confused:

On second thought, nope. Homumom doesn't deserve our brain damage.
 
Kaizuki said:
Arguments like "do Oriko's crimes really merit her death" wash off Homura like water. Because Homura sees Madoka's murderer, and wants to kill her.
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That part's for Sayaka's sake. The strategic asset stuff is for Homura's. Both are true.


Onmur said:
Oriko's Soul is back to normal. Just looking 'defeated'.
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Then why the urgent need to lift her house arrest, if she's not getting any worse?
 
The Narrator said:
That part's for Sayaka's sake. The strategic asset stuff is for Homura's. Both are true.



Then why the urgent need to lift her house arrest, if she's not getting any worse?
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We're not lifting the house arrest, but since Oriko's been doing everything she can to cooperate and help, specially today, we need to grant her something good in order to reinforce and validate her doing good (by our methods, rather than her... questionable ones).

This part is simply because Oriko's a teenager. She needs this; if she doesn't get positive reinforcement for doing good, she will turn back to her old ways. And we couldn't really blame her, we know how much literally everyone who should have helped Oriko turned against her and/or abandoned her instead.

And this is specially important in Oriko's case, as she's been betrayed and attacked into being suicidal. And then KB offered her a Contract. So her Wish reinforced her suicidal feelings.

If anything, she's better off for her Wish rejection than she was before. Still needs to figure out some things, though.

Finally, while Oriko's agreed to the house arrest, she's been asking about when it'd end since day... one? Two? Not sure, but pretty early on. That might have to do with the fact it's the place she found her father's corpse.
 
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Alright, I'll try and collect the totality of our opinions on the Oriko Question. Par for the course, I will be exaggerating for comedic effects.

1. ( not actually an opinion I've seen expressed, but hey. ) Shoot her in the head and be done with it. I will call it Homurism.
2. She's getting her just desserts. In fact, locking her in a mansion with her girlfriend is far too lenient. I.e. Seykuunity.
3. We should let her out so everyone can be friends with each other again! The school of Madoka-mi.
4. Move her to another secure location where she will not have flashbacks of finding hanged corpses of her dead family members, for example. Huh... Inner Mumi, perhaps? Somehow, doesn't feel quite right.

Anything I miss?
 
Kaizuki said:
[] "Because everything can be fixed."
-[] If she was some insane villain you woudn't be doing this. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl you've met.
[] To Sayaka: poking into Homura's past is a big no-no. She's been through much more than any of us.

Referencing Madoka's wish is definitely the correct course of action. Homura doesn't care about logic. The entire point of Homura's story is that logic can go fuck itself. She doesn't approach her core problems logically and disdains logic in favor of emotion when it comes to interacting with others.

Arguments like "do Oriko's crimes really merit her death" wash off Homura like water. Because Homura sees Madoka's murderer, and wants to kill her.
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Ironically, this is an extremely manipulative thing to say. It's truthful and honest, in that this is what we actually believe, but it's intentionally pressing at Homura's vulnerabilities in order to get her to do what we want.

Not that I object to this course of action, but it is ironic considering the previous update had Sayaka accuse us of manipulating her when all we were trying to do is segue into the Oriko topic gently.

Also, now that I've posted this, there's a chance Sabrina will think about it, making her manipulative as well, rather than just us questers. My own little memetic hazard.
 
5. Indefinite Detention without a coherent policy is automatically bad and if we use it it's something KB can rabblerouse with. School of Legal Theorism/PR.
 
Raiseth said:
Alright, I'll try and collect the totality of our opinions on the Oriko Question. Par for the course, I will be exaggerating for comedic effects.

1. ( not actually an opinion I've seen expressed, but hey. ) Shoot her in the head and be done with it. I will call it Homurism.
2. She's getting her just desserts. In fact, locking her in a mansion with her girlfriend is far too lenient. I.e. Seykuunity.
3. We should let her out so everyone can be friends with each other again! The school of Madoka-mi.
4. Move her to another secure location where she will not have flashbacks of finding hanged corpses of her dead family members, for example. Huh... Inner Mumi, perhaps? Somehow, doesn't feel quite right.

Anything I miss?
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6. We should burn her house down. Retributive Inanity
 
[ ] Because everything can be fixed.
-[ ] Does she expect us to not try to help somebody?
--[ ] If we didn't help, if we didn' care, Oriko would be dead. And then so would be some of our friends.
-[ ] Supporting that, our metaknowledge has shown us Oriko's currently at a turning point. She can end up bad, and die; or she can realize her life is worth living, and... die fighting Walpurgisnacht, but without hurting anybody.
--[ ] Everything we've seen so far makes us hopeful we can help her do the right thing.
 
We can just ask Homura if she thinks we are being manipulated.

We could also point that she saved Sayakas life too.

We could also bring up that her will to live is slowly eroding after we got rid of her original purpose.
 
Roomba said:
Ironically, this is an extremely manipulative thing to say. It's truthful and honest, in that this is what we actually believe, but it's intentionally pressing at Homura's vulnerabilities in order to get her to do what we want.

Not that I object to this course of action, but it is ironic considering the previous update had Sayaka accuse us of manipulating her when all we were trying to do is segue into the Oriko topic gently.

Also, now that I've posted this, there's a chance Sabrina will think about it, making her manipulative as well, rather than just us questers. My own little memetic hazard.
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Conversation is manipulation, Roomba. "Bringing someone to see your point of view", how is that not manipulation? It's when it's nasty-plotty, trying to make someone think things they wouldn't want to think if they had all the facts, that it's not okay.

Here's a fact: Madokami forgave Oriko.

If Homura was aware that Madoka would look at this and say, "Sabrina is right," and we know that she would, then she would (however grudgingly) agree to this.
 
Redshirt Army said:
The main thing to keep in mind here, is that Homura's worldview forces her to believe that this Oriko is the same person as the one that killed Madoka. She must believe that, because if she doesn't, if she accepts that the people in the time loops are distinct individuals who don't carry the blame for prior actions...

Then Madoka, the Madoka she wished for, is already dead and beyond her reach.
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Hmmm.
Counterpoint - Madoka is Madoka always, everything that truly formed her was her path from before the loop began. Same with Sakura Kyoko, so it's not a unique happenstance.

Meanwhile, Oriko, Sayaka, Mami - even Homura herself - are very much people who were shaped by the events of the month leading up to Walpurgisnacht. Even if in Homura's case her particular "month" has happened over several loops.
 
Torgamous said:
We don't have to say it that way, but it is the correct answer. We're speaking up for her because she is broken and we want to fix her. All the other stuff is just detailing in what way she's broken. Would

[] Meguca are for saving.

be better?
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I'm not sure. The reason I considered the original phrasing manipulative is that it implies to Homura that, by disagreeing with us here, she is going against Madoka's will.

It's fine either way as far as I'm concerned.

Kaizuki said:
Conversation is manipulation, Roomba. "Bringing someone to see your point of view", how is that not manipulation? It's when it's nasty-plotty, trying to make someone think things they wouldn't want to think if they had all the facts, that it's not okay.

Here's a fact: Madokami forgave Oriko.

If Homura was aware that Madoka would look at this and say, "Sabrina is right," and we know that she would, then she would (however grudgingly) agree to this.
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Hey, I think it's fine. It denies her agency, but considering how troubled Homura is in general, it's unavoidable to some extent when interacting with her.
 
Thoughts:

  • "I want to save everyone. Oriko qualifies." Reference Madoka's wish as possibly being the reason you exist.
  • "Rather than punishment, my idea of justice is centered around reformation, and Oriko *seems* to be reformed." Explain the difference between then and now, and emphasize that friends and family will be safe.
  • It's very hard to hate somebody when you understand them on such a deep level. Naturally, you do feel some level of sympathy towards Oriko. Combined with her prediction of her own death in the near future, this has you scrambling for some way to save her. From herself, from some mystery assailant, from fate, whatever.
  • For context, if we set up some sort of standard justice system that applied equally to everybody, Oriko's actual crimes, coupled with her intentions and motivation, sees her as objectively deserving a lighter sentence than Anri or Akkiko, for example. One is raging against the world and out for blood, the other is cold and calculating and kills with ease for personal profit. Oriko, on the other hand, wants to save the world and also happens to be a suicidal idiot.
To be clear, these are not necessarily things that I think we should bring up, but they are definitely things that color the situation and our own perception of it. That last point in particular would rub Homura the wrong way, but it's still relevant to our own feelings on the subject whether we're willing to bring it up or not.

So... As far as explaining the situation goes, that right there is most of it.
 
We don't need to overcomplicate this vote. We've lined up our arguments in previous votes. We can keep going forever. All we need is the key to Homura. That's it. And that's just a single sentence: "I believe that everything can be fixed." Adding anything more just distracts from that single point.
 
Vebyast said:
We don't need to overcomplicate this vote. We've lined up our arguments in previous votes. We can keep going forever. All we need is the key to Homura. That's it. And that's just a single sentence: "I believe that everything can be fixed." Adding anything more just distracts from that single point.
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That's why my standing is three lines :D

I should X that.

[X] "Because everything can be fixed."
-[X] If she was some insane villain you woudn't be doing this. But she's not. She's just as much a victim as pretty much every magical girl you've met.
[X] To Sayaka: poking into Homura's past is a big no-no. She's been through much more than any of us.
 
Still think we need a cynical reason to convince Homura we aren't subverted.

[x]Beyond Political Theory? Beyond the idealism that everything can be fixed? I want to make it harder for Kyubey to rabblerouse against us as capricious tyrants. We would need to rehabilitate or kill a lot of people if that happened. And then there's the possibility of people we care about becoming collateral damage.

Edit:Removed the warning Sayaka off.
 
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[q] We don't want to allow her to hurt more people, we won't let her hurt our friends, ever. But we don't want to let her suffer indiscriminately either, if we give up in helping her, it will set a precedent; how can we expect to fix everything if we can't fix one thing?
 
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