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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Shadowhisker said:
So, in summary, "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit"?
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"It's magic. If something suggests an unreasonable result, then it's probably unreasonable."

For example, establishing that some kind of hammerspace seems to be available to most magical girls, establishing that that hammerspace has rules, and then extrapolating those rules into city-destroying events? Common sense suggests that since it hasn't happened yet, it's probably not going to happen.
 
Firnagzen said:
"It's magic. If something suggests an unreasonable result, then it's probably unreasonable."

For example, establishing that some kind of hammerspace seems to be available to most magical girls, establishing that that hammerspace has rules, and then extrapolating those rules into city-destroying events? Common sense suggests that since it hasn't happened yet, it's probably not going to happen.
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Common sense says it is not going to happen by accident or just mucking about, if you want an earth shattering kaboom you'll have to work for it.
 
Onmur said:
Homura will make a protective enchantment for everyone.

"A hair pin for Mami, and another one for Sayaka."

"Thanks!"

"Cool."

"A hairband for Sabrina."

"Aw, thanks."

"A bracelet for Hitomi."

"Thanks, but I shouldn't need this?"

"... Right, you... won't."

"..."

"... Madoka, for you I enchanted this pin."

"Ohhh, cute!"

"Let me..."

"Sure!"

*Fixes pin to Madoka's shirt*

"I also got you an extra, just in case..."

"... OK?"

*Ties a bracelet around Madoka's wrist*

"And I replaced your hair ties so I could enchant them, too..."

"So that's where they went."

*Unties and re-fixes Madoka's hair*

"And also..."

*Clips an earring onto Madoka's ear*

"Uh..."

"This one's enchantment is extra strong, but only lasts a short while... And these are one-use..."

*Takes Madoka's hands and puts four rings on them*

*Blushes*

"..."

*Fixes a pin to Madoka's hair*

"Can you take you shoes off? These ones should fit you better, and are enchanted to protect you and help steady your footing in case you need to run..."

*Pulls out shoes from Shield*

"Um... I, Homura..."

"... What?"

*Gapes*

*Shoulders shaking, covers mouth with her hand*

*Face buried on Sabrina's shoulder*

*Squints through fingers*

"OK, OK, I'm gonna have to stop you there. You're layered Madoka in so many protective enchantments I'm having trouble seeing her. Thoroughly protected, maybe a little too much?"

"But what if the enchantments run out? Or if the fail? Or-"

"Homura, there's so much magic on Madoka, she's basically a beacon for Magical Girls."

"..."

*Looks at protective-enchantment-covered Madoka*

*Looks down*

"Um, I... the earring is nice? And maybe I can keep one of the r-rings?"

*Blinks*

"Rings?"

*Watches Madoka's hands closely*

*Fidgets*

*Blushes*

"I... I need to... I need..."

"To go work on those forewarning enchants I'm sure you can do."

"Right. That. Bye."

*Pops away*

"... Did that just happen?"

"No, seriously Madoka, take off some of that protective bling, I'm going blind just looking at you."

*Covers Sabrina's eyes*

"Mami you're amazing."

"Hmmm..."

*Hugs Sabrina*

*Hugs Mami*

*Suddenly three Sayaklones*

"Do you think I could have those rings?"

"By their powers combined, you are Captain Sayaka?"

"Hell yes."
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WWWWWWWWwwwWWWwwWW !! Fistbump, you win it, @Onmur.

Also, other ingredients, same recipe?

#######DRABBLE#####DRABBLE######

"Gimme?" rebbutted Sayaka. Homura tossed the freshly enchanted rock to her, and turned back to her workspace. She smoothly dipped a hand behind her shield, and drew a tidy flat poly bag out by one edge. It was a retail package with one of the middle school uniform sweaters folded within.

Homura gave it critical attention, and folded the bag open, shaking out the garment while removing pins and cardstock packing, placing those away from her on the table. She piled the the uniform in front of her, and changed her breathing, a feeling of tension entering the air.

As Sayaka, Sabrina and Mami traded quips on how to stress the shield rock, she began extending her magic into the clothing. Her intent was to practice a usable design at once, as her trial had worked well.

A shield charm was far from her idea of fully supporting and safeguarding anyone. Madoka least of all.

Oddly enough, her thinking on how to direct the magic came from her bluenette companion. It seems that gaming wasn't completely useless, after all.

She started chanting mnemonics, one after another.

Anti-Information Magic Wall!

Why not try to imagine balanced support, in an environment of magical conflict.


Anti-Life Cocoon!

Sabrina, of all people, was looking at her now, with eyes that were slowly becoming narrowed...

Bless of Magic Caster!

Body of Effulgent Beryl!

It was only her second try, but her imagination was firm.

Complete Invisibility!

Complete Vision!

Create Fortress!

Mami was watching her full-on as she worked, sipping her tea expectantly.

Cure Poison!

Delay Teleportation!

Discern Enemy!

Distant Vision!

Draconic Power!

Bless of Titania!

False Data Life!

Fly!

Freedom!

Gate!

Greater Full Potential!

Greater Hardening!

Greater Luck!

Greater Magic Shield!

Greater Resistance!

Greater Teleportation!

Haste!

Heavenly Aura!

Indomitability!

Infinity Wall!

Life Essence!

Magic Boost!

Magic Caster's Blessing!

Magic Ward: Holy!

Paranormal Intuition!

Perfect Unknowable!

Repel Undeath!

See Through!

Sense Enemy!

Sensor Boost!

Ultimate Disturb!

Wall of Protection from Arrows!
 
Hmm. If it's possible for magic to make antimatter with 4D rotation, but it has safeties that make it unlikely to happen by accident...

We should tell Mami about it. Sabrina already has unlimited biggatons, but this way Mami can set up an Ultimate Finale. A grain of sand or so (and we know Mami can work with such fidelity, given the single speck of "gunpowder" she showed us) should have an effect on the scale of a tactical nuclear weapon.

Of course, Mami probably already knows about it...
 
Redshirt Army said:
Hmm. If it's possible for magic to make antimatter with 4D rotation, but it has safeties that make it unlikely to happen by accident...

We should tell Mami about it. Sabrina already has unlimited biggatons, but this way Mami can set up an Ultimate Finale. A grain of sand or so (and we know Mami can work with such fidelity, given the single speck of "gunpowder" she showed us) should have an effect on the scale of a tactical nuclear weapon.

Of course, Mami probably already knows about it...
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That may well be how she makes her gun powder. How else do you go from ribbons to explosives?
 
So, hey. Could it be most Magical Girl conjuring tricks are based on 4D rotation?
 
Phigment said:
"Only spreads through three dimensions" is one possible answers. "Spreads through four dimensions, but humans don't have enough nearby gravity sources outside our 3D slice of sufficient magnitude to affect our historical measurements" is another.
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Er, the point is that what Skelm is saying is that if it spreads through four dimensions, Earth's gravity would "leak out" and be measurably weaker.

However...
Skelm said:
We understand gravity very well. We can see what happens if you apply the equations to 4 spacial dimensions instead of 3.
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What if the equations are wrong? Or, rather, the idea of it being based on the surface area of a sphere is wrong, and the inverse square is just how it is (or has some other explanation) rather than being able to be explained in terms of a metaphor like density of flux lines etc.

Redshirt Army said:
It implies that the trick involves more then a simple 4D translation/rotation, though.
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Or maybe matter isn't truly flat in 4-space (this is, of course, another variation of "maybe the equations are wrong/incomplete". If we can only observe three dimensions, we can't make observations to confirm whether our extrapolations of how it would work in 4-space are correct or not). If you have a two-dimensional shape you can flip it 180 degrees in 3-space to get the mirror image, but with a physical "flat" three-dimensional object, it's not the mirror image because the top face is now pointed down.

Firnagzen said:
If you wanted to produce matter by 4D rotation, you could. And it would take a specific effort and intent to do so.
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I have to wonder what that omake was a warning of, then. Especially with the extra-ominous "Some of them still apply, even."
 
AuraTwilight said:
That was what was implied by the reveal that it's how Mami did her teacup thing.
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No, I mean... Tiro finale. Muskets. Swords. Spears, chainlink barriers, hammers, grossly insufficient numbers of pants, all the magically conjured objects are made of magic stuff, could it be matter rotated into existence from the fourth dimension and held in place by magic?
 
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Random832 said:
Er, the point is that what Skelm is saying is that if it spreads through four dimensions, Earth's gravity would "leak out" and be measurably weaker.

However...

What if the equations are wrong? Or, rather, the idea of it being based on the surface area of a sphere is wrong, and the inverse square is just how it is (or has some other explanation) rather than being able to be explained in terms of a metaphor like density of flux lines etc.



Or maybe matter isn't truly flat in 4-space (this is, of course, another variation of "maybe the equations are wrong/incomplete". If we can only observe three dimensions, we can't make observations to confirm whether our extrapolations of how it would work in 4-space are correct or not). If you have a two-dimensional shape you can flip it 180 degrees in 3-space to get the mirror image, but with a physical "flat" three-dimensional object, it's not the mirror image because the top face is now pointed down.



I have to wonder what that omake was a warning of, then. Especially with the extra-ominous "Some of them still apply, even."
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From the beginning of the Quest, up until Mami broke, Firn was writing a normal existential despair filled PMMM Quest. So Sabrina could have ended the quest by accident then, but now Firn is more lenient and it would take a real blunder of a vote to do so.
 
Anyways, regarding Homura's shield enchantment research, we should at least start with refining the shields themselves. maybe selective permeability (ie not excluding allies, allow the recipient to enter and leave the barrier at will, exclude harmful substances), IFF of some kind, and activate/deactivate at will type of stuff. More esoteric stuff such as warning systems and trackers should come after shielding becomes reliable and feasible.
 
Jonen C said:
No, I mean... Tiro finale. Muskets. Swords. Spears, chainlink barriers, hammers, grossly insufficient numbers of pants, all the magically conjured objects are made of magic stuff, could it be matter rotated into existence from the fourth dimension and held in place by magic?
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That seems unnecessary unless Firn plans on doing a "surprise! All this bullshit was actually 'reductionist'!" thing like in Worm. Which, in addition to being unnecessary itself, would also defeat the purpose of both this quest and Kyuubey.

Also, if it worked that way dismissing summoned objects would be as hard as summoning them.
 
Torgamous said:
That seems unnecessary unless Firn plans on doing a "surprise! All this bullshit was actually 'reductionist'!" thing like in Worm. Which, in addition to being unnecessary itself, would also defeat the purpose of both this quest and Kyuubey.

Also, if it worked that way dismissing summoned objects would be as hard as summoning them.
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Yeah, extrapolating what can be done the physics behind the supernatural and how they things play into each other is great fun and one can pour hours into it... but while I think it's even a useful line of inquiry with working out possibilities and discerning stuff like how Kyuubey might work, one can draw conclusions too far from a single aspect of things.
 
"Well - there you go. Wanna read that?" - Monika

"Um... Are we in Silent Hill all of a sudden?" - Main Character, Doki Doki Literature Club

Edit: Oops - wrong thread.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Not that this physics discussion isn't fascinating, but maybe we should refocus on the approach we take to discuss Oriko and Kirika with Homura and Sayaka?
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Probably a good idea.

Although ... We could combine the two and propose shifting the Kures ana/katawards. It gets them out of house arrest, while making them unable to interact with Madoka so Homura's happy, and not being so free Sayaka thinks they're not being punished.
:p
 
Redshirt Army said:
Not that this physics discussion isn't fascinating, but maybe we should refocus on the approach we take to discuss Oriko and Kirika with Homura and Sayaka?
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I will re-propose my vote to get the ball rolling:

The current plan leads in remarkably abruptly. I think that we need a transition. Additionally, we probably want some motivation for why we're bothering them with O&K right now other than "to be a good person, they've suffered enough". So I propose that we start by telling them that Oriko was predicting her death, and we motivate the lifting of restrictions by telling them that we think the house arrest is a likely contributor.

[x] Discuss O&K.
-[x] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.

-[x] Motive: Save Oriko.
--[x] She saw every path ending with her own death.
--[x] She lost her powers partially because Kirika convinced her to reject the visions and want to live.
--[x] You hope she's safe now, but you don't quite feel it. Especially with the house arrest.

-[x] Discuss house arrest.
--[x] Ask what they want.
--[x] Restitution: Financial reimbursement? Continued community service? Oriko enjoyed doing good today.
--[x] Complications: Ongoing psychological harm from confinement; Mikuni mansion; Kirika's family, no defenses or backup; Oriko's power was driving her to suicide-by-Homu and house arrest was a mechanism.
--[x] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? Sayaklones?
---[x] If Sayaklones, can Sayaka handle it? You'd worry about them keeping their cool around each other.
--[x] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't like making decrees.

-[x] Tentatively propose involving more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists, the Mikis...
 
I'm concerned about leading in with the motive of "Save Oriko" rather than "practical safety and effectiveness concerns", particularly when talking to Homura. Sayaka, we might be able to get with the saving meguca thing, but Homura, probably not. And also, since we're doing this as a group discussion, neither we nor Homura can bring up any reasoning that interacts with Homura's timecycle reasons. Those reasons will need to be addressed at some point, unless we're good enough with leading sentences, double meanings, and pointed Expressions/silences to communicate our arguments on that front anyway.
 
I'm having trouble seeing how "Save Oriko" will be effective motivation for either of Sayaka or Homura to hear us out, myself.

Sayaka would probably grudgingly go along with it if she's internalized that they're people at this point, but I think it's a bit early to rely on that at this point.

Hmm. I'm considering alternative segues myself.
 
I still think that we should have approached them separately. The things that play well with Sayaka make Homura think we've been turned, and the things that play well with Homura make Sayaka think we're being an asshole.
 
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