Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Phigment said:
No, I'm saying we don't know how gravity spreads through 4D space until we actually measure it.

"Only spreads through three dimensions" is one possible answers. "Spreads through four dimensions, but humans don't have enough nearby gravity sources outside our 3D slice of sufficient magnitude to affect our historical measurements" is another.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think you understand the problem I'm pointing at.

We understand gravity very well. We can see what happens if you apply the equations to 4 spacial dimensions instead of 3. The result is that gravity (and electromagnetism) will drop in strength as the cube of distance instead of the square. This would be really easy to detect, since there are no stable orbits under an inverse cube law. The problem isn't that there might be extra gravity, the problem is that the gravity would leak out of the observable universe and make everything fall apart.
 
Last edited:
Eh, trivial for us to measure, with Warehouse-kun helping us. Make Grief emit gravity at a force of our choosing. Then rotate it around A-K, measure force again, push "away" a bit, measure again.

I'm much more fired up about exploring what our native magic can achieve, in terms of SCIENCE.
Phigment said:
No, I'm saying we don't know how gravity spreads through 4D space until we actually measure it.

"Only spreads through three dimensions" is one possible answers. "Spreads through four dimensions, but humans don't have enough nearby gravity sources outside our 3D slice of sufficient magnitude to affect our historical measurements" is another.

I mean, think about the ever elusive "dark matter" that pop-science articles like to talk about, which is (in theory) largely non-interactive with the conventional matter we observe. One possible explanation, in PMAS, is that some dark matter is actually matter near to, but not fully intersecting, our specific 3D slice of spacetime, but still exerting force on us. It's wild hand-waving, but, eh...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In matters of the vote, this seems very useful. Thanks!
Conjured Blade said:
4 Goals of Imprisonment:

Retribution: Sayaka and the Mikis have some claim to this.
Deterrence: News spreads slowly in the magical girl world, and deterrence could almost as easily be achieved via trumped up charges so it is good not to focus on it as deterrence at this time. Telishment - Wikipedia
Incapacitation : Achieved but arguably no longer needed due to Oriko's loss of power.
Rehabilitation: Oriko has been convinced her power was leading her down counterproductive routes anyway, therefore achieved.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Could we not start by creating a framework for the discussion? This is a good model?
Also, ask them to debate us on "the best way to save Oriko?" We like to be open, so not trying to hide that.
 
Skelm said:
I don't think you understand the problem I'm pointing at.

We understand gravity very well. We can see what happens if you apply the equations to 4 spacial dimensions instead of 3. The result is that gravity (and electromagnetism) will drop in strength as the cube of distance instead of the square. This would be really easy to detect, since there are no stable orbits under an inverse cube law. The problem isn't that there might be extra gravity, the problem is that the gravity would leak out of the observable universe and make everything fall apart.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm comfortable with not being well-versed enough in physics to have a theory of 4-dimensional gravity I would bet money on.

We understand how gravity works in the context of 3-dimensional space well enough to make reliable and testable predictions in 3D space.
Either gravity in our slice only interacts within our observable slice, or it interacts with the rest of 4D space in a manner that is somehow not inconsistent with our 3D observations. Narrowing it down finer than that is beyond my pay grade.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Homura's shield doesn't store things. Like, at all. It has no "storage". It sends them forward in time to the moment Homura decides to "retrieve" them, which isn't the same thing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Um... When the heck was this ever established? I remember somebody in the thread suggesting this a while back, but it was neither confirmed nor widely accepted because it created way more problems than just having it be a bag of holding did.
 
Appletank said:
We should figure out a way to hard stop our trance state in case something goes wrong and we need to be conscious for it. If someone attacks us while we're in a trance, Mami needs to be able to yank our handbrake somehow.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Isn't this usually called an "unmaskable interrupt?" We don't have this capability in our silicon already?
 
justinkal said:
I wonder if Sayaka can create 'generic' enchanted devices that respond to stimuli by remotely activating the effect of the card she has placed inside that device.

Because then she can tell people that they activated her trap card :V
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[Q] Have Cardcaptor Sayaka make a trap card

[Q] Make a grief staff for Cardcaptor Sayaka
-[Q] Have her replicate it
 
We can perform four dimensional rotations.
A 180 degree fourth dimensional rotation converts matter into antimatter.
We ... no, wait, Mami can do it too. That means...

(SCREAMING IN KAGOME)
(This also casually defeats entropy directly, by the way.)
 
Last edited:
rkyeun said:
We can perform four dimensional rotations.
A 180 degree fourth dimensional rotation converts matter into antimatter.
We ... no, wait, Mami can do it too. That means...

(SCREAMING IN KAGOME)
(This also casually defeats entropy directly, by the way.)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Does it? Normal matter moving backwards through time looks like antimatter. I don't see any reason why simply rotating it through space (never mind the dimensionality) would flip the charge.
 
Roomba said:
Does it? Normal matter moving backwards through time looks like antimatter. I don't see any reason why simply rotating it through space (never mind the dimensionality) would flip the charge.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is a d. I can rotate it in two dimensions to look like a p, but not like a b. I'd need a q for that. The d and the p are both matter, but b and q are antimatter. Their tails go the other way and they have the opposite charge. I can't rotate one into being the other.
Give me a third dimension to move these two dimensional objects in, and I can pick the d up, flip it over 180 degrees, and put it down as a b.
The tail goes the other way now. The charge is reversed. That makes antimatter. This is called a parity flip, and it's important for CP symmetry. Flip a particle over, and reverse its charge, and it behaves like normal matter. Do only one of those things... and you have antimatter. This was later extended to CPT symmetry.
Give me a fourth dimension, and I can do the same to three-dimensional objects as I did to the d to make it a b.
Let me do it to a clock, and its hands will spin backwards and it will be made of antimatter.

(Suggestion to QM: When/if we try this, the magic should give it back to us just as matter, but still flipped over. For the sake of the world. In case Mami ever picks up a teacup with her other hand.)
 
Last edited:
Phigment said:
No, I'm saying we don't know how gravity spreads through 4D space until we actually measure it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Skelm said:
I don't think you understand the problem I'm pointing at.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think the issue Skelm and I are having (and that I also have with the anti-matter conversion, btw), is that our familiar laws of physics can be extrapolated to have meaningful results in a universe that has 4 axes instead of 3. There's no reason to assume that one of the axes obeys wildly different rules from the three we're familiar with, and in fact, imagining a force that only acts on one or two dimensions when there are more available seems absurd. How could gravity possibly make sense if it only propagated in two dimensions through our three-dimensional world? It would be inconsistent and arbitrary. So the revelation that there are actually four dimensions to the PMAS world raises exactly those same questions. A fourth axis shouldn't be radically different from the other three, but what we know of physics in this world suggests it either is radically different (perhaps created by/only accessible with magic?) or it isn't and our knowledge is seriously flawed.

Also, I have a science test. We should make a chibi and then have it turn to face kata-ward. That would put the chibi in an orthogonal hyperplane that intersects ours in two dimensions. It could give us a lot of interesting data. For instance, if we really are 4D wafers, the chibi should have an apparently one-dimensional silhouette if it turns edge on. Otherwise, we'll see a 2D shape and know the chibi actually has further structure in the fourth dimension. Then maybe try it with a rock to make sure whatever the result is isn't just true of our grief. Also, the chibi will still be operating in a 3D hyperplane, so it's possible to find light, air, gravity, etc. so we could try looking or walking around. Let's not try 180 degrees, because while I don't see how it would work, I will admit to not being entirely clear how 4D rotation affects subatomic particles and charge, so I'll assume that's too risky.
 
Last edited:
Omniatrix said:
while I don't see how it would work, I will admit to not being entirely clear how 4D rotation affects subatomic particles and charge, so I'll assume that's too risky.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The scary part isn't what happens while it's turning. The scary parts happen ENTIRELY under completely normal physics after the magic is gone and done with. Using laws that if they didn't work, neither would several devices we use on a fairly regular basis.
So the thing that matters is, are we performing a mathematical rotation, which makes it antimatter and kills us; a physical rotation where some fourth dimensional law we aren't aware of can happen to it and produce other results, or a magical rotation where intent make reality and we probably just get our normal matter back mirrored over as if it had just been shaped differently to start with.

Now depending on how this works (ie, not antimatter), we might be able to make a BLOODY FORTUNE selling diet foods. Because we can pick up a bar of chocolate and flip it over, and suddenly all the D-sugars are inert L-sugars that taste exactly the same. Zero calorie chocolate.

I am the insert of my forum.
Fanwank is my body and votes are my blood.
I have created over five thousand pages.
Unknown to sanity.
Nor known to despair.
Have withstood brain damage to get many Mumi hugs.
Yet Hitomi still thinks girls can't love girls.
So, as I wish--
UNLIMITED CAKE WORKS!​
 
Last edited:
rkyeun said:
The scary part isn't what happens while it's turning. The scary parts happen ENTIRELY under completely normal physics after the magic is gone and done with. Using laws that if they didn't work, neither would several devices we use on a fairly regular basis.
So the thing that matters is, are we performing a mathematical rotation, which makes it antimatter and kills us; a physical rotation where some fourth dimensional law we aren't aware of can happen to it and produce other results, or a magical rotation where intent make reality and we probably just get our normal matter back mirrored over as if it had just been shaped differently to start with.

Now depending on how this works (ie, not antimatter), we might be able to make a BLOODY FORTUNE selling diet foods. Because we can pick up a bar of chocolate and flip it over, and suddenly all the D-sugars are inert L-sugars that taste exactly the same. Zero calorie chocolate.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm going to need a citation on 4d rotations producing anti-matter. I've only ever heard of it in the context of time reversal.
 
@rkyeun

My understanding is that a 4D spatial rotation would only flip the chirality of matter, with a only a reversal across the temporal axis causing particles to flip into the associated antiparticles.

Certainly this seems consistent with PMAS, where Mami hasn't ever made a massive antimatter reaction with her teacup.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Where? Repost the link.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Article:
Simply speaking, charge conjugation is a symmetry between particles and antiparticles, and so CP-symmetry was proposed in 1957 by Lev Landau as the true symmetry between matter and antimatter. In other words, a process in which all particles are exchanged with their antiparticles was assumed to be equivalent to the mirror image of the original process.

There's three ways to make antimatter. Flip it like a mirror. Switch the charges. Reverse time.
 
Last edited:
Matou Sutegobana said:
So Mami could store guns in the fourth dimension like a personal pocket dimension arsenal.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
She does do that. Isn't there a scene in either rebellion or the show where she waves a ribbon and a pile o guns falls away from it? If not then there should have been. Mumi is awesome like that.

So she could literally do the whole Gate of Babylon trick. Mumi is absolutely the best.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top