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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Omniatrix said:
Except that the only time we've been gemmed it left us unconscious and unaware. It's possible to be an aware disembodied soul gem, apparently, but we don't know how yet. That would mean we would have to have Mami grab our soul gem for us if we do cut off, and there's always the (probably remote) possibility that we're going through a different dimension than she is and she won't be able to find it. It would kind of suck to permanently lose our soul gem in an alternate dimension.
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Have her wrap a ribbon around it. "Towards her" is going to move it into her position on the i,j,k or q axis no matter which way it's displaced in.
 
Aranfan said:
Have her wrap a ribbon around it. "Towards her" is going to move it into her position on the i,j,k or q axis no matter which way it's displaced in.
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I think it may have been more the concern that we're using the x, y, z, and then q axis as our fourth, and it's possibly Mami may be using the x, y, z, and, like, j axis, and can't reach q at all.
 
mCooperative said:
I think it may have been more the concern that we're using the x, y, z, and then q axis as our fourth, and it's possibly Mami may be using the x, y, z, and, like, j axis, and can't reach q at all.
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That's why we have her put a ribbon around the soul gem while it's in this position. Then we translate via grief both the soul gem and the ribbon. Then Mami can just pull it towards her, and even if we are using k and she's using j, it'll still get pulled towards the right position.
 
mCooperative said:
Ah, don't remember when that happened, but yeah,
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I was thinking of when Homura accidentally misjudged her distance and rope length during/after the Oriko fight, but now that I think back to it, I'm think that might have been because of the timestop, not a gemming. I know the "gemming someone usually puts their consciousness on pause" is kind of implied in canon by the way Sayaka reacts when it happens to her, but we may not have actual evidence either way.

Aranfan said:
Have her wrap a ribbon around it. "Towards her" is going to move it into her position on the i,j,k or q axis no matter which way it's displaced in.
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Yeah, that does seem like a better method, or have her be the one to move it, or both.
 
Before we forget, we should ask how detectable Grief is when we've rotated it a bit ana or kata. I'd guess still detectable, but at low enough intensity that they have to pull out the soul gem and do the radar things.
 
Vebyast said:
Before we forget, we should ask how detectable Grief is when we've rotated it a bit ana or kata. I'd guess still detectable, but at low enough intensity that they have to pull out the soul gem and do the radar things.
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Firnagzen said:
The Grief vanishes without fuss.

To your eyes, anyway. It's still there, in your Grief sense.
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Our grief sense is kind of an outlier, but it doesn't seem to have effected it at all?
 
Firnagzen said:
"Four dimensions," you say, showing her the block of Grief and popping it out of existence.

"Aw," Mami pouts. "You figured it out."

"Hmm?" you ask, wrapping your arm around her waist and pulling her into a hug. "Figured what out?"

Rather than answer, she holds up her hand and twists it, an empty teacup twisting out of the air to rest on the palm of her hand. Now that you're looking, you can see the twist of ribbon that flickers away quick as thought. Mami flicks her hand again, and the cup vanishes with another lash of golden ribbon.
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That's it!
Houmura's Hair is four-dimensional!
It all makes sense now.
 
I'm wondering whether this can be used to conceal witchy devices, so that we can maintain stealth while being able to quickly deploy complicated witchy devices without trancing.

But I definitely want to know how many dimensions our hammerspace has, its geometry, and if it's connected to other such spaces. This also makes me wonder if we can make non-witchy barriers.
 
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Vebyast said:
That's what I'd have guessed initially.

This, though, makes me wonder if it's at least a little bit hidden? Sayaka's grief-senses aren't great, though.
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I think it's more the fact that we effectively (if not actually) teleported something into reality, with the resulting sound and air movement that implies, right next to her.

Distracting noises are distracting.
 
Okay, I'm going to put up my amendment to the current vote. I think that we do want a better lead-in, and I think that it's useful for people to know that Oriko foresaw herself dying in all sorts of exciting ways.

[x] Discuss O&K.
-[x] Respect their feelings; err on the side of caution. Stay positive.

-[x] Motive: Save Oriko.
--[x] She saw every path ending with her own death.
--[x] She lost her powers partially because Kirika convinced her to reject the visions and want to live.
--[x] You hope she's safe now, but you don't quite feel it. Especially with the house arrest.

-[x] Discuss house arrest.
--[x] Ask what they want.
--[x] Restitution: Financial reimbursement? Continued community service? Oriko enjoyed doing good today.
--[x] Complications: Ongoing psychological harm from confinement; Mikuni mansion; Kirika's family, no defenses or backup.
--[x] Alternatives: Relocation, surveillance, restricted freedom with chaperones/tracking devices? Sayaklones?
---[x] If Sayaklones, can Sayaka handle it? You'd worry about them keeping their cool around each other.
--[x] Justice?: Magical girls don't have laws, police, or courts. Should that change? How? When? You don't like making decrees.

-[x] Tentatively propose involving more adults with the Shizukis' help. Legal experts, therapists, the Mikis...
 
Aranfan said:
That's why we have her put a ribbon around the soul gem while it's in this position. Then we translate via grief both the soul gem and the ribbon. Then Mami can just pull it towards her, and even if we are using k and she's using j, it'll still get pulled towards the right position.
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Hn. I'm still somewhat worried that moving something along the k-axis away from its local origin where it intersects our ability to perceive it in xyz-space will also move it away from where it intersects Mami's ability to perceive or manipulate it in j-space, thus causing her to loose her grip on it or something.

So, I suppose the first test would just be to wave things around in our hammerspace, and see if we Mami can locate and grab onto them, and vice versa; if we're using the same dimensional axis this renders a lot of this moot. (Though it does also decrease a bit of defensive utility against multidimensional enemies.)

If we're not using the same dimensional axis, the next test would I guess be to try your, @Arafan's, idea about Mami being able to keep holding onto something (not our soul gem) she's tagged in the j-axis while we move it in the k-axis, and then have her try tugging it back into xyz-space when we drop it. And if that works, then we could be sure our soul gem or anything else is retrievable from either of our hammerspaces by one another, so long as we've tagged it properly.

And that's all if, having had Mami put our soul gem into her four dimensional hammerspace herself, we determine that being moved along a fourth dimensional axis does cut off our soul gem-body Bluetooth. If it doesn't, and we don't get gemmed when our soul gem is moved along a fourth dimensional axis, then all these questions become less relevant for the protect-our-gem-with-hammerspace idea.

Though, of course, learning whether meguca use the same fourth dimensional axis to store things and whether they can access eachothers' hammerspace along that dimension, or if they use different axes, whether they can access items they've previously tagged even if they've been moved along another axis, is still pretty important.

Possibly, see if anyone's (by which I mean Sayaka's, at the moment) teleport powers interact with any extra dimensions we're capable of sensing.

Also, we only really experimented with moving our grief along a single new dimensional axis, to check that we could. We should check if we can also access other dimensional axes in the same way; we should check if Mami can do the same; pursuant to the above, we should check if any of these axes on our lists overlap (even if we can't access all the same axes to use as hammerspace, having even one shared would be good to know about). Also, we should probably give official names to any dimensional axes we discover we can interact with in this manner, that way we can stop using nonspecific pointers like i, j, k, q that have to be initialized at the start of each conversation like this, because this could get confusing if we're not all using the same dimensional axis to store things.

Also, I think a high priority might be to make sure we know how Homura's shield storage interacts with our and anyone else's fourth dimensional manipulation (preferably during a private science session where we don't need to worry about infohazards), because if someone can figure out how to get access to Homura's shield's hammerspace, I think we may have a problem. Like, maybe all meguca use their own dimensional axes, and it's fine, or maybe Homura is one of a few that have a specialized dimensional axis with particular properties (i.e. persisting through time loops) to work with so no one else is liable to be able to touch it, or maybe Homura's hammerspace just has the security protocol of "must be accessed from this shield accesspoint". (Do we know if someone else can reach into Homura's shield grab something, like, as in if they're standing right next to her as she accesses it? Or if she can grant them access to do so? Or, perhaps if her shield simply has the security feature known as "must be accessed by Akemi Homura".)

Either way, I suspect there's rather a lot of sensitive things in that shield, and while I suspect it's got at least enough security that the Incubators haven't gotten in to go looking around inside (or haven't let on that they've found anything? Homura was keeping the Book Of Witches in her shield before she gave it to us, right? I suspect there are other major info security breaches? It's also possible that most timelines, the Incubators don't actually know they should be looking, and by the time they learn, Homura has looped out; it's possible that it would be trivial for them to access the shield and it's only infosec that ensures they don't. Alternatively, magic is bullshit that even the Incubators don't fully understand, so even if they can do stuff on multi dimensional axes, whatever magical security is on the shield keeps them out. Planning for the former is untenable because it would throw all our current actions out the window anyway, and planning for the latter isn't cautious; probably just be careful about infosec and don't assume anything until it's proven, is the only way to productively proceed from there... Er. That was a tangent.), making absolutely sure some sufficiently advanced experimentation won't just let random meguca peruse its contents is probably a good idea.


*Note: I am not an expert in multidimensional things. Or even an apprentice, heh. These are just sort of points I can see maybe being of relevance?
 
mCooperative said:
Hn. I'm still somewhat worried that moving something along the k-axis away from its local origin where it intersects our ability to perceive it in xyz-space will also move it away from where it intersects Mami's ability to perceive or manipulate it in j-space, thus causing her to loose her grip on it or something.
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It shouldn't. Axes are independent of each other. Moving stuff along the Z axis doesn't change it's position on the X or Y axis, or the i,j,k or q axes. It gets further away, sure, but if there is a physical connection all you need to do is tug it towards you to get it back in line. because moving something towards you brings it closer to you along all axes.
 
I'm not sure Homura's hammerspace is based on any form of extra-dimensional storage, besides the fact that it's bigger on the inside.

Besides the fact that whatever is stuffed in there persists through loops, when Wraith Arc rolled around (post Madokami, pre Rebellion) all the guns n shit were replaced with Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen. Who was destroyed by Madokami. I don't know.

Anyway, if I'm right, Homu-space can only be accessed through Homura's shield, and is otherwise a non-entity to the rest of the universe, multidimensional bullshit or no.
 
mCooperative said:
Also, I think a high priority might be to make sure we know how Homura's shield storage interacts with our and anyone else's fourth dimensional manipulation
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Homura's shield doesn't store things. Like, at all. It has no "storage". It sends them forward in time to the moment Homura decides to "retrieve" them, which isn't the same thing.

Even in wraith arc, the dimensional space within it is explicitly called out as a new thing, added after the previous function as a pure "time manipulation device" was finished.
 
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I wonder if Sayaka can create 'generic' enchanted devices that respond to stimuli by remotely activating the effect of the card she has placed inside that device.

Because then she can tell people that they activated her trap card :V
 
You know, I joked about the extra dimensions being full of feathers, but the idea of putting significant amounts of Grief or Sabrina's Soul Gem in an extradimensional space is uncomfortably close to what a Witch Barrier is. And that way be dragons.
 
mCooperative said:
That power is too great for Sabrina to hold! Of all the powers in this world- it must remain safe from our grasp! To know of the secret of the great Akemi Homura Hairflip, to know how it is done, fine- but to master it ourself!? 'Tis blasphemy! }=o)
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Do you want to drive Homu do drink?

Because this is how you drive Homu to drink.

Blaflaix said:
That's it!
Houmura's Hair is four-dimensional!
It all makes sense now.
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No it isn't.

She must totally be abusing 4D movement to avoid having her guns get stuck in her hair when she hairflips, though. :V
 
Redshirt Army said:
Homura's shield doesn't store things. Like, at all. It has no "storage". It sends them forward in time to the moment Homura decides to "retrieve" them, which isn't the same thing.

Even in wraith arc, the dimensional space within it is explicitly called out as a new thing, added after the previous function as a pure "time manipulation device" was finished.
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Hell, even then, it's implied Homura's kind of an unreliable narrator and her Shield is just letting her access the timeline UKG consumed and Madokami erased.
 
Firnagzen said:
"Yeah, yeah," Sayaka grumbles, sliding off the sofa and standing. She transforms in a brilliant flash of blue, and flicks her cape out with a smooth sidestep. Somewhere in the flowing cloth, another Sayaka emerges, moving in easy tandem with the original.
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I have to wonder when Sayaka practiced with her clones enough to make this look natural. That kind of thing can't be easy.
Firnagzen said:
For your part, you poke at what seems to be a malleability enchantment. You can see how it follows from your Wish - it's control. But you're hoping there's some way to parley control into control over Grief. That's the second part of your Wish, after all.
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...Have we tried enchanting Grief?
 
Roomba said:
You know, I joked about the extra dimensions being full of feathers, but the idea of putting significant amounts of Grief or Sabrina's Soul Gem in an extradimensional space is uncomfortably close to what a Witch Barrier is. And that way be dragons.
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When we were studying Barriers we did get some stuff about how they were twisted in a direction perpendicular to normal space, so there's definitely a connection here.

That said, we were just able to move a chunk of Grief through the fourth dimension without trancing, so I don't think four dimensional utility fog is going to be a problem.
 
Vebyast said:
I have to wonder when Sayaka practiced with her clones enough to make this look natural. That kind of thing can't be easy.
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Maybe it can? She pulled off a near perfect replica of this move-


-against Kyouko.

Firnagzen said:
Blade-shot booms out. The hilt goes flying, and Sayaka spins, cape fluttering. Swords stab into the ground around her in an arc, only for twirling kicks to flick the swords into her hands for a rolling thunder of shots.

Kyouko doesn't flinch. She slides through the hail as if it isn't even there. Effortless dodges and lazy parries smash blades out of the air, missed shots sending shuddering vibrations through the trees, bark and leaves flying.
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Meguca combat instincts are powerful.
 
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