Because this alternate universe only exists as a warning of what we could do if we're not careful.
That feels... cheap, though.

The three anomalies that Kyubey thought of were Homura, Madoka, and Sabrina, right? Are we sure that Homura's on that list and not included in Madoka? Firn thinks deeply enough about these things that there must be some other clue. Especially since, well, "this is a warning" isn't exactly necessary? I mean, yes, we an easily break everything if we fuck up, especially with a power like griefhax or reality manipulation... so why call that out? Why even draw attention to Kyubey at all, much less its thoughts? There has to be something in there.
 
Note: This probably means that soul gems do not require magic to break.

I think that I've identified one of the things that's confused me about this warning. Why didn't Kyubey stop this? We've argued no-limits for Griefhax before and wondered why we don't walk up to the Incubator and make a deal to power the universe in return for being left alone. But that's currently debate. Realitymanip!Brina casually condensed a kilo of antimatter out of thin air. Kyubey must have seen it happening. Kyubey can't have missed what that would mean for conservation of mass-energy. Why didn't Kyubey act to preserve that powerset?

Why would Kyubey care?

Being able to turn matter into antimatter isn't free energy. It's a burst of really cheap energy, and a corresponding reduction in available matter and an increase in unusuable waste energy.

It's convenient, if you want antimatter, but it's not stave-off-entropy-forever power.
 
That feels... cheap, though.

The three anomalies that Kyubey thought of were Homura, Madoka, and Sabrina, right? Are we sure that Homura's on that list and not included in Madoka? Firn thinks deeply enough about these things that there must be some other clue. Especially since, well, "this is a warning" isn't exactly necessary? I mean, yes, we an easily break everything if we fuck up, especially with a power like griefhax or reality manipulation... so why call that out? Why even draw attention to Kyubey at all, much less its thoughts? There has to be something in there.

It could be as simple as "You know honestly if Sabrina can do this shit, blowing her ass up is worth losing Madoka."
 
I mean, yes, we an easily break everything if we fuck up, especially with a power like griefhax or reality manipulation... so why call that out?

I mean, given the conversation preceding my recollection of the warning, letting us know that magic in PMAS does not have a safety to prevent us from antimatter-ing the area was probably a useful component of the warning. And possibly other broader setting physics implications?

Though yes, I think there's something of note we're not catching about Kyubey and the three anomalies stuff, it does feel like there's something there we may not have unpacked entirely.
 
Or anything else. We're in uncharted, and very dangerous, waters.

Alright, here's my proposal to safely test things. We get some grief. And we tell that grief to be a cloud of neutrinos. This will make it feel witchy, as it takes on all the physical properties of neutrinos and STOPS acting like a mathematically perfect object. I'm choosing neutrinos because then if they come back antimatter we won't need a magnetic bottle to hold them in. Neutrinos give no fucks. Neither do antineutrinos. The only way one of them explodes is if a neutrino hits them. They won't react with other particles. And the basic property of neutrinos is that they fly through entire planets and miss every atom in them, so we don't have to worry about any accidental booming. And even if one does, a neutrino anti-neutrino event makes a photon of visible light. It won't be dangerous. Then after we've rotated them, we can look at them with our grief sense and see if they've become anti-neutrinos. Then we know what happens if we rotate matter.

Realistically, if all meguca can move things along 4+D axes, and it's quite so easy to make antimatter this way accidentally, then there'd be a lot of spontaneous nuclear explosions (like ~100 kiloton on average?) in cities around the world. That there seemingly aren't, means that the process should be relatively safe, with the simplest explanation being safety features installed either by Incubators or inherent to the meguca creation process.

I mean, my MfD instincts scream to conduct any and all similar experiments in a specially designed remote facility (I think on the Moon should be remote enough?), but this is a kinder and gentler quest. I'm pretty sure we won't blow everything up by just using meguca powers in natural ways.
 
That there seemingly aren't, means that the process should be relatively safe

Either this, or, as you mentioned, not all meguca can move things along 4+D axes.

Of course, given that Firn did say we would get haxx powers no matter our wish, the ease with which we antimatter-ed the area in Firn's warning doesn't necessarily imply it would be that easy for someone with less haxx powers. And of course, Mami hasn't accidentally'd the area with her teacups yet.
 
The number of magical girls who can displace non-magical matter in an arbitrary manner is probably small.

Mami can do it because she can summon ribbons and wrap them around stuff, then move the ribbons. Sabrina, likewise, can wrap things in grief and then move the grief.

How would Kyouko shift something? Her direct powers involve illusions and spears. She probably can't wrap a hotdog in an illusion, then put the illusion in 4D space easily.
How would a healer move something? How would a mindguka like Umika do it? How would someone who talks to squirrels?

Basically, you need a power that's suitable for moving things in arbitrary ways, AND to think of the idea of doing it, AND that allows you to retrieve the stuff later. Even if you can grow a plant at right angles to reality, if you can't un-grow it again later, you aren't making matter transformations.

Building control girl can probably do dimensional shenanigans usefully, by extending her buildings into 4D space. But it's not going to be universal.

Even girls that have access to the space in a limited fashion may not have anything that can be dangerous; if storing and summoning clothes is a use of 4D space, but the API for it is very thoroughly debugged, it's not going to cause an explosion. Same thing for effects like Homura's bracer, if that's how it works.
 
Blame me for being slo. Not using my noodle. Kinda dense.

But this time, when I read Sabrina trying her native magic, it hit me. This is the big "M" magic. A first-rate enchanting power. Walt Disney level of panache.

We said 'control.' But what we can get with practice, what we are seeing right now, when we have NO END STATE in mind?

Transformation Magic!
[] Try to transform the rock into an ice cube? A metal spoon? A candle? Chocolate?

May I suggest solving the other 'theory of magic puzzle' open ATM? It has plenty of game-relevance, but less BOOM.

What do you all think we need to do such that Sabrina will gain level on her basic enchantment magic?

My guess: "Understand it."

And that's what my post before intended to do.

We just added a data point, so try debating that?
 
I can only assume that there's an intuitive sense that allows you to realign matter with the universe. Otherwise it might be tricky to get the alignment just right when putting stuff back. Also, thinking in 4D is hard for most humans.

Anyway, if we're going to test antimatter, we should probably start with something small outside of reality. Like a soot particle, which should only release a kilojoule of energy.
May I suggest solving the other 'theory of magic puzzle' open ATM? It has plenty of game-relevance, but less BOOM.

What do you all think we need to do such that Sabrina will gain level on her basic enchantment magic?

My guess: "Understand it."

And that's what my post before intended to do.

We just added a data point, so try debating that?
I just thought about it, and I think it would be funny if we did metallurgy by enchanting some raw metal, then kneading it together, like dough. And if we did that like a flaky pastry, then it could have some interesting metamaterial properties. The results would probably have some weird ass crystal structure, and we might want to check that out.
 
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The most brute-force useful application I see is just making selectively-malleable materials. Either only malleable to specific people it's tuned for, or changing from rigid to malleable on command.

Imagine a steel piece of rebar which is as flexible as a rope, but only for Sabrina and her friends; for anyone else, it's a steel bar. Hand them out to people the next time there's a magical girl fight, and you have very effective handcuffs; Sayaka, if she catches a magical girl, can tie her captive to a lamp post, and that captive can't get loose until she finds a way to cut the steel. Even anti-magic wouldn't work, since disenchanting the bar would just leave it rigid for everyone, not flexible for everyone.

Imagine a suit of armor which is as flexible as a cloth shirt when the wearer moves, but completely rigid when someone else applies force to it.

Or a multi-tool which non-Sabrinas could carry and would assume pre-set shapes on command; "this is my pet rock/screwdriver/hacksaw/hammer/crowbar/spatula".
 
People, if we're gonna run antimatter experiments, I'd rather do them far away from... Earth.

That said, we have something more important to do outside Earth, if you all remember.

So I propose we table antimatter experiments until we've had our Moon Date With Mami.

:p

We could put handprints in concrete that was set decades ago!

Or carve our initials. Imagine a giant heart on Tokyo Tower, with the initials M + S in it.

The order of the initials is important; "S + M" might give people the wrong impression.
M+S is the right order anyway.
 
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Selective flexibility might be very trade-worthy. Another one-off type of scheme, where we find motivated buyers and big purses. Or gain loyalty through gifts.

OTOH, mass market significantly out-performs this for total return.. "Sabrina's Body Shop" might be a start? lol!

The real meat of this, is whether my assertion is correct. Is there a better fit for the facts?
 
Meh, if anti-matter is such a concern then all you guys need to do is practice in a vacuum.

Of course, anti-matter isn't necessarily the worst case scenario. That would be a unstable false vacuum event. Although if we started progressing along such lines I imagine Kyuubey would probably warn us pronto.
 
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Meh, if anti-matter is such a concern then all you guys need to do is practice in a vacuum.

Of course, anti-matter isn't necessarily the worst case scenario. That would be a unstable false vacuum event. Although if we started progressing along such lines I imagine Kyuubey would probably warn us pronto.

We could pull that off before 4d shenanigans; hell, we could do that from day one. Just make two perfectly flat planes of Grief, stack them, fold them into a bubble, and POP!

Unstoppable wave of destruction traveling at c.

And that's just the easiest way for us to destroy the observable universe.

Not that we ever would, of course.
 
"Rin, why does Sakura hate me so much? I thought we were finally reaching an understanding!"

"Last time you visited, you somehow shredded her civilian clothes. When she de-transformed, she was suddenly naked. In public. She will never forgive you."
"Okay, 1. I am really very sorry but 2. Why would she detransform in public?"

("I mean, what's the big deal about a little accidental nudity between friends?")
 
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I just thought about it, and I think it would be funny if we did metallurgy by enchanting some raw metal, then kneading it together, like dough. And if we did that like a flaky pastry, then it could have some interesting metamaterial properties. The results would probably have some weird ass crystal structure, and we might want to check that out.
Kneading dough works because of specific properties of flour. Mostly (entirely?) gluten molecules. You wouldn't easily get that in metal just by adding malleability; you'd need a specific distribution of malleable and nonmalleable parts at a molecular level, to get the metal atoms to form structures that can stick together into the equivalent of protein chains. Compare kneading bread to kneading play-doh (or working gold or other soft metals); the former produces a lasting change in consistency, the latter does not.

Flaky-pastry effects, on the other hand, might be achievable. That doesn't actually come from kneading at all (you should try to work pastry dough as little as possible, or it'll get tough). Pastry is made flaky by adding butter (or other solid fats) to it in chunks while keeping everything cold enough that the fat stays separate. Rolling the dough out presses the fat into thin sheets between equally thin sheets of lean dough, so when it's baked, the butter melts, any water content boils away producing a rise, and the result is thin shards of buttered dough with gaps between them where the butter was. Getting coherent layers (croissants) as opposed to general flakiness (biscuits and good pie crust) involves a more careful addition of butter than just dicing it and adding it cold, but the mechanics are the same.

So that could be achievable, in theory, by mixing lumps of metal with different melting points, and then heating it after you've rolled it out. The problem is, with metal there's no equivalent of the water content boiling off and the fat absorbing – no way for the low-melter to get out. Also, you could get the same effect by just making sheets of foil.
 
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Kneading dough works because of specific properties of flour. Mostly (entirely?) gluten molecules. You wouldn't easily get that in metal just by adding malleability; you'd need a specific distribution of malleable and nonmalleable parts at a molecular level, to get the metal atoms to form structures that can stick together into the equivalent of protein chains. Compare kneading bread to kneading play-doh (or working gold or other soft metals); the former produces a lasting change in consistency, the latter does not.

Flaky-pastry effects, on the other hand, might be achievable. That doesn't actually come from kneading at all (you should try to work pastry dough as little as possible, or it'll get tough). Pastry is made flaky by adding butter (or other solid fats) to it in chunks while keeping everything cold enough that the fat stays separate. Rolling the dough out presses the fat into thin sheets between equally thin sheets of lean dough, so when it's baked, the butter melts, any water content boils away producing a rise, and the result is thin shards of buttered dough with gaps between them where the butter was. Getting coherent layers (croissants) as opposed to general flakiness (biscuits and good pie crust) involves a more careful addition of butter than just dicing it and adding it cold, but the mechanics are the same.

So that could be achievable, in theory, by mixing lumps of metal with different melting points, and then heating it after you've rolled it out. The problem is, with metal there's no equivalent of the water content boiling off and the fat absorbing – no way for the low-melter to get out. Also, you could get the same effect by just making sheets of foil.

Working with what we have, yes.

It seems to be "enchant item, and shape without issue using fingers."

I'm trying to get the more general case falsified, or supported:

Sabrina can enchant, and then transform material using 'imagination' and 'force or will', much like, but not equal to, griefhax.
 
We could pull that off before 4d shenanigans; hell, we could do that from day one. Just make two perfectly flat planes of Grief, stack them, fold them into a bubble, and POP!

Unstoppable wave of destruction traveling at c.

And that's just the easiest way for us to destroy the observable universe.

Not that we ever would, of course.

Of course. But there's more then one way to skin a cat and not every way is known. Only substitute "cat" for "all of existence" and "skin" for "annihilate".
 
I think that I've identified one of the things that's confused me about this warning. Why didn't Kyubey stop this? We've argued no-limits for Griefhax before and wondered why we don't walk up to the Incubator and make a deal to power the universe in return for being left alone. But that's currently debate. Realitymanip!Brina casually condensed a kilo of antimatter out of thin air. Kyubey must have seen it happening. Kyubey can't have missed what that would mean for conservation of mass-energy. Why didn't Kyubey act to preserve that powerset?
Bear in mind: Kyuubey is not omniscient. We've seen places where he wasn't looking, both in canon (every Oriko manga) and in PMAS (His commentary on the fire at the Mikis' apartment) and there's also the old note that humanity is obtuse to him. The text itself notes that he didn't realize Sabrina would try antimatter and if he wasn't directly observing then he likely did not have time to act.

The same goes for Oriko: She can't always predict Sabrina, and back during the start that was likely especially true since she thought she could. We got caught by her when we weren't firing on all cylinders but when are where she didn't realize she couldn't see there's a lot less care on her part.
 
How would Kyouko shift something? Her direct powers involve illusions and spears. She probably can't wrap a hotdog in an illusion, then put the illusion in 4D space easily.
How would a healer move something? How would a mindguka like Umika do it? How would someone who talks to squirrels?
Like this?
The girl holds the Grief Seed for a moment, as if weighing it. Finally, she brings her arm behind her back, and when her hand drops to hang loosely at her side, the Grief Seed's vanished.
 
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