Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
[X] Redshirt Army
Good eye, Kai.
Good eye, Kai.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Another track for expounding on metaknowledge:
[ ] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened. Some of it, like Asunaro or... medieval France, isn't from the loops. Others come from different realities. An Earth with no magic and a subtly different history for one.
-[ ]The mechanics seem accurate but the what happened and didn't is harder to say. Even the impossibilities have left their marks. We guessed at the Turkey earthquake because the Arab Springs happened in our memory of the magicless world for instance.
-[ ] Bring up time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge.
-[ ] On the plus side, if something weird or impossible shows up, we may know at least a little about it?
As it turns out, our world is one of the weirder worlds we know of, and is a way to bring up strange realities that operate via different rules without going into Wraith Arc or Rebellion.
In fact it may be worth asking if Madoka wished specifically to send someone back.
[ ]It's Homura's to say but... we've been wondering for a while whether Madoka may have created us specifically to help Homura.
-[ ] Did Madoka know about the time loops last time? And would Homura be willing to tell us her wish?
... Oh hey, and if we're created by one to help the other, it's also a line of thought that can drop the mom-bomb without it needing to logically follow from the potentialbomb.
--[ ]Would this make the two of them our mothers?
[ ] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened. Some of it, like Asunaro or... medieval France, isn't from the loops. Others come from different realities. An Earth with no magic and a subtly different history for one.
-[ ]The mechanics seem accurate but the what happened and didn't is harder to say. Even the impossibilities have left their marks. We guessed at the Turkey earthquake because the Arab Springs happened in our memory of the magicless world for instance.
-[ ] Bring up time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge.
-[ ] On the plus side, if something weird or impossible shows up, we may know at least a little about it?
As it turns out, our world is one of the weirder worlds we know of, and is a way to bring up strange realities that operate via different rules without going into Wraith Arc or Rebellion.
But consider this: If the last loop is the same except for the potential bomb, Madoka may have also made a wish knowing about time travel under less severe circumstances as well. If her specific intention was to sent us back to help Homura, then she probably did.
In fact it may be worth asking if Madoka wished specifically to send someone back.
[ ]It's Homura's to say but... we've been wondering for a while whether Madoka may have created us specifically to help Homura.
-[ ] Did Madoka know about the time loops last time? And would Homura be willing to tell us her wish?
... Oh hey, and if we're created by one to help the other, it's also a line of thought that can drop the mom-bomb without it needing to logically follow from the potentialbomb.
--[ ]Would this make the two of them our mothers?
- Location
- Illinois
The issue at hand here is that less detail is better.
This is... Essentially memetics bullfuckery. The goal has to be "don't think about it" until and unless it can be thought of positively.
We don't want her to think of it as her own personal lichbomb. That's an awful outcome! We want her to commit to a path that we can do the thinking about for her and then just not think about it.
Which... Well.
So, in fact, everything I wrote has a secondary motive... Saying we can try to defuse it implies we think we can defuse it implies she should talk to us if it goes through. Offering some way to sever communications with Kyubey is implying that this isn't something she has to learn. And the "don't talk to Kyubey"... A warning, if that wasn't obvious, and an attempt to get her to come to us if it happens.
In point of fact, the secondary motives are why I'm saying we should do this at all, much as I argued like 1k pages ago that we should "disclaim" the witchbomb to Mami (which didn't happen because we accidentally traumatized her) -- in a vacuum, if the sole benefit of telling her this stuff was that she'd be less likely to talk to Kyubey, we wouldn't be doing this. But this isn't a vacuum, and this whole thing -- it makes her see us as someone with knowledge of the material, it drives her to us in the event that she's hit with this thing. It makes her trust us when we talk about it in the future.
That is what is invaluable about this. It conveys that someone else is there, and she can talk to them.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
- Location
- Texas
You know, we have all the tools we need to permanently defuse the potential-bomb.
Madoka's potential is skyrocketing because Homura keeps resetting time to get her a happy ending, right?
We just need to reset time for reasons that have nothing to do with Madoka.
Meanwhile, we currently have access to Sayaka, a power-copier who doesn't know what's going on, and Homura, with time reset abilities. All we have to do is get Sayaka to copy Homura's power, and then trick her into going back in time for non-Madoka reasons, and BOOM, problem solved.
We should give her cryptic mentor-ish notes, some clear seeds, and maybe hide our soul gem on her person so Sabrina goes back with her. Nothing could go wrong with this plan. And it neatly sidesteps the need to ever tell Homura anything.
Madoka's potential is skyrocketing because Homura keeps resetting time to get her a happy ending, right?
We just need to reset time for reasons that have nothing to do with Madoka.
Meanwhile, we currently have access to Sayaka, a power-copier who doesn't know what's going on, and Homura, with time reset abilities. All we have to do is get Sayaka to copy Homura's power, and then trick her into going back in time for non-Madoka reasons, and BOOM, problem solved.
We should give her cryptic mentor-ish notes, some clear seeds, and maybe hide our soul gem on her person so Sabrina goes back with her. Nothing could go wrong with this plan. And it neatly sidesteps the need to ever tell Homura anything.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
She may have, or she may not have. In the series timeline, Homura told Madoka about the time travel stuff after Kyubey potentialbombed her. It is possible that in a timeline where Homura wasn't potentialbombed, she wouldn't have told Madoka about it.
Sounds too convoluted imo to work the way you suggest.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
first off, the mechanics of Homura's Revenge are collaborated by Madogatari, which not only explains Homura's magic in all detail but outright says that holding someone's hand applies "all the shield's magic" to them, no ifs or buts. In regards to Homura's Revenge, it was described as "a real possibility where Homura came the closest to fulfilling her true wish."
That wording is vague as hell but I take it to mean it's something that COULD have happened even if it didn't, and that her magic facilitates hand-holding passenger time travel because she was always meant to use it with Madoka, and make them true partners.
Like she always wished for, in her heart of hearts, as revealed in her barrier.
Sadness.
...ANYWAY.
I am now wigging the fuck out because almost all of my plans were contingent on omnibombing Homura and Madoka at some point. First off,
A) Do not drop Potentialbomb,
B) DO NOT TELL HER A MEMETIC HAZARD EXISTS AND NOT TO TALK TO KYUBEY OH MY GOD this is stupid it's like asking her not to think of Pink Elephants.
C) Instead, build her up. Don't lead her towards a memetic hazard but insist that "you know everything Kyubey might say otherwise, every trick he might use to hurt you and your friends" but emphasize "Homura, you're amazing. If not for you, if not for all your efforts, Madoka would have never made that wish, and I would have never existed. I know that...sometimes you see how much I DO, and maybe you...maybe you feel redundant or inferior or something because of how much I trivialize things you always struggled with, like the Sayaka issue or grief seeds...but I need you to understand. None of this would have been possible without you, and your amazing friendship, and your endless determination. That's why it's important to me that you don't lose the hope you have left. And you never even think of giving up. It's not wrong to hope even more, and to have faith. Because we WILL win. I swear on my soul."
Something like that. It gets across what we want to do without priming her to think there's a memetic hazard, and if she takes it to heart the potentialbomb won't hurt her as much.
You need to make her think that her looping was a good thing REGARDLESS of whether she knows it or not, and that can only be done before Kyubey says anything.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
[] Do not drop potentialbomb.
[] Talk with Homura.
-[] About how much good she's doing, how you suspect you are here thanks to Homura's loops, and how much you admire her.
-[] Thank her for putting her trust on you. Promise her you'll make this work, together. So don't lose hope.
[] Tell her about how to keep Madoka from wishing.
-[] Beating Walpurgisnach... And telling her about Homura's past.
-[] Madoka respects Homura's effort and pain. She needs to know.
-[] Offer help and support.
[] Talk with Homura.
-[] About how much good she's doing, how you suspect you are here thanks to Homura's loops, and how much you admire her.
-[] Thank her for putting her trust on you. Promise her you'll make this work, together. So don't lose hope.
[] Tell her about how to keep Madoka from wishing.
-[] Beating Walpurgisnach... And telling her about Homura's past.
-[] Madoka respects Homura's effort and pain. She needs to know.
-[] Offer help and support.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
IHGFYURH Yea another thing don't imply there's another bomb because in Rebellion she literally picked apart her perfect fantasy dream world to find the one thing that was wrong she didn't know about Homura's personality can't ignore this shit. DON'T.
- Location
- Somewhere
I feel the need to reply to this, Sorry.
I do not think to have implied that Homuras revenge is canon and I have trouble seeing how that could be read that way, sorry
I meant it in the sense of what parts of it (the characterization, as quoted) is canon to this quest.
And I at least know of homuras revenge by hearsay I personally know it is not canon.
By the way, is one slightly invisible without an avatar? Kinda feels that way.
And just to contribute meaningfully: Friendly reminder it has been just around 2 weeks since sabrina is a thing.
And Homu has been at this for over 10 years of continued failure without any successes (big and/or at all), so aggressively building her self image up may be on the agenda, it would surely help make her be a happier homu.
And a happier homu is a nice homu is a good homu.
fake edit: this takes way too long, if anyone knows the point where oriko points out the importance of Madoka, Homura and Sabrina, please feel free, I sat her way too long looking for this, but I found a nice quote, so it is alright.
Once again, that sounds factually false, seeing how madoka has a 0 percent chance to witch without incubator interference.
I would call this a lie, even; but it could also just be meant metaphorically, which would make his "supposed" honesty even more of a hoot than it usually is.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
[X] Keep talking.
-[X] Joke that you'll take her advice into consideration. Kneecaps are a privilege, not a right.
-[X] Ask Homura why she thinks Sabrina exists. Then explain that, as far as you understand, you're here thanks to her.
-[X] Tell her how much you admire her.
-[X] Lastly, explain you believe Madoka won't make a Wish if Walpurgisnacht is defeated if she knows what Homura has gone through. Madoka respects that.
That did not go well.
-[X] Joke that you'll take her advice into consideration. Kneecaps are a privilege, not a right.
-[X] Ask Homura why she thinks Sabrina exists. Then explain that, as far as you understand, you're here thanks to her.
-[X] Tell her how much you admire her.
-[X] Lastly, explain you believe Madoka won't make a Wish if Walpurgisnacht is defeated if she knows what Homura has gone through. Madoka respects that.
I'm seeing parallels with Lich/KBbombing Mami.
That did not go well.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
And yet she's doing better now. She has real friends instead of Kyuubey, and while there's still work to do, things are overall going well now.
Ehhh. I'd question the use of "better" given that she seems on the verge of falling apart whenever Sabrina's not around.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
[X] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, to your knowledge, couldn't have happened. Some of it, like medieval France, isn't even from the loops. Some are different realities. An Earth with no magic for one.
-[X]What did and didn't happen is one thing but the mechanics seem accurate. Which raises the time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge.
-[X]Even the impossibilities have left their marks. The Turkey earthquake and the Arab Springs happened in the magicless world for instance.
--[X]One plus side: If anyone learns something dangerous, however horrible or impossible, we almost certainly know enough to solve it or talk them through it.
[X]We've been wondering for a while whether Madoka created us specifically to help Homura.
-[X]It's Homura's to say but... Did Madoka know about the loops last time? And would Homura be willing to tell us her wish?
-[X]...Would this make them ...our mothers?
150 exactly.
So, expanding, here's a way to say "Hey Homura I can help talk you through the potentialbomb" without noting that it's anything specific to the potentialbomb, or even to Homura.
Also brings up more info on the last timeline and the mom-bomb.
-[X]What did and didn't happen is one thing but the mechanics seem accurate. Which raises the time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge.
-[X]Even the impossibilities have left their marks. The Turkey earthquake and the Arab Springs happened in the magicless world for instance.
--[X]One plus side: If anyone learns something dangerous, however horrible or impossible, we almost certainly know enough to solve it or talk them through it.
[X]We've been wondering for a while whether Madoka created us specifically to help Homura.
-[X]It's Homura's to say but... Did Madoka know about the loops last time? And would Homura be willing to tell us her wish?
-[X]...Would this make them ...our mothers?
150 exactly.
So, expanding, here's a way to say "Hey Homura I can help talk you through the potentialbomb" without noting that it's anything specific to the potentialbomb, or even to Homura.
Also brings up more info on the last timeline and the mom-bomb.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Can we afford to not drop the potentialbomb, when Kyubey could at a time of his choosing? Telling her that it exists and not telling her what it is isn't really an option, because she'll spend all her time worrying about what this secret is that she doesn't know.
I think that telling Madoka about things to keep her from contracting is the greater priority, but we also don't want Kyubey being able to spring this on Homura to make her despair as we get into our endgame.
We've been discussing the need to do this for something like a year.
Anyway, like all good conmen, Kyubey never accepts responsibility for anything he does. he always finds a way to make it your own fault that he exploited you.
I think that telling Madoka about things to keep her from contracting is the greater priority, but we also don't want Kyubey being able to spring this on Homura to make her despair as we get into our endgame.
We've been discussing the need to do this for something like a year.
I didn't think you did. I was reinforcing your point that it wasn't, not disagreeing with you.I do not think to have implied that Homuras revenge is canon and I have trouble seeing how that could be read that way, sorry
Kyubey is responsible for Madoka becoming a witch, but it's because of Homura that she becomes the most powerful witch in history. Without looping she would just have become an ordinary witch.
Anyway, like all good conmen, Kyubey never accepts responsibility for anything he does. he always finds a way to make it your own fault that he exploited you.
She was upset, but she's recovering. Keeping her ignorant of it could very well have gotten her killed.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
GGH NOOOO FUCKING NO oh my god are the 40 foot tall burning neon letters not ENOUGH? Holy shit take it from me I 100% sympathize I'm the guy who planned to put Madoka and homura in a room and show them PMMM and Rebellion, but that went out the window. That went out the FUCKING window. If we tell Homura this she will WITCH THE FUCK OUT. Maybe we can defuse it in the future but that is NOT today. You'll bad end the FUCKING quest.
Seriously, I'm Mister "I want to tell everyone absolutely everything" but Firn's telegraphing that this is something Homura cannot mentally withstand and unlike Mami we can't FORCE HER DOWN until she calms down because of Time Stop. We can't prevent Homura going into her own frozen world and grief-spiralling into oblivion.
Child therapist here, there's situations where it's unethical to tell them certain things at certain junctures because it will unbuild progress you've made with them, and that children often need to be lead to certain modes of thinking before you can make further progress with them. That is Homura's situation. The Homura of today cannot handle this.
At the very worst, she should be able to handle this after Walpurgis. Maybe there's another way we can do this earlier, but we cannot do this NOW.
So let's lay the groundwork for getting Homura in a better headspace without letting her know there's a hazard, and think of how to keep Kyubey's FUCKING MOUTH SHUT.
[x] Phoenixian
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I think we already know Madoka's wish from the last loop?
Muramasa
Best Girl
What is the point of mindscrewing Homura with something that is a joke?Also brings up more info on the last timeline and the mom-bomb.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
As an idea for why hasn't KB bombed Homura in this past week, including at times where we weren't around (which means that KB won't necessarily bomb Homu when we leave the city again):
Kyuubey's actual goal in Mitakihara is to get Madoka to Wish.
Kyuubey doesn't casually drop bombs anywhere, anytime. Rather, he drops them at moments when the chance for the meguca to Witch out is as high as possible.
Kyuubey's got one shot at eliminating Homura, and frankly, KB's canon plan was just to eliminate all meguca so as to force Madoka to make a Wish.
If we want Homura to not get LoopBombed, we simply have to prevent such a situation from happening. Make it so KB never finds that super opportune moment in which he can drop the bomb and have Homura despair 100%.
We don't have to tell Homura about it, and Homura is better off not knowing. Learning about the infohazard will only hurt her.
Not the point.
We could have done better.
We rushed things because we wanted to not feel guilty ourselves.
That wasn't about Mami's well being, it was about us.
Kyuubey's actual goal in Mitakihara is to get Madoka to Wish.
Kyuubey doesn't casually drop bombs anywhere, anytime. Rather, he drops them at moments when the chance for the meguca to Witch out is as high as possible.
Kyuubey's got one shot at eliminating Homura, and frankly, KB's canon plan was just to eliminate all meguca so as to force Madoka to make a Wish.
If we want Homura to not get LoopBombed, we simply have to prevent such a situation from happening. Make it so KB never finds that super opportune moment in which he can drop the bomb and have Homura despair 100%.
We don't have to tell Homura about it, and Homura is better off not knowing. Learning about the infohazard will only hurt her.
Not the point.
We could have done better.
We rushed things because we wanted to not feel guilty ourselves.
That wasn't about Mami's well being, it was about us.