Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Correct. All we can do is tell Homura to not listen, so she terminates the connection whenever QB tries to form it, or preemptively tell her ourselves with damage control (but Firn has "gently" nudged us away from the second option.)
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
[x] The nature of your "knowledge" is difficult to communicate, but... there's some information you have, that couldn't have come from any of the loops Homura experienced.
-[x] For example: Homura's time travel. As far as you're aware, it operates on the same rules for sharing as her timestop - anyone touching her is brought along.
-[x] One such piece of knowledge, that you don't believe originates in a past experience of her's, is that there is a certain piece of information that the Incubator can tell Homura Akemi, even one with many loops of experience, that will make her despair.
--[x] Please don't talk to the bunnycat, Homura.
-[x] For example: Homura's time travel. As far as you're aware, it operates on the same rules for sharing as her timestop - anyone touching her is brought along.
-[x] One such piece of knowledge, that you don't believe originates in a past experience of her's, is that there is a certain piece of information that the Incubator can tell Homura Akemi, even one with many loops of experience, that will make her despair.
--[x] Please don't talk to the bunnycat, Homura.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
As far as I got in planning before I went to sleep, I was pretty sure the PotentialBomb wouldn't be even addressed this vote, due to the fact there were... jokevotes and vote to literally drop it without preamble.
I was hoping we could do something like this vote for this update:
[X] Keep talking.
-[X] You know how to keep Madoka from Wishing: First part is beating Walpurgisnacht, but what really keeps her from Wishing is learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[X] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, the loops, she respects that. That's what keeps her from Wishing.
-[X] So you believe Madoka needs to know.
-[X] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
Then, if Homura is OK after that, address the Potential Bomb.
[] One more thing:
-[] Make an analogy: Homura knows how the Lich/Witchbombs affect some meguca more than others, and how Kyuubey uses those bombs to make girls despair.
-[] Kyuubey's got one such bomb for Homura.
-[] Promise Homura the same you promised Mami. We'll tell her the truth, if she wants. And it's not as bad as it might seem.
Let's say we cut the last part, and instead:
-[] If Homura were to learn about this, she would despair.
-[] Ask her to not ask, and please to not talk with Kyuubey.
However, at this point this is just putting a weight on Homura's shoulders and telling her to not ask, to not learn what this information is, when she's some kind of information control freak.
I could go for cutting all the PotentialBomb talk entirely. Rather, the important thing to do is making progress on the Madoka front.
I was hoping we could do something like this vote for this update:
[X] Keep talking.
-[X] You know how to keep Madoka from Wishing: First part is beating Walpurgisnacht, but what really keeps her from Wishing is learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[X] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, the loops, she respects that. That's what keeps her from Wishing.
-[X] So you believe Madoka needs to know.
-[X] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
Then, if Homura is OK after that, address the Potential Bomb.
[] One more thing:
-[] Make an analogy: Homura knows how the Lich/Witchbombs affect some meguca more than others, and how Kyuubey uses those bombs to make girls despair.
-[] Kyuubey's got one such bomb for Homura.
Let's say we cut the last part, and instead:
-[] If Homura were to learn about this, she would despair.
-[] Ask her to not ask, and please to not talk with Kyuubey.
However, at this point this is just putting a weight on Homura's shoulders and telling her to not ask, to not learn what this information is, when she's some kind of information control freak.
I could go for cutting all the PotentialBomb talk entirely. Rather, the important thing to do is making progress on the Madoka front.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[x] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened.
-[x] Try and work through fears about inaccuracy, together.
-[x] Bring up some points about time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge as a benign example.
[x] One such point of knowledge is how to keep Madoka from Wishing: First part is beating Walpurgisnacht, but what really keeps her from Wishing is learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[x] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, and the loops, she respects that. So long as Homura is alive, and the threat has passed, that's what keeps her from Wishing.
--[x] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
[x] A final warning: There's something that QB can say, that causes an experienced Homura Akemi to break down.
--[x] Implore Homura to be careful, if she must speak to the Incubator.
Total: 148 words.
I like Onmur's approach, hence my edit, but we need to make some progress on addressing Oriko's prophecy, especially if we're about to spend ages jetting around Japan.
-[x] Try and work through fears about inaccuracy, together.
-[x] Bring up some points about time travel mechanics from Homura's Revenge as a benign example.
[x] One such point of knowledge is how to keep Madoka from Wishing: First part is beating Walpurgisnacht, but what really keeps her from Wishing is learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[x] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, and the loops, she respects that. So long as Homura is alive, and the threat has passed, that's what keeps her from Wishing.
--[x] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
[x] A final warning: There's something that QB can say, that causes an experienced Homura Akemi to break down.
--[x] Implore Homura to be careful, if she must speak to the Incubator.
Total: 148 words.
I like Onmur's approach, hence my edit, but we need to make some progress on addressing Oriko's prophecy, especially if we're about to spend ages jetting around Japan.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I have to say this:
Homura is a broken girl, who needs all the mental fortitude she can get to keep going.
Telling her that this horrid information exists would put a huge weight on her shoulders.
If we then do not offer the information, but tell her to not ask, and not ask the Incubator about it?
That's reverse psychology. It's bait to go talk with the Incubator.
If we cut the part where we offer the information, the whole vote block becomes only harmful to Homura.
The only 'good' thing that'd come out of it would be that Sabrina doesn't have to feel bad about keeping this a secret from Homura... just like she didn't have to feel bad about lying to Mami when she dropped the Lichbomb/KBomb combo on her. Oops.
We obviously need to do something, but this is not the way, not something that will help.
Try to see this point of view:
Right now, Homura is stronger in her total ignorance about the PotentialBomb, than she would be if she learns anything about it.
Telling Homura about the PotentialBomb is also not the only course of action available if we want to protect her from it. Besides trying to get her into a healthier mindset (Madokaaaaaaaaa!), we can literally ask with Kyuubey and ask it to not tell Homura about it.
Yes, I know, there's problems with that, but just pointing out, if we don't have something good to do, let's not do anything we can just to feel like we're doing something.
Telling Homura about the PotentialBomb is harmful. Just stay put, don't do it. There's other things we need to talk about.
Homura is a broken girl, who needs all the mental fortitude she can get to keep going.
Telling her that this horrid information exists would put a huge weight on her shoulders.
If we then do not offer the information, but tell her to not ask, and not ask the Incubator about it?
That's reverse psychology. It's bait to go talk with the Incubator.
If we cut the part where we offer the information, the whole vote block becomes only harmful to Homura.
The only 'good' thing that'd come out of it would be that Sabrina doesn't have to feel bad about keeping this a secret from Homura... just like she didn't have to feel bad about lying to Mami when she dropped the Lichbomb/KBomb combo on her. Oops.
We obviously need to do something, but this is not the way, not something that will help.
Try to see this point of view:
Right now, Homura is stronger in her total ignorance about the PotentialBomb, than she would be if she learns anything about it.
Telling Homura about the PotentialBomb is also not the only course of action available if we want to protect her from it. Besides trying to get her into a healthier mindset (Madokaaaaaaaaa!), we can literally ask with Kyuubey and ask it to not tell Homura about it.
Yes, I know, there's problems with that, but just pointing out, if we don't have something good to do, let's not do anything we can just to feel like we're doing something.
Telling Homura about the PotentialBomb is harmful. Just stay put, don't do it. There's other things we need to talk about.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
The problem is that the offered argument in the vote is blatantly false: The Madoka we know best did learn about the loops, and as a result she erased herself from all possible realities. Even if because of desperation, even if because of Walpurgisnacht, both of those are things we have to deal with and that means that telling Madoka does not necessarily make her not wish, and it can make a wish she does make into a drastically worse outcome for Homura.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Only after all was lost. Right now, we have to worry about a Madowish prompted by any sufficiently strong stress or worry. With the loops known, the Madowish is pushed all the way back to "Bad end, retry Y/N". Recall that, in canon, Madoka didn't make that wish until Homura had been potentialbombed and was despairing. That loop was going to be the last loop one way or another.
This might work. The argument would be something along the lines of "The universe bad-ends if Homura despairs". Arguments like that would actually be pretty useful for getting QB on our side in general, TBH; if we can demonstrate the existence of Feathers and make good arguments as to its reality-destroying nature, I wouldn't be surprised if QB throws in against it.
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I understand that refrence
- Location
- Illinois
I have to get into this conversation, and it's not Mami. Sad catgirl.
So, fair point of warning, I'm going to use some contentious terms at points in this, and so I'm just going to ask that you first read in detail the entire thing before you start replying.
Anyway.
The issue at hand here is that we must never let Homura know she is "making things worse" with each loop.
We must also not allow Kyubey to
There are only so many ways we could possibly fulfill the second requirement. As Aranfan notes, Kyubey appears not to need permission to telepathy somebody, as per ep. 1 of PMMM where he telepathies Madoka. Trying to cut communications with Kyubey is a possibility, then, but one which would require magic.
Ugolino has famously contested that the quest should be entirely winnable with only social actions if these are carried out properly. Frankly, that is an argument that makes some, and I want to stress, some, amount of sense: Firnagzen has had an overall quest premise since before we wished in the opening pages, and has shown us possible non-cleansing wishes, even combat-oriented (the "durability" wish snip) wishes. Two things carry over between powersets: "social", and regular magic.
I want to interject at this point -- I'm not making one of those goddamn archaic anti-science posts here. Science is useful for social is useful for science, these are intertwined, just don't even.
At any rate, the point I want to raise is this: Oriko's warning came on page 210, long before we got even remotely into the depths of our powerset or started looking into enchantment. Furthermore, Homura's vulnerability to the truth of her making things worse through the loops has been an existant factoid since 2011 when PMMM aired. What I mean to suggest here is that this problem is an integral one to the quest; a problem Firn had conceived well before we made our wish -- and therefore also a problem there were already conceived solutions to, ignoring our powerset.
So, I think those number two at most: a communication-severing enchantment, or a social solution, and either way Kyubey must be prevented from convincing Homura that the loops have been making things worse.
The mechanism of the enchantment is obvious in how it achieves its goal.
A social action, however, must by some means prevent Kyubey from convincing Homura of something that is, apparently, objectively true, despite Kyubey's known inability to lie by commission. This appears impossible at first glance.
However, I do not feel that it is in fact objectively true that Homura has been, quote, "making things worse", and one must note that this is separate from "Homura's loops have been increasing Madoka's potential", and that it is the former that Oriko warned of. In PMAS, existing theory dictates that Homura raised Madoka's potential to a point where Madoka was able to interfere with the next loop, which created us, and objectively speaking, this loop is undeniably going "better" from Homura's POV than, hell, probably any other loop ever, as a result of our existence.
...
Given that Kyubey cannot lie by commission, and cannot be "naturally" prevented from communicating with Homura, the only way to prevent Kyubey from convincing Homura of something which is objectively true, without preventing communication, is for that thing to be objectively false. Interestingly, the only person who would have any hope whatsoever of making this argument (that, in fact, this loop is better, and Homura's actions lead to it) and convincing Homura of it is the same person who is immune to Oriko's precog -- Sabrina.
In terms of actually dealing with this, then, this is how I would handle this conversation.
[] Hesitate.
[] Tell Homura that Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which is not harmful to anyone except to her and then only if she is exposed to it.
-[] You have three possible ideas. You can just tell her not to listen to Kyubey, which is probably obvious. You can look in to how to prevent Kyubey from communicating with someone. You can try to "defuse" the infohazard.
One thing I have noticed people lacking in their votes -- without extra input Homura will compare an infohazard to witch/lichbombs. This is not a good thing because both of those concern meguca as a whole and threaten her friends (including Madoka), not just her, and crucially the witchbomb and lichbomb are actually threats whether or not you are aware of them. If you don't know the lichbomb that won't save you from a grief spiral. If you don't know the witchbomb that won't save you from a Tetris or just a girl witching next to you and subsequently killing you.
If Homura doesn't know the potentialbomb, then there are no such consequences, and I think that needs to be communicated to prevent her from thinking "this is something I have to know."
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
[x] Hesitate.
[x] Tell Homura that Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which is not harmful to anyone except to her and then only if she is exposed to it.
-[x] You have three possible ideas. You can just tell her not to listen to Kyubey, which is probably obvious. You can look in to how to prevent Kyubey from communicating with someone. You can try to "defuse" the infohazard.
[x] Tell Homura that Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which is not harmful to anyone except to her and then only if she is exposed to it.
-[x] You have three possible ideas. You can just tell her not to listen to Kyubey, which is probably obvious. You can look in to how to prevent Kyubey from communicating with someone. You can try to "defuse" the infohazard.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Edited, V2. Taking some of @Kaizuki 's ideas.
[x] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened. Bring up benign examples.
-[x] Try and work through fears about inaccuracy.
[x] One such point: How to keep Madoka from Wishing: Learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[x] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, and the loops, she respects that. So long as Homura is alive, and the threat has passed, that's what keeps her from Wishing.
--[x] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
[x] A final warning: Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which is only harmful to her and then only if she is exposed to it.
-[x] You have three possible ideas. You can implore her not to listen to Kyubey. You can try to prevent Kyubey from communicating with her. Or you can try to "defuse" the infohazard.
Total: 148 words. Again.
[x] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened. Bring up benign examples.
-[x] Try and work through fears about inaccuracy.
[x] One such point: How to keep Madoka from Wishing: Learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[x] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, and the loops, she respects that. So long as Homura is alive, and the threat has passed, that's what keeps her from Wishing.
--[x] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
[x] A final warning: Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which is only harmful to her and then only if she is exposed to it.
-[x] You have three possible ideas. You can implore her not to listen to Kyubey. You can try to prevent Kyubey from communicating with her. Or you can try to "defuse" the infohazard.
Total: 148 words. Again.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Add something like "And draws the wrong conclusion"? That's basically what the "defuse" option goes after.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Homura's Revenge is not only not canon, but as I mentioned a while back, it's literally impossible for it to be canon. The first chapter is an alternate ending to Episode 11. One that's so tongue in cheek that it's practically omake. One might as well argue the canonicity of the sitcom manga about Mami as a 30-year-old Office Lady. (Yes, that exists.)
[ ] Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which could be harmful to her if he tricks her into drawing the conclusions that he wants her to draw. She knows how Kyubey lies by omission.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
V 3.0
[x] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened. Bring up benign examples.
-[x] Try and work through fears about inaccuracy.
[x] One such point: How to keep Madoka from Wishing: Learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[x] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, and the loops, she respects that. So long as Homura is alive, and the threat has passed, that's what keeps her from Wishing.
--[x] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
[x] A final warning: Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which could be harmful to her if he tricks her into drawing the conclusions that he wants her to draw. She knows how Kyubey lies by omission.
-[x] You some ideas. You can implore her not to listen to Kyubey. You can try to prevent Kyubey from communicating with her. Or you can try to "defuse" the infohazard.
Total: 158 words. A bit over margins, but not excessive.
[x] Talk to Homura about the strange nature of information you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened. Bring up benign examples.
-[x] Try and work through fears about inaccuracy.
[x] One such point: How to keep Madoka from Wishing: Learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[x] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, and the loops, she respects that. So long as Homura is alive, and the threat has passed, that's what keeps her from Wishing.
--[x] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
[x] A final warning: Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which could be harmful to her if he tricks her into drawing the conclusions that he wants her to draw. She knows how Kyubey lies by omission.
-[x] You some ideas. You can implore her not to listen to Kyubey. You can try to prevent Kyubey from communicating with her. Or you can try to "defuse" the infohazard.
Total: 158 words. A bit over margins, but not excessive.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
The PSP game is also canon, including several different endings that necessarily terminate Homura's loops. In this context "canon" refers to "this is something that the creator said could actually happen", not "actually happened on the plotline that the anime is part of". It is still valid for drawing conclusions about personalities and setting details.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
[x] Redshirt Army
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Yes, but people brought up Homura's Revenge to suggest that Homura could take people back in time with her if she was touching them. I don't think the manga ever intended that idea to be taken seriously.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Homura's Revenge metaphysics may not be accurate in PMAS.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
V4: Because going over the wordcount limit bugged me.TM
[x] Talk about the strange nature of "information" you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened. Bring up benign examples.
-[x] Try and work through fears about inaccuracy.
[x] One such point: How to keep Madoka from Wishing. Learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[x] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, and the loops, she respects that. So long as Homura is alive, and the threat has passed, that's what keeps her from Wishing.
--[x] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
[x] A final warning: Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which could be harmful to her if he tricks her into drawing the wrong conclusions. She knows how Kyubey lies by omission.
-[x] You have some ideas. You can implore her not to listen to Kyubey. You can try to stop Kyubey from communicating. Or you can try to "defuse" this infohazard.
150 words exactly.
[x] Talk about the strange nature of "information" you have, including timelines that, as far as you can tell, couldn't have happened. Bring up benign examples.
-[x] Try and work through fears about inaccuracy.
[x] One such point: How to keep Madoka from Wishing. Learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[x] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, and the loops, she respects that. So long as Homura is alive, and the threat has passed, that's what keeps her from Wishing.
--[x] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
[x] A final warning: Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which could be harmful to her if he tricks her into drawing the wrong conclusions. She knows how Kyubey lies by omission.
-[x] You have some ideas. You can implore her not to listen to Kyubey. You can try to stop Kyubey from communicating. Or you can try to "defuse" this infohazard.
150 words exactly.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I'm a little bit iffy about this. I feel like it doesn't quite emphasize the part where even defusing it is a difficult endeavor. It also doesn't warn Homura off trying to investigate it herself; the "This is a lie Kyubey could tell" phrasing I'm really not a fan of. I'd be happier with "This is an incorrect conclusion you could draw".
[] A final warning: Kyubey has an infohazard on her, a piece of true information that would lead her to incorrect but still extremely damaging conclusions. Incorrect in both your and likely Madoka's opinions, but you're not sure how to convince Homura of that, especially if Kyubey gets to it first.
-[] She should think of it as her own personal lichbomb - An unenlightened grief-spiraling Sayaka is wrong to believe that her body makes her unworthy, but good luck convincing her of that.
Eurgh, wordcount.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Those are definitely better thoughts to convey. I'll play with the formatting to try and get that across.