And that is a sufficiently difficult topic that it should get a vote to itself.
Yeah, probably want two updates for this. One to try to convince Homura to tell Madoka everything, then if Homu is fine, another to let her know the Potentialbomb exists.

I think we can do that second part by analogy, since Homu knows how other bombs affect meguca differently. And ain't it gonna be sad having that conversation in front of Mami.
 
Is there anything to be achieved by pulling Mami into that discussion? Let her know that everyone has these issues and that everyone needs help with them? Or would that cause too many problems for Homura?
I don't think we can pull Mami into this. We are gonna be talking about Witchbombs, and I don't think there's a need for Mami to provide a live example of trauma.

Homu's seen her break enough times.
 
[Plan name] Drop the Potential Bomb
-[x]Ask Homura if she wants to hear information that we believe she might take badly.
-[x] If yes, inform her that Madoka's potential has been increasing due to Homura's efforts to save her.
--[x] note that this information doesn't cause any real changes in the grand of things as long as Madoka doesn't make a wish, after all the Incubators efforts to make her a magical girl doesn't change because Madoka was able to be one before the loops started, and that Wally was going to come here no matter what Madoka's potential was anyway.
 
-[x]Ask Homura if she wants to hear information that we believe she might take badly.
Unacceptable; doesn't give Homura a proper understanding of how bad it is.
-[] You know how to keep Madoka from Wishing: First part is beating Walpurgisnacht, but what really keeps her from Wishing is learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, the loops, she respects that.
-[] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
This looks pretty reasonable.
 
Let her know the information is as bad to her and the truth about Witches is to Mami... if she takes it badly.

Reassure her we don't believe it's really something bad, but Kyuubey knows, and will use it against her in the worst possible way, as Kyuubey does.
Hyping the information up will cause her to take it worse then simply giving it to her and then reassuring her with logic.
 
Gotta fight the one liners.

[X] Keep talking.
-[X] You know how to keep Madoka from Wishing: First part is beating Walpurgisnacht, but what really keeps her from Wishing is learning what Wishing means... for Homura.
-[X] When Madoka learns about Homura's struggles, pain, the loops, she respects that. That's what keeps her from Wishing.
-[X] Offer Homura whatever support you can.
 
What are you smoking? The entire fucking point of this is so that it doesn't hit head on!
...:rolleyes:
Whats the point of making sure a bomb doesn't hit someone dead on? when you want them to live?
The point of the bombs is information that then effects someone in a bad manner by making them aware of it,
It's the difference between crashing a small fighter ship against the Death Star Vs getting hit directly in the core by a lucky shot, in this instance WE DONT WANT IT TO DO THE LATTER AT ALL.
 
The point of the analogy is:

The information we've got can be looked from a point of view akin to Mami's reaction to the Witchbomb, or as, say, Homura or Kyouko would react to the same.

In this case, Homura is in Mami's position, in that this information could break her. But it's OK to take the other perspective.

The information is dangerous to her, but that's because of her perspective; it's something that can be dealt with, and which might not matter at all in the end.

Then we offer Homura this information. Only once she knows the danger it represents, and knows she has our support and belief it can be dealth with.
 
If homura does not already knows this then we have already failed Onmur.
Clearly you have never talked to someone that's having a bad day. You've also never thought about about framing in any of its forms, the overton window or the foot-in-the-door approach or any of the other legion rhetorical techniques that take advantage of the fact that human minds are path-dependent.

Homura may forget that we care about her if we attack her too strongly. Homura may be unable to stay in a frame of mind where us caring about her matters.

How about this. Why do you think that we should be doing this instead of Kyubey?
 
So. Potentialbomb time?

If we're going to do that, we better start planning now: it's a really big deal.

PotentialBomb?

Is there a list of these things anywhere? It seems like every time I come here there's a new one.

And when are we going to tell our friends that we've been classifying information that would be tremendously upsetting to them as "bombs"? The Bob-omb, if you'd like.
 
PotentialBomb?

Is there a list of these things anywhere? It seems like every time I come here there's a new one.

And when are we going to tell our friends that we've been classifying information that would be tremendously upsetting to them as "bombs"? The Bob-omb, if you'd like.
PotentialBomb means telling Homura that she's the one causing Madoka's Potential to increase each loop; KB uses this to make Homura despair and get her to give up in looping so she doesn't keep making everything worse.

It's not an exactly logical train of thought, but that's the bombs.
 
Homura may forget that we care about her if we attack her too strongly.
Attack her?
[Plan name] Drop the Potential Bomb
-[x]Ask Homura if she wants to hear information that we believe she might take badly.
-[x] If yes, inform her that Madoka's potential has been increasing due to Homura's efforts to save her.
--[x] note that this information doesn't cause any real changes in the grand of things as long as Madoka doesn't make a wish, after all the Incubators efforts to make her a magical girl doesn't change because Madoka was able to be one before the loops started, and that Wally was going to come here no matter what Madoka's potential was anyway.
Which part of this it attacking her?
How about this. Why do you think that we should be doing this instead of Kyubey?
...

Because kyubey will frame it in the worse possible way.
funnily enough I care about not framing it at all and then reassuring Homura that SHE DID NOTHING WRONG. Your guys votes are making it look like Homura did do something wrong that she is being forgiven for. Which is not going to end well.
 
I could talk about how I think dropping the Potentialbomb on Homura is simply too dangerous, but I'm just gonna say that common sense is that you just don't drop such heavy topics on people like that.

Technically, we've already helped her calm down, sit down, and chatted a bit, but I think we still need to warn her.

At the very least Homu should know what we're about to drop on her will sound horrible to her, but that we don't believe it is.
 
Which part of this it attacking her?
The part where the first half is about two words away from how Kyubey delivered it in canon. Reassurances mean nothing when they're delivered after you've already destroyed someone. Seriously. Minds are not path-dependent. Argument A followed by Argument B is very much not the same as Argument B followed by Argument A. There are entire fields of science dedicated to studying these effects and minimizing them when attempting to gather scientific data from people.
not framing it at all
There's no such thing. Outside of hard mathematics there is no such thing as a discrete, identifiable "thought" that is exactly the same as a concept. Your brain doesn't have stuff in it like that, language doesn't have things in it like that. At best you can prod someone's electrified gristle into behaving in a particular way, and even that suffers from major epistemic failures. Ever heard of the byzantine generals problem? Every attempt at communication is necessarily inaccurate unless you are communicating pure mathematics, and even that's iffy sometimes.

Your framing is that Homura gets to figure out all the bad shit with nothing to protect her. She hasn't rehearsed her evidence. She hasn't cached any useful patterns of thought. She doesn't have any arguments ready to counter the bad shit. If we leave the actual topic for last, we can make it so that all of our arguments are already available for her to use to defend herself. If we hit her first and then try to make arguments, we'll have to try to make her listen to us while she's in a bad, bad state of mind, and it just won't work. People are not path-independent. Door-in-the-face, cognitive dissonance.
Your guys votes are making it look like Homura did do something wrong that she is being forgiven for.
No matter what we tell her, she's going to be believe that she did something wrong. We need to argue with Homura as she is standing in front of us, and Homura as she is standing in front of us is going to need to be convinced that she didn't do anything wrong. Since we know this, we can make our arguments before she actually has the bad thought, which will be much more effective as outlined above.

I will note that, unless we specifically lead Homura through the actual realizations that Kyubey will try to use against her, she'll remain vulnerable. It's not just that we have to tell her that Madoka's Potential is increasing; we have to make sure she's had and defeated the idea that it's all her fault. Otherwise Kyubey can just go "BY THE WAY IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" and we've essentially done nothing to prepare her for it.

Also? Our votes are not giving her the potentialbomb right now. Doing so is irresponsible and extremely suboptimal. I strongly believe that our best course of action is to do this once Madoka has been read in on the loops and is there to provide support for Homura. Hearing from Sabrina that she did nothing wrong is one thing. Hearing from Madoka, who is theoretically the wronged party in this situation, that she did nothing wrong? That's something completely different.
 
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