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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Torgamous said:
She was calling Homura a vampire up until we dropped the lichbomb on her
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Well, in the interest of just plain having fun with conspiracy theories... isn't a vampire just another sort of walking corpse? :V
Sayaka was getting her digs in while she could man! *shot*

TheEyes said:
At the same time, the thematic changes are well-spotted, and it makes sense that Madokami is having an influence on the world beyond that of only inserting Sabrina. I'm just not convinced that full-on Mikkeil is one of them; maybe Madokami just blessed Sayaka with a higher Potential so she'll have better survivability in the new world, and it's reflected in some "divine" imagery mixing in with her meguca theme?
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I'd say as far as Sayaka remembering goes, there are three possibilities, or at least three possibilities to take into account for planning and revelation purposes:

1: Sayaka remembers everything.
2: Sayaka remembers nothing.
3: Sayaka remembers some things, in the same way that Madoka woke up in canon remembering some things from the previous timeline (actual degree of memory uncertain)
 
The Phoenixian said:
I'd say as far as Sayaka remembering goes, there are three possibilities, or at least three possibilities to take into account for planning and revelation purposes:

1: Sayaka remembers everything.
2: Sayaka remembers nothing.
3: Sayaka remembers some things, in the same way that Madoka woke up in canon remembering some things from the previous timeline (actual degree of memory uncertain)
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In retrospect, Madoka's dreams, and the way they transfer bits of past timelines to her, could be a side-effect of her suddenly becoming the focus of the karmic destiny from multiple universes, and I suppose in that sense a transferred Madokami blessing to Sayaka could have done something similar. So I guess 3 seems most likely to me, with 2 also fairly likely. 1 looks vanishingly unlikely to me: if Sayaka truly were Mikkeil Reborn she wouldn't have lost her temper and assaulted Sabrina the other night, or broken Mami's table, or been as mulish about Oriko and Kirika in general.
 
TheEyes said:
Speaking as someone who can't really find the time to participate in the Discord, this isn't really the same thing at all. What got a lot of us upset before was how Discord users would spend hours crafting a vote, then all at once would bomb the thread with a fait accompli: one person pasting a vote and a dozen people bandwagoning on, with no explanation as to why or how any of them came up with it. It was getting to the point that you couldn't participate in the Quest without spending hours in the Discord; that's clearly not the case here. I do have some concern that the discussion might eventually swing back in that direction again, but we're extremely far from that eventuality at this point.
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Okay. I don't do the discord at all, so I will take your word for it.
 
When I was building the quote tool, one of the specific use cases was to make discord discussion more accessible to people that can't make discord accounts to read logs. I am slightly pissed off that my work has been greeted by hostility and suspicion. This kind of shit is precisely how the thread got into us-versus-them thinking and how the discord happened in the first place, and I am incredibly disappointed to see it coming back up again in response to an honest, constructive effort to improve the situation.
 
Vebyast said:
When I was building the quote tool, one of the specific use cases was to make discord discussion more accessible to people that can't make discord accounts to read logs. I am slightly pissed off that my work has been greeted by hostility and suspicion. This kind of shit is precisely how the thread got into us-versus-them thinking and how the discord happened in the first place, and I am incredibly disappointed to see it coming back up again in response to an honest, constructive effort to improve the situation.
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And I, for one, really appreciate your efforts. I can't emphasize enough how important it is for those of us who are able to get to this site only intermittently, and the Discord rarely if at all, to have access to good logs: it changes the problem considerably, from "You only have access to a tiny minority of the actual discussion at all" to "Occasionally a bunch of new messages will appear and the conversation has jumped ahead without you," which frankly is exactly the situation many of us already have when we're gone for more than a few hours and is just how the world works. :)

Keep up the good work, kind sir.
 
Aranfan said:
Are we doing the discord shadow cabal bullshit yet again?

*sigh*
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We are not. As has been mentioned, discussion happens. People like my quest, and I'm very glad for that, and it means that they're happy to chat about it elsewhere.

Cool it with the us versus them mentality.
TheEyes said:
Speaking as someone who can't really find the time to participate in the Discord, this isn't really the same thing at all. What got a lot of us upset before was how Discord users would spend hours crafting a vote, then all at once would bomb the thread with a fait accompli: one person pasting a vote and a dozen people bandwagoning on, with no explanation as to why or how any of them came up with it. It was getting to the point that you couldn't participate in the Quest without spending hours in the Discord; that's clearly not the case here. I do have some concern that the discussion might eventually swing back in that direction again, but we're extremely far from that eventuality at this point.
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... This, yes. Thank you. I try to clamp down on vote discussion on discord. Some happens, yes, because I can't be on 24/7, and I'm finding myself with increasingly less time. But vote discussion stays in the thread.

On a lighter note, the tally, using the vote management feature which I will shamelessly plug. :V
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Jun 21, 2017 at 7:26 PM, finished with 119291 posts and 24 votes.
  • [X] Keep gently supporting Mami and reassuring her.
    - [X] You're concerned. Ask Mami for her guidance on how to approach things, and follow it.
    [X]Sympathize with magical girl career pressures. Perhaps there's a solution: Segue into clear seed discussion
    - [X] We have prototypes but need testers.
    - [X] All it takes is any grief seed. Does she have a spare or should we provide one?
    - [X] Give the standard disclaimers.
    [X] Try to touch on Asunaro meguca politics a bit. Especially old friends.
    [X] Tell your friends that Kazuza is willing to visit Mitakihara.
    -[X] Address any questions or concerns, offer to introduce Homura and Sayaka.
    -[X] Raincheck a conversation with Sayaka later.
    [X] Offer to ferry over Michiru tomorrow. If it wouldn't be too much imposition? Be insistent.
    -[X] Schedule the pickup at a convenient time.
    [X] Keep the conversation going, but try to end it on a high note.
    [X] Ask Kazusa if she's available tomorrow. We'll pick her up during school time and bring her over. Figure out a time and place to meet up. Don't take no for an answer; it's no trouble and you don't have anything better to do anyway.
    -[X] Explain: Your ability to refresh Seeds, so don't discard them. Clear Seeds, every meguca group should have one, you'd appreciate the chance to have more beta testers.
    [X] Once you're done with Kazusa, bring back the Privacy Bubble.
    [X] Tell them about you bringing Kazusa over, and then properly visiting Asunaro later on.
    -[X] Explain Hijiri's copy magic might give her access to the Pleiades mind/memory magics and push for Kirika (and Oriko) to accompany you to help counter that.
    -[X] Mami is going by default.
    [X] Say goodbye to the Kures.
    [X] Ask Homura to have that chat, in private.
    [x] Phoenixian
    [x] And now I'm worried about you Kazusa, you didn't answer about how hunting is, you're worried about Mitakihara being able to support seven girls when your group is seven girls, and you're apparently so busy hunting you don't have time for school. I can be over in an hour to refresh your gems and grief seeds.
    [x] The Pheonixian
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Hm. Okay, while I do now like @The Phoenixian's vote (and am continually annoyed with how spaces in usernames breaks @ autocompletion), I'm a bit concerned with how micromanaged we're getting to be again. There's not much forward guidance in case Firn decides to write a longer update, and there's a lot in that vote that Brinapilot should take care of:
[X] Keep gently supporting Mami and reassuring her. --Would we ever not?
- [X] You're concerned. Ask Mami for her guidance on how to approach things, and follow it.
[X]Sympathize with magical girl career pressures. Perhaps there's a solution: Segue into clear seed discussion -- Instead of this, put: "Suggest Clear Seeds as a solution" in the next line.
- [X] We have prototypes but need testers.
- [X] All it takes is any grief seed. Does she have a spare or should we provide one?
- [X] Give the standard disclaimers. --The fact that they're "standard disclaimers"...
[X] Try to touch on Asunaro meguca politics a bit. Especially old friends.
[X] Tell your friends that Kazuza is willing to visit Mitakihara.
-[X] Address any questions or concerns, offer to introduce Homura and Sayaka. -- Again, would we ever not?
-[X] Raincheck a conversation with Sayaka later.
[X] Offer to ferry over Michiru tomorrow. If it wouldn't be too much imposition? Be insistent.
-[X] Schedule the pickup at a convenient time. -- Not sure why this is needed.
[X] Keep the conversation going, but try to end it on a high note. -- Could be summarized as "Small talk; keep things positive"
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And then there's stuff in the vote that I'm not sure about at all:

[ ] Try to touch on Asunaro meguca politics a bit. Especially old friends.
--Um, what does this mean, exactly? Sabrina doesn't have any "old friends" in Asunano, nor does Mami. Maybe this needs to be expanded on, so @Firnagzen and the rest of us know what's being said?

[ ] Tell your friends that Kazuza is willing to visit Mitakihara.
-[ ] Address any questions or concerns, offer to introduce Homura and Sayaka.
-[ ] Raincheck a conversation with Sayaka later.

I'm not sure about pulling Sayaka into the conversation. I mean, we can, but it's not like Kazusa is pulling her friends in. Unless the other Saints are introduced, we should probably wait until after the conversation is over, and then tell Sayaka, Madoka and Hitomi that one of Mami's old kohais will be in town tomorrow with her team, and give details then.

So, I'd rework the above vote as:
[X] You're concerned. Ask Mami for her guidance on how to approach things, and follow it.
[X] Sympathize with magical girl career pressures.
- [X] Suggest Clear Seeds as a solution. We have prototypes but need testers.
- [X] All it takes is any grief seed. Does she have a spare or should we provide one?
[???] Try to touch on Asunaro meguca politics a bit. Especially old friends. -- Removed pending explanation.
[X] Offer to ferry over Michiru tomorrow. Be insistent; it's no trouble for you at all.
[X] Small talk; keep things positive.
[X] After the conversation is over, bring the Mitakihara crowd up to speed about Kazusa and the Saints' visit.
[X] Lower Cone of Silence, and bring up some of the redacted details from your metaknowledge, like Hijiri and her power.
[X] Say goodbye to the Kures.
[X] Ask Homura to have that chat, in private.
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and will ask @The Narrator, @Karnewarrior, @Lone Courier 6, @Higure, @defenestrator, @AnonymousRabbit, @4Dname if they're fine with me changing our vote to that too.
 
TheEyes said:
Hm. Okay, while I do now like @The Phoenixian's vote (and am continually annoyed with how spaces in usernames breaks @ autocompletion), I'm a bit concerned with how micromanaged we're getting to be again. There's not much forward guidance in case Firn decides to write a longer update, and there's a lot in that vote that Brinapilot should take care of:

And then there's stuff in the vote that I'm not sure about at all:

[ ] Try to touch on Asunaro meguca politics a bit. Especially old friends.
--Um, what does this mean, exactly? Sabrina doesn't have any "old friends" in Asunano, nor does Mami. Maybe this needs to be expanded on, so @Firnagzen and the rest of us know what's being said?

[ ] Tell your friends that Kazuza is willing to visit Mitakihara.
-[ ] Address any questions or concerns, offer to introduce Homura and Sayaka.
-[ ] Raincheck a conversation with Sayaka later.

I'm not sure about pulling Sayaka into the conversation. I mean, we can, but it's not like Kazusa is pulling her friends in. Unless the other Saints are introduced, we should probably wait until after the conversation is over, and then tell Sayaka, Madoka and Hitomi that one of Mami's old kohais will be in town tomorrow with her team, and give details then.

So, I'd rework the above vote as:

and will ask @The Narrator, @Karnewarrior, @Lone Courier 6, @Higure, @defenestrator, @AnonymousRabbit, @4Dname if they're fine with me changing our vote to that too.
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I'm fine with that.
 
I agree with the requirement that vote discussion happens in the thread, and I try to tell people to move it to the thread whenever I can. But that's not all of the discussion; it still happens on the Discord, just restricted to much longer horizons and much weaker hypotheses. Sadly, that means that most discussions don't get moved over; they aren't sufficiently relevant or important for people to go to the effort of summarizing them after the fact. For example, that Mikiel idea probably would've languished until we went to voting for metabombing Sayaka, six or twelve months from now.

That's fine! A lot of those ideas would never have come up in the thread anyway. Posting a one-line "hey guys what if x" out of the blue doesn't fly on a forum like SV. Similarly, in a fast-moving quest thread like this, long-term planning often falls by the wayside because there're always something more immediately important to be posting about. And I believe that it's better for half the thread to get that knowledge than for it is for it to not exist at all, which is why I strongly prefer the existence of the Discord in its current state over not having a Discord at all.

Best of all, however, would be for that knowledge to be accessible to everybody. And that's what I'm trying to work toward: I want to make it so easy for anyone to post a chatlog that everyone does post chatlogs, and then everyone can read chatlogs.

And so I'd like to call on both parties here to try to help me make this all better. On the side of the discordians, I'm going to be making an effort to get every important-ish discussion quoted and posted, and I'm going to be doing that by aggressively improving the user experience of my quoting tool and getting people into the habit of using it. And when those get posted to thread, I'd like to ask everyone to please not have shitstorms about the existence of the Discord. Responding to posted logs with toxic accusations won't lead to the Discord being banned. It'll just make people stop posting logs, and that hurts all of us.
 
To expand my apology, I was on the phone, and just saw mention of discord and then a flood of votes for Pheonixian. I shouldn't have assumed. I'm sorry.

Thank you Vebyast for posting the logs. I should have done due diligence and read them.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Hmm. As far as I recall, that was an attempt to try and obliquely gain information on the status of the original Yuuri, but @TheEyes is correct that it could use some refinement.
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Hm. While that's certainly interesting, and something we will need to consider bringing up when we swoop in and abduct very kindly drop in on Kazusa, it seems both extraneous and inappropriate to bring up here, tonight.
Higure said:
I'm fine with that.
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defenestrator said:
It's fine with me. Though I think the next update's gonna end before we reach the last two lines, so you could trim that to make the vote smaller, or use the extra word count for something else above.
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I doubt it myself. Okay, then:

[X] You're concerned, both about Kazusa's implied Grief Seed crunch and Mami's tension. Ask Mami for her guidance on how to approach things, and follow it.
[X] Sympathize with magical girl career pressures.
- [X] Suggest Clear Seeds as a solution. We have prototypes but need testers.
- [X] All it takes is any grief seed. Does she have a spare or should we provide one?
[X] Offer to ferry over Michiru tomorrow. Be insistent; it's no trouble for you at all.
[X] Small talk; keep things positive.

[X] After the conversation is over, bring the Mitakihara crowd up to speed about Kazusa and the Saints' visit.
[X] Lower Cone of Silence, and bring up some of the redacted details from your metaknowledge, like Hijiri and her power.
[ ] Say goodbye to the Kures.
[ ] Ask Homura to have that chat, in private. Since they're almost certain to not come up.
 
I want to be able to say that the idea of a "Discord shadow cabal" (or whatever you want to call it) is garbage. But the first time I was ever acknowledged on Discord was when someone criticized my omake with the expectation that I hadn't joined the server, with the expectation that I wasn't there to defend myself or even get offended.

Granted, their criticism was valid, and they were only one or two people, but - I don't know that they would have been willing to say it to my face, as dismissively and as callously as they did when they thought I wasn't looking. It was a shit first impression, and it left a seriously bad taste in my mouth.

When the contents of this thread can have adverse effects on Sabrina's mind, I think that incentivizes a certain kind of tactical tone-policing or self-censorship. Which is easy to accept, as one of the central conceits of a quest that's turned out very well so far. But that only gets more intense when there's an entire separate discussion forum which does not directly influence Sabrina, which is also apparently populated largely by long-time participants with a certain focus on and vested interest in the quest, even beyond your average reader and probably many voters.

I thought about just voicing this in the Discord rather than polluting the thread. But what the fuck kind of absolutely milquetoast would I be if I was so uncomfortable about the server, but I went ahead and used it to say this, anyways?
 
Subrosian_Smithy said:
I want to be able to say that the idea of a "Discord shadow cabal" (or whatever you want to call it) is garbage. But the first time I was ever acknowledged on Discord was when someone criticized my omake with the expectation that I hadn't joined the server, with the expectation that I wasn't there to defend myself or even get offended.

Granted, their criticism was valid, and they were only one or two people, but - I don't know that they would have been willing to say it to my face, as dismissively and as callously as they did when they thought I wasn't looking. It was a shit first impression, and it left a seriously bad taste in my mouth.
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For what it's worth, I'm sorry about that. I'd given exactly the same feedback to three near-identical versions of that omake just that week, each time with steadily diminishing reserves of self-control and steadily rising bile, and by the time you posted your version I'd gotten to the point where I wasn't going to be able to give you constructive feedback. I would have said it to your face, but the rest of the thread didn't deserve another flame war. Instead, I went over to the discord to vent in a place where I knew the response wouldn't involve edgelords trying to make my week even worse, which is what had happened the last two times I gave feedback on that omake. You were in the wrong place at the wrong time and I took it out on the wrong person.
 
AuraTwilight said:
True. But the thing is, all this shit from the first couple episodes should've still been in play in PMAS. But there's almost none of that animosity.
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As others have noted, Sayaka was still shit-talking Homura for most of the run of PMAS, well past the point where Mami had accepted her as a friend. She only apologized for it after the lichbomb when they realized that Homura was right and Kyubey really is a dick.

There's also the fact that since she contracted, the narrative has repeatedly pointed out Sayaka's obvious inexperience: reckless and short-tempered. Nothing at all like the Rebellion Sayaka, who calmly disabled Homura's timeturner with a casual backhand.
 
For what it's worth, my personal headcanon on an IF MIKIEL=TRUE is "She doesn't consciously remember and is pulling a Rebellion!Madoka."
 
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