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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Fair Letters said:
How does antagonizing him help anything?
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We didn't really do anything to antagonize him this time. We weren't friendly, but we didn't insult him or drop kick him (have we done in the past). We even said "thank you"!

Fair Letters said:
How does it help the people who don't like him for us to interact in a hostile manner when they aren't present?
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He means the people in the thread, not the people in-story.
 
Fair Letters said:
I'm pretty sure he cares about the work we make for him, otherwise he wouldn't repeatedly bring it up.
How does it help the people who don't like him for us to interact in a hostile manner when they aren't present?
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He is incapable of caring that we're rude to him, is what I thought you meant. Still, any work we make for him wiping minds is factored into his utility function and then crushed beneath the weight of us interfering with Madoka and planning to overhaul grief economics. The effect of not taking the masquerade seriously is negligible in light of those.

And yeah, I meant the people in the thread.
 
@Fair Letters in case you weren't aware Kyubey has no emotions. Nothing we do can "antagonize" him except in the sense that it could make him work towards our death as opposed to us witching out. He will always without fail work towards witching us out for the foreseeable future. There is virtually no possible interaction we can have with him that will cause him to decide to work towards our death instead that will not have the same root elements as our simply going about our plans will -- there is virtually nothing we can say to him to "antagonize" him that our intended actions won't convey just as well. Period. We say that we intend to genocide the incubator race, is really the only thing I can think of that would "antagonize" him in a way just going about our business won't -- and we don't intend to do it and we haven't said it and we won't say it.

Anything positive we could say to him is weighted equally by the energy that would be released if he succeeded in witching us -- energy = potential = net karma = net change we could affect. If we're capable of stopping entropy then to stop entropy he can just witch us.

I don't understand your argument.
 
Kaizuki said:
We say that we intend to genocide the incubator race, is really the only thing I can think of that would "antagonize" him in a way just going about our business won't -- and we don't intend to do it and we haven't said it and we won't say it.
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And even then, only if he thinks we have a chance of following through. Hopes and dreams don't count for much with Kyuubey.
 
The TL;DR here is that Kyubey would be our enemy no matter how nicely we acted towards him. By default, Kyubey is not only the enemy of all magical girls, but the enemy of all humanity. The only difference is that Sabrina knows it, while most MGs die without ever realizing the truth.
 
Slight nitpick for clarity: Kyubey would be our enemy independent of how we behaved toward him. We can be as nice or as abusive as we want, it barely affects his calculations at all. About the only argument I can think of is that being mean to him might give him "Sabrina did X to me!" type fuel, but I think that that's really tenuous.
 
@Onmur @Redshirt Army

I feel that just asking it as a favor is somewhere between insane and threatening. Giving us teleportation would be, as far as these people know, a big boost to our ability to screw them. As far as they're concerned, their principle safety against us is Sakura's ability to get them all the hell out of dodge. Giving us the ability, not only to transit to Sendai from Mitakihara at the drop of a hat, but also to follow them if they try to run -- that's a security risk. Obviously from our point of view that's completely irrelevant; if we really actually wanted them dead or gemmed or whatever and we didn't want to give them a chance to run, then we would simply send Homura after them and there would be absolutely nothing they could do about it. But from their point of view, asking them to give us teleportation as a favor is asking them to give up any chance of resisting us... as a favor. Talking about Walpurgisnacht is... well, I think it's batshit crazy, but it could somehow fit in and be interpreted as just more weirdness rather than a threat. Really, I just don't think we're currently in any position to impose on these people. I mean, we

Firnagzen said:
Which would explain how strained her polite smile and murmured niceties are.
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seem

Firnagzen said:
Tamiko tenses as she produces hers, keeping it caged between her fingers, as does Yumi.
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to have

Firnagzen said:
Tamiko tucks her Soul Gem away with a little more alacrity than is strictly polite
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slightly traumatized them. There's no need to put any further strain on these people, especially not in any way that would make us less popular with them. We have no social capital here, so-to-speak. And any we try to spend harms Rin's position since she's vaguely pro-us, which is extremely pro-us by this group's standards.

For that reason, I don't want to ask for or even talk about favors. But I think that we can afford to say that we would be interested in making a purchase. It makes it easier for them to turn us down, potentially, because it implies less closeness between our groups, and... I dunno, I feel like it's easier to refuse to sell something than it is to refuse a "favor" but that might be subconscious bullshit? I dunno.

I actually prefer the current situation for presenting an offer -- giving it to Rin and letting her relay it reinforces her position.



Mmmmpf. Maybe what I really think we should do is offer clear seed, check reactions and break to voting before we decide whether to say anything more. That's... probably what we should do, really.
 
On the other hand, if we do figure out a way to break the current system and save the meguca-s while also figuring out how to maximize the Incubators' Grief collection we could find them suddenly become our most powerful allies. It's something we probably ought to look into, if we want the world to not end.
 
Kaizuki said:
Mmmmpf. Maybe what I really think we should do is offer clear seed, check reactions and break to voting before we decide whether to say anything more. That's... probably what we should do, really.
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Yes, actually. Especially since our usual "I hope that, with these, nobody will ever have to fight over Grief Seeds any more. Be excellent to each other." speech will have a slightly different meaning to them, and their reaction to the big about witches is going to be a big deal. A shortish update sounds like an excellent idea to me. So, total vote:


[ ] Show concern. Differences aside, Akiko's a victim as much as anybody else. Offer help; defer to Rin's judgement.
[ ] Clear Seed. Standard explanation, but include the changes in the contained Witch's behavior and how it relates to Grief transference into it.
-[ ] Explain you're giving one of these away to every meguca group, and offer one to them.
 
Kaizuki said:
Mmmmpf. Maybe what I really think we should do is offer clear seed, check reactions and break to voting before we decide whether to say anything more. That's... probably what we should do, really.
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That's probably fine.

There's also... we do not need Sayaka to copy Sakura's powers... if we can directly get help from Sakura in emergencies.

Maybe we can straight up ask Rin if her group would help us if we called during an emergency.

EDIT:

[ ] Show concern. Differences aside, Akiko's a victim as much as anybody else. Offer help; defer to Rin's judgement.
[ ] Clear Seed. Standard explanation, but include the changes in the contained Witch's behavior and how it relates to Grief transference into it.
-[ ] Explain you're giving one of these away to every meguca group, and offer one to them.
-[Q?] ... The irony is not lost on us.

[ ] Braek. Votung. Nao.
 
Onmur said:
That's probably fine.

There's also... we do not need Sayaka to copy Sakura's powers... if we can directly get help from Sakura in emergencies.

Maybe we can straight up ask Rin if her group would help us if we called during an emergency.
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Not a bad idea but I do think let's hold off till after reactions for that. I think it's highly likely this group will take the clear seed and I think they will have strong reactions to the descriptors. Actually, if anything should be added I think it had ought to be a line about "don't let anyone drop a witchbomb", lol. Which... Actually should probably be thrown in, yeah!
 
Fair Letters said:
I'm pretty sure he cares about the work we make for him, otherwise he wouldn't repeatedly bring it up.
How does it help the people who don't like him for us to interact in a hostile manner when they aren't present?
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People lack an understanding of how Kyuubey thinks. So they just assume (and admittedly are 95% likely to be correct) that he is and always will be a direct enemy to everything we do.

Unfortunately they just assume all that is true and don't bother actually looking into it, making a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mostly because a subset of that group is under the impression that every word Kyuubey says is like a fungus or a nettle and will take root and rot out our soul, somehow. By and large, it's a very human and average reaction, and makes us very predictable to Kyuubey because it's precisely the reaction every other magical girl has after they learn about his true nature.

But also it makes Mumi sad. I still say we should head up to the roof after she's asleep and have a chat with the coobs about his side of the whole affair, since I see value in understanding the system completely before we break it, but at this point I've basically given up and become a passive aggressive gremlin.


Kaizuki said:
I feel that just asking it as a favor is somewhere between insane and threatening.
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Kai, I don't think that's how human psychology works. Ben Franklin actually used that trick to make an adversary of his a friend; It's a known quantity by now.

There's a possibility they might turn us down, but if they do it wouldn't be a disaster. Our relationship is strained, yes, but it's not like WWIII is going to break out if we lose Sendai Points.
 
Karnewarrior said:
Kai, I don't think that's how human psychology works. Ben Franklin actually used that trick to make an adversary of his a friend; It's a known quantity by now.
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I'm no psychologist and don't claim to be one. I think that asking them to give us teleportation as a favor is a bad idea for the reasons I have laid out.

Furthermore, the link you gave states that "A person who has performed a favor for someone is more likely to do another favor for that person than they would be if they had received a favor from that person." These people haven't done any favors for us to my knowledge, so I don't see your point...?
 
Karnewarrior said:
There's a possibility they might turn us down, but if they do it wouldn't be a disaster. Our relationship is strained, yes, but it's not like WWIII is going to break out if we lose Sendai Points.
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Nadia: "Extra, extra! Meguca World War II breaks out over minor Mitakihara-Sendai conflict! Read all about it!"

Randomguca: "Since when do you sell papers?"

Nadia: *Somber* "... Since the war."
 
I don't think we neccesarily need to defeat kyubey, if we able to give him a better alternative for his quota then we don't need to worry about kyubey anymore.

The question if is it worth the effort or if we(and by extension the girl) even want to
 
theauthor said:
I don't think we neccesarily need to defeat kyubey, if we able to give him a better alternative for his quota then we don't need to worry about kyubey anymore.

The question if is it worth the effort or if we(and by extension the girl) even want to
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Well of course we want to, if we can. I mean, if the Incubators get too concerned that we're going to screw over their system they could fairly easily Thor shot Mami's apartment while we're asleep; it's not like we can hide from them 24/7.
 
TheEyes said:
Well of course we want to, if we can. I mean, if the Incubators get too concerned that we're going to screw over their system they could fairly easily Thor shot Mami's apartment while we're asleep; it's not like we can hide from them 24/7.
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While the Incubators are not gonna bombard anyone, that's not what they do, they are basically an unbeatable enemy that lose by power of plot, usually. We shouldn't forget that.
 
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Onmur said:
While the Incubators are not gonna bombard anyone, that's not what they do, they are basically an unbeatable enemy that lose by power of plot, usually. We shouldn't forget that.
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I'm still tickled by the idea of Social-ing the Incubators; I don't think that's ever been done before, and would be the ultimate system break. We just need to convince them that Soul Gems generating Grief over an infinite amount of time is a greater return than the century or so's worth of Grief that is inside a Grief Seed.
 
Script Mak3r said:
No. She'd be too busy glaring at us. :V
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"So Homura, I made this Grief body that looks like myself, and I think I managed to stabilize the Grief Construct, so I was wondering-"

"You're not putting that in my shield."

*Pouts*

"How did you even know I was gonna ask for that?"

"I've looped over one hundred times."

"... Point."

"..."

"But did it work...?"

*Sighs*
 
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The Incubators can cause all kinds of trouble if they decide Brina is actually an enemy that needs to be removed.

I mean, Kyuubey could just set up on a roof with a sniper rifle, in theory, and start picking off soul gems. But they could just start spreading nasty rumors, if they wanted.

Even if they don't want to take an active role, however, Kyuubey could cause a lot of trouble just by going on strike. Sabrina has a fixed radius in which she can control grief, and seemingly finite density in which she can pack it. If Kyuubey just refused to dispose of her excess grief, how long would it take until it becomes completely unmanageable? Especially now that she's reaching out to many, many more magical girls, and promising them unlimited cleansing? How long before the local area is so witchy-feeling that no sane magical girl will get in eyeshot of her? Is there some point at which too much high-energy grief in proximity causes a reaction or collapses into a really trippy neutron star or something?
 
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