Muramasa
Best Girl
Come on. No one thinks like this. Please avoid using strawman arguments. All it does is add toxicity to the discussion.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Come on. No one thinks like this. Please avoid using strawman arguments. All it does is add toxicity to the discussion.
- Location
- Austria
First two paragraphs were more or less citing what was in Discord. And I am not even joking, comparisons to WMDs and blowing up the Earth and all the thing about destabilizing society are...almost verbatim quotes.
Like, I am not even exaggerating.
I can quote what I based things on.
It is not even a strawman.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Fun fact: whenever NGOs try to distribute aid in some unstable region without peacekeeping troops to guard the shipments and keep belligerents at bay, most of the aid will be stolen by warlords en route. This is still generally considered better than nothing.
The key differences in this situation are:
- We are fully capable of defending our deliveries, being better armed than most belligerents.
- The recipients are capable of defending what they've received after delivery, being as well armed as the belligerents.
- There is no need or advantage to possessing more than one grief-cleansing device per magical girl, so each recipient only needs to receive one successful shipment, rather than a constant supply, while belligerents don't increase their power by obtaining more.
- The belligerents are already armed, and the supplies don't arm them with heavier weapons but only allow them to not die from expending ammunition. While this does increase their ability to do harm somewhat, it doesn't really make them any harder to neutralize if they go rogue.
- We are fully willing and capable of neutralizing belligerents that become problematic with overwhelming force, and they cannot hide from us among the general population due to our grief senses.
- The majority of hostilities are directly related to resources, without political motivations, religious or ethnic intolerance, or generations of cyclical revanchism to continue driving people to violence once resources have become abundant.
- All factions have a common enemy on which to redirect their aggressions: the alien invaders that created this situation.
Additionally, the idea that the majority of magical girls might be irrationally hostile and destructive isn't really supported by the text, which has only featured a bare handful of truly sociopathic magical girls out of dozens depicted. Most only use violence for pragmatic reasons related to resource limitations or when driven irrational by excessive gem corruption, both of which would be non-issues. The few who would still be motivated to violence in a grief-free world would be vastly outnumbered by those who would not want their newfound safety destabilized.
Plus we're mainly talking about those who are already magical girls, who were explicltly selected for being more angsty than average.
It doesn't have to be a majority - the fact that there's been more than one out of the mere dozens we've seen across all canon works means there are almost certainly hundreds in the world.
I'm not sure how being outnumbered actually helps.
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- Location
- Austria
Yes.
Of course. Does it make helping others less important? It is not like they will stop being assholes without access to unlimited cleansing, and with such quite a lot of girls who were driven to such life by scarcity will probably get less assholish. Like, I don't doubt that Kyouko would be way less of a rough person if she didn't have Damocles sword of grief over her head.
It is...ugh. It is like the terrorism, which is not product of malice (though it is totally there) as much as of people without anything in their life being picked up and used by assholes. Give every single person in the world unlimited food, water, electricity and roof over head and I doubt world will explode in violence.
With meguca it is more problematic because of the individual power of their, but they are still human, if possibly more emotional and angsty (?) than average, and so similar logic applies.
Of course, if some meguca somewhere has extremely expensive and strong power and is an asshole (like evil!Homura), she will be a problem. Such people would be able to "find" Seeds anyway, so while a matter to consider, they are still less of an issue then what, dozens? hundreds of girls that witch out or die daily all over the world.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
It is important to keep in mind that, under the current system, the more dangerous girls are more likely to have an abundance of Seeds anyway, while the less dangerous girls are more likely to suffer from shortages. So mass cleansing distribution will give a greater advantage to friendlies than to hostiles.
I don't deny that there will still be some who want to continue hostilities. Akiko wouldn't have let go of her hatred for Ishinomaki no matter what happened. But Akiko also already had an incredible abundance of Grief Seeds, so her ability to do damage would not have been increased at all by having unlimited cleansing, whereas her would-be victims were suffering under a constant shortage of Seeds that made it difficult for them to defend themselves. Likewise, Akiko was only able to hire the Fukushima mercenaries that gave us so much trouble because there was a demand for Seeds: without that they wouldn't have given her the time of day. Most of the magical girls will probably be like them: without a need for Seeds they will see no reason to endanger themselves by engaging in violence, just as most people in general will not risk their lives in combat without a compelling reason.
I don't deny that there will still be some who want to continue hostilities. Akiko wouldn't have let go of her hatred for Ishinomaki no matter what happened. But Akiko also already had an incredible abundance of Grief Seeds, so her ability to do damage would not have been increased at all by having unlimited cleansing, whereas her would-be victims were suffering under a constant shortage of Seeds that made it difficult for them to defend themselves. Likewise, Akiko was only able to hire the Fukushima mercenaries that gave us so much trouble because there was a demand for Seeds: without that they wouldn't have given her the time of day. Most of the magical girls will probably be like them: without a need for Seeds they will see no reason to endanger themselves by engaging in violence, just as most people in general will not risk their lives in combat without a compelling reason.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
We'll definitely need a construct that cleanses later; while giving it to Humans might be a bit of an odd decision, I don't think giving it to all meguca eventually would be a evil decision. However, if we slow down the process a tad, we can ascertain that the clear seeds/constructs are distributed to Peacekeepers before being distributed to the more warlike girls, giving them an opportunity to form a better governance over their area, subservient to ours or not. It would also provide incentives for the more sociopathic girls out there to start behaving more like normal members of society, which is good because it means they go from "Murder mode" into "Asshole Boss" which is a positive improvement.
The great goal of government and religion isn't to make good men act good. They already do that. The goal is to make Evil Men act Good, because those people need something to tell them not to shank puppies.
The great goal of government and religion isn't to make good men act good. They already do that. The goal is to make Evil Men act Good, because those people need something to tell them not to shank puppies.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
They wouldn't be any use to normal humans, barring allies like Madoka and Hitomi who might need to save a grief-spiraling meguca, so the suggestion that they'd be distributed to muggles is a bit confusing to me. It doesn't seem that it would serve any purpose.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
On one hand, Kaname visit yay! On the other hand, I really wanted to make some Speckled Enchantements and have them ready before tomorrow. I know we might or might not be able to create a Lie Detector, but I'd want to try and have that before meeting Bennouna, and definitely that and some Protective Enchantments before leaving the city.
Maybe we can bring it up with Mami in the morning.
On the matter of World Cleansing, I want to say that some of the UG girls have been very clear about their resentment towards Akiko's (now Rin's) group; and I don't think they would be so ready to make peace if not for Chouko being a pretty damn good and nice leader.
So, if left alone, specially if they didn't need to Hunt for themselves (with unlimited magic)? Those girls would most likely cause trouble, out for revenge. So while we try to provide world wide cleansing, we really need to make sure megucas get support groups.
Grief Scarcity is a big part of KB's tools, but not the only one; we need to foment camaraderie/peace/niceness/whatever as well as we can. If possible, find meguca who could take it upon themselves to find lone meguca and integrate them into groups.
I think many meguca witch out within a week? I doubt we can Break The Masquerade, so KB will still be able to make that happen. Loneliness still sucks.
Maybe we can bring it up with Mami in the morning.
On the matter of World Cleansing, I want to say that some of the UG girls have been very clear about their resentment towards Akiko's (now Rin's) group; and I don't think they would be so ready to make peace if not for Chouko being a pretty damn good and nice leader.
So, if left alone, specially if they didn't need to Hunt for themselves (with unlimited magic)? Those girls would most likely cause trouble, out for revenge. So while we try to provide world wide cleansing, we really need to make sure megucas get support groups.
Grief Scarcity is a big part of KB's tools, but not the only one; we need to foment camaraderie/peace/niceness/whatever as well as we can. If possible, find meguca who could take it upon themselves to find lone meguca and integrate them into groups.
I think many meguca witch out within a week? I doubt we can Break The Masquerade, so KB will still be able to make that happen. Loneliness still sucks.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Resentment caused by actions that Akiko took because of a desire to have a surplus of Grief Seeds.
Keep in mind that scarcity of Seeds did not make them any less willing to go to war with Sendai. If anything it made their need to go to war even more pressing. But now that they have a steady supply and are no longer under constant threat, it's easier for them to move past it. Does the resentment still exist? Sure, but without miserable living conditions, it's no longer worth jeopardizing a comfortable and safe existence to get revenge.
Again, all our previous experiences seem to indicate that the lack of cleansing doesn't prevent conflicts. If anything, it exacerbates them.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
And the abundance of food didn't make First-World nations stop going to war with each other. It just changed the reasons to go.
Unless you want to suggest America went to war with Iraq because they were hungry.
Unless you want to suggest America went to war with Iraq because they were hungry.
- Location
- South Africa
I seriously cannot believe what I'm reading.
As said, the girls most likely to cause problems with unlimited cleaning are the ones who need it the least and who benefit from their victims not having it the most. Also, people dying is a much smaller problem than people becoming withes (though, I will acknowledge that some disagree with that). Then there's the fact that muggles and more defenseless and and decent magical girls who have these rings can be armed by us with grief constructs we can set to be unusable by anyone else. Then there's the fact that a girl having infinite cleansing doesn't make her more difficult for us to beat. Then there's the fact that spreading these rings also spreads knowledge of our existence, meaning that unlike the situation now, where girls are oppressing and we don't even know about it, girls, and even muggles, will know to call us for help.
EDIT:^ It didn't make them more likely to go to war either and it also meant that those nations attacked were more able to cope with the strain until a third party can help them out.
EDIT: Look, my biggest priority which reduces all others to insignificance is making witching utterly impossible. As far as I'm concerned, there is no consequence too severe for that.
As said, the girls most likely to cause problems with unlimited cleaning are the ones who need it the least and who benefit from their victims not having it the most. Also, people dying is a much smaller problem than people becoming withes (though, I will acknowledge that some disagree with that). Then there's the fact that muggles and more defenseless and and decent magical girls who have these rings can be armed by us with grief constructs we can set to be unusable by anyone else. Then there's the fact that a girl having infinite cleansing doesn't make her more difficult for us to beat. Then there's the fact that spreading these rings also spreads knowledge of our existence, meaning that unlike the situation now, where girls are oppressing and we don't even know about it, girls, and even muggles, will know to call us for help.
EDIT:^ It didn't make them more likely to go to war either and it also meant that those nations attacked were more able to cope with the strain until a third party can help them out.
EDIT: Look, my biggest priority which reduces all others to insignificance is making witching utterly impossible. As far as I'm concerned, there is no consequence too severe for that.
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- Location
- Austria
Which totally means that abundance of food was a mistake and threat of starvation should have been used for a peacemaking, right?
If US started using their humanitarian aid as a political tool to bludgeon warlords into compliance, how would it look? Now they don't - for example, despite backing rebels, humanitarian aid to Syria cooperates with government. If it were used as a tool to press on it instead, well, it would be pretty shitty thing to do.
More relevantly, Sabrina may die or go away or whatever at any moment. So either making grief removal thingies self-replicating or teaching other gucas to do it is quite important, because Sabrina being single point of failure is just bad and inefficient.
Of course, as wording of wish was "I Wish to control all the grief", not "I Wish to give other meguca tool to deal with grief w/o cannibalism", doing anything which allows other to solve their shit on their own may be outside of Wish's thematics.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
No, they went to war with Iraq because they wanted easier access to an economically necessary energy resource. Which, you know, could also be considered an analogy for the whole grief seed situation.
America didn't go to war with Iraq because they weren't hungry. Forcing a famine on America would not make it less belligerent.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
In the analogy, Grief Seeds are also Electricity, Oil, etc., so uh....it still holds.
War for oil? Yeah, right; the oil was flowing just fine with Saddam in power. It took a decade to get even a little bit of production back after the war was over, and what is being produced isn't going to the US anyway, since we get our oil from Canada, Venesuela, Brazil, and Saudi Arabia, among other places.
The second Iraq war had one immediate cause, and two underlying causes, all of them political. The first underlying cause was that Bush Junior really, really wanted to finish what Bush Senior decided (wisely) not to do, and oust Saddam Hussein. He was looking for a fight to get involved in anyway because his approval ratings were falling after the Afghanistan war went so well that we probably could have pulled out entirely fairly soon (though we ended up pulling out too quickly, necessitating the "Surge" back in), and he needed another war to bolster his popularity in time for the election. This allowed Bush to jump on the, as it turned out, flawed intelligence assessment that Saddam was building WMDs to invade somewhere else again.
This is all getting close to going off-topic, but the point of this post is that people will find reasons to start fights that have nothing to do with starvation: it wasn't starvation that set off the Crusades, either World War, or indeed many of the major international conflicts the world has seen, really. Starvation tends to cause internal strife; external wars are mostly about politics. Old men talking, and young men dying.
One of the big problems with giving everyone Grief Lantern rings is that Grief Lantern rings are themselves extremely powerful weapons, both in and of themselves and because they allow a magical girl access to infinite destructive magic, and if we release them to everyone you end up in a situation like the United States is today, but worse because it's not guns that the crazy mass-murders have access to, it's nuke-guns, and you don't even need to actively seek one out because it's being handed to you directly. That's not to say that we shouldn't give out Grief cleansing to all, but we can't just release it willy-nilly with no accountability, lest we cause a worse problem than we're trying to fix.
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- South Africa
I disagree with the premise that it's physically possible to create a worse problem than what we're trying to fix even by actively trying to.
Yet again, the girls that would cause problems with infinite magic are the girls that already are causing problems, aren't the girls with shortages anyway, and which benefit from their victims having those shortages. At least this gives them the opportunity to fight back, and they'd know we exist and so could contact us for help, unlike the current situation where they get wiped out without us ever knowing about it. What's more, by providing them to muggles, we can arm muggles to fight against such girls themselves, unlike the current situation where these girls have no checks against them.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
So did Americans thought before they went into the Middle East.
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- South Africa
No, I'm being serious. You cannot describe a scenario I would consider worse than the current situation. A magical girl enslaving the world population? A magical girl becoming the worst serial killer to have ever lived? A high-powered magical war that covers the planet? The extinction of humanity? The planet being blown up? None of that even registers compare to the infinite terribleness of the current situation AFAIC. So yes, I consider the current situation literally infinitely bad, so it can't get any worse under any situation IMO. Of course, I realise that others disagree with me, but that's my position.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
A magical girl using unlimited power to force other girls to witch out making sabrain turn them into more clear seeds under the threat of feeding the ones she has to kuyby.
If you cant think of how things can get worse then you lack imagination.
That being said I am Pro giving out clear seeds in mass.
This sounds like the sort of justification the NRA uses when they argue against gun control. "Well at least people will be able to fight back." Only, in this case, you want to hand weapons out that are so powerful that they can affect dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of people at once, and cause effects at conceptual levels. I'd say that Grief Lantern rings are like nuke guns that are keyed to an individual's emotions, except that may not be extreme enough.
No, allowing Grief Lantern rings to freely propagate is not a good first step towards anything other than the end of all life on Earth, and maybe the galaxy. All you need is one idiot to cast "Create Antimatter" or "Generate Descolada".
---
Getting back to the actual vote, does anyone have any opinion on what to do next? @Sereg wants to talk about Soulguca, but I have no idea what use that knowledge could possibly have in the next 24-48 hours; anyone else have any opinion on that?
Then there's whether to talk to Homura, and maybe Madoka, or just go home and relax with Mami. I'm of the opinion that we need to debrief Homura, and tell her to
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
In any case, this conversation is fruitless; We don't know if we can even make Grief Lantern Rings. And so there's no reason to argue abut them.
More likely we'll be using Clear Seeds for a good while yet - The Asunaro girls may have made a sapient Witch, but it was still a witch. It may be they cannot help us with true De-witching. Or they can, but we cannot come up with a solution to the lack of grief seeds that would occur from dewitching everyone. Or we get both of those things tomorrow, and Walpurgis Nacht wrecks everything, Madoka Contracts, Homura loops, and then whatever giant GigaWitch that lives under that Suicide Forest near Fuji wakes up and eats Japan. Who knows?
In any case, I'd expect the experience of being a Clear Seed to be far preferable to being an active Witch - Kazumi may let us experiment on her (She's the Witch, right?) when we pop by to say hello, if everything is explained. Or her situation may be different. It's all speculation right now.
Right now we ought to get moving on some of the other things we need to do. With the Kyosaya bomb diffused by way of Yuma, The next biggest objective is getting Homura Potentialbombed as soon as reasonable, because it's a big vulnerability. After that is shoring up the Don't Make A Wish Foundation for Madoka. We may or may not want to Witchbomb her; if we do, we'll have to Gretchenbomb her too. Thankfully, Madoka isn't vulnerable to Emotional Hazards like that, so the biggest threat there comes from her accidentally witchbombing Sayaka, easily deflected by telling her exactly why we haven't done that yet. This could also factor into the Make Madoka Batman Plan: If we press on her that Emotional Hazards can be dangerous to Puella, we may be able to get her thinking along the lines that some Memetic Engineering could make the whole affair more stable. I'm definitely of the opinion that Madoka is a lot smarter than she seems; to me, her behavior seems indicative of a Genius suffering from Emiya Shirou Syndrome. Making her MemeBatman might help deflect those tendencies into areas that won't make Homura explode.
Oriko seems to have accepted what we've said thus far, which means she may be able to make some progress on her own now. Leaving her to stew on it for a little while may be to our benefit, and would free up time for more important things. Kirika also has completely drunk our Kool-Aid, and thus will be an active force in Rehabilitating Oriko. The only input we need on this front is getting Homura to lighten up on them a little bit. The best way to do that may be the Don't Make a Wish Foundation meeting. Homura would probably be willing to do whatever Madoka asks her to do, if Madoka phrases it right. And it would help give Madoka a sense of helping.
Then there's the meeting with the Tokyo Council or whatever they are. That's going to be a year out-of-game time as well. It may also herald the return of the Mega-votes; Politics is finicky, and giving as much thought to every single word as possible could be to our benefit. Brining Mami is a must - not only is she famous, she also has much higher SOCIAL than we do. If we fuck up, she may be best suited to repairing our mistake. OR we could just let her do the talking, which may be better.
We need to think about these things, not Grief. We're being a bit too Oriko here and are getting obsessed with our own powers, and we need to slow down. Fixing everything right away will result, at best, with us in a coma from over-working. Brina needs sleep badly, and it's not evil not to SMITE EVIL 24/7. Part of being a good Paladin is knowing when Evil can be ignored in favor of bigger things, or when it's too big for one person alone to fix. Yes, the current system is Evil. But we have things in progress we need to see through, and we have people we're close to we need to save first before we can save the British/American/Mali Meguca. There's nothing wrong with valuing your friends over people you don't know a continent away.
More likely we'll be using Clear Seeds for a good while yet - The Asunaro girls may have made a sapient Witch, but it was still a witch. It may be they cannot help us with true De-witching. Or they can, but we cannot come up with a solution to the lack of grief seeds that would occur from dewitching everyone. Or we get both of those things tomorrow, and Walpurgis Nacht wrecks everything, Madoka Contracts, Homura loops, and then whatever giant GigaWitch that lives under that Suicide Forest near Fuji wakes up and eats Japan. Who knows?
In any case, I'd expect the experience of being a Clear Seed to be far preferable to being an active Witch - Kazumi may let us experiment on her (She's the Witch, right?) when we pop by to say hello, if everything is explained. Or her situation may be different. It's all speculation right now.
Right now we ought to get moving on some of the other things we need to do. With the Kyosaya bomb diffused by way of Yuma, The next biggest objective is getting Homura Potentialbombed as soon as reasonable, because it's a big vulnerability. After that is shoring up the Don't Make A Wish Foundation for Madoka. We may or may not want to Witchbomb her; if we do, we'll have to Gretchenbomb her too. Thankfully, Madoka isn't vulnerable to Emotional Hazards like that, so the biggest threat there comes from her accidentally witchbombing Sayaka, easily deflected by telling her exactly why we haven't done that yet. This could also factor into the Make Madoka Batman Plan: If we press on her that Emotional Hazards can be dangerous to Puella, we may be able to get her thinking along the lines that some Memetic Engineering could make the whole affair more stable. I'm definitely of the opinion that Madoka is a lot smarter than she seems; to me, her behavior seems indicative of a Genius suffering from Emiya Shirou Syndrome. Making her MemeBatman might help deflect those tendencies into areas that won't make Homura explode.
Oriko seems to have accepted what we've said thus far, which means she may be able to make some progress on her own now. Leaving her to stew on it for a little while may be to our benefit, and would free up time for more important things. Kirika also has completely drunk our Kool-Aid, and thus will be an active force in Rehabilitating Oriko. The only input we need on this front is getting Homura to lighten up on them a little bit. The best way to do that may be the Don't Make a Wish Foundation meeting. Homura would probably be willing to do whatever Madoka asks her to do, if Madoka phrases it right. And it would help give Madoka a sense of helping.
Then there's the meeting with the Tokyo Council or whatever they are. That's going to be a year out-of-game time as well. It may also herald the return of the Mega-votes; Politics is finicky, and giving as much thought to every single word as possible could be to our benefit. Brining Mami is a must - not only is she famous, she also has much higher SOCIAL than we do. If we fuck up, she may be best suited to repairing our mistake. OR we could just let her do the talking, which may be better.
We need to think about these things, not Grief. We're being a bit too Oriko here and are getting obsessed with our own powers, and we need to slow down. Fixing everything right away will result, at best, with us in a coma from over-working. Brina needs sleep badly, and it's not evil not to SMITE EVIL 24/7. Part of being a good Paladin is knowing when Evil can be ignored in favor of bigger things, or when it's too big for one person alone to fix. Yes, the current system is Evil. But we have things in progress we need to see through, and we have people we're close to we need to save first before we can save the British/American/Mali Meguca. There's nothing wrong with valuing your friends over people you don't know a continent away.
- Location
- South Africa
Their victims have infinite cleansing, so this is impossible. Try again.
The destruction of the galaxy is an infinite improvement over the current situation IMO. We currently have infinite badness. Destroying everything would mean we have zero badness. That said, I acknowledge that others view things differently.
Gun control is an entirely separate thing as people can survive without guns. Magical girls not only cannot survive without cleansing, when they run out, they start killing random people and no longer have the limits they used to have. Also, 97% of bad guys with guns are stopped with unarmed people. Their are far fewer bad guys with magic who are stopped by people without magic. Also, attempts by good guys with magic to stop the bad guys with magic tend to cause the good guys with magic to run out of cleansing, kill random people and make the bad guys with magic even ore powerful and harder to stop.
And yes, we benefit from finding out about Soulguca right away as we can start preparing for her and maybe bring her here before Oriko suffers permanent damage that is beyond her ability to fix, before te rest of her helpful team might die, and before Kyuubey turns her against us and Oriko.
Discussing grief lantern rings is important, because if people are irrationally afraid of them, they'll never allow us to try make them. If we can convince them otherwise, we can have something else to negotiate with the Tokyo Council on and can prevent all the witchouts that are currently happening as we speak.
I also disagree with the premise that valuing your friends over people you don't know a continent away isn't wrong.
Uhh, what? That makes no sense.