How is giving Sayaka the ability to cleanse at absolutely any time without limit more of a danger to her emotional issues than leaving her alone?
It isn't, but it's not going to help them either. Anyone could use that thing, Sayaka's just the person whose hand we put it in. That's not Sayaka helping, that's us helping. Us helping isn't bad on its own, but trying to convince Sayaka that using this thing we made is her helping people is just patronizing. Being patronizing to someone with self-worth issues is bad. For Sayaka to feel like she's contributing she has to do something that we couldn't assign to Tatsuya.
 
It isn't, but it's not going to help them either. Anyone could use that thing, Sayaka's just the person whose hand we put it in. That's not Sayaka helping, that's us helping. Us helping isn't bad on its own, but trying to convince Sayaka that using this thing we made is her helping people is just patronizing. Being patronizing to someone with self-worth issues is bad. For Sayaka to feel like she's contributing she has to do something that we couldn't assign to Tatsuya.
[Q] Don't ask Sayaka to be a baby.
-[Q] Do congratulate Tatsuya on being a baby, though.
--[Q] Good job, baby!
 
Also, while it's not a permanent solution for obvious ethical reasons, Sayaka currently has access to (practically) unlimited cleansing through a Clear Seed, and we specifically jumped through a few hoops so she feels she "earned" it, by asking her for a 'favor' of letting us do an 'experimental procedure' on a Grief Seed she felt she earned.
 
It isn't, but it's not going to help them either. Anyone could use that thing, Sayaka's just the person whose hand we put it in. That's not Sayaka helping, that's us helping. Us helping isn't bad on its own, but trying to convince Sayaka that using this thing we made is her helping people is just patronizing. Being patronizing to someone with self-worth issues is bad. For Sayaka to feel like she's contributing she has to do something that we couldn't assign to Tatsuya.

How is giving someone cleansing not helping their emotional issues?

I'm not claiming that giving her cleansing isn't us helping. I'm claiming its us helping by completely removing the biggest limits she has which reduce her own ability to help.

Tatsuya doesn't have any magic that giving him cleansing reduces the limits of. Besides, if we created a device whose sole ability was improving Sayaka's, and only Sayaka's, ability to help, giving it to her would still be a handout. In order to not give her handouts, we'd have to decide to refuse to help her at all, which is dangerously irresponsible and cruel.

Clear Seeds are something we want to stop using ASAP, so why are we treating them as a valid point?

Besides, if I give someone tools, they're still the ones doing the labour.

Really, what I'm saying is how is my suggestion patronising while there is another hypothetical method of helping her that isn't? And why is patronising Sayaka more bad than allowing her to get herself killed or refusing to help the rest of the magical world?

I have self-worth issues. I don't like it when people are patronising either. Do you know what I'd find even more patronising and generally disgusting? Someone deciding to deliberately avoid helping others out of fear of hurting my feelings? How is Sayaka not going to feel the same way and even if she doesn't, how is hurting her feelings, by proving something that removes the danger of her hurt feelings, worse than deliberately allowing her and the rest of the world to suffer and die?
 
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@Sereg, how about we agree to set aside the Grief Lantern bit until we have a prayer of actually making one?

@Redshirt Army, do you mind if we get the Grief-speckled defensive enchantments done before we start studying Grief containment enchants? We absolutely need to get those done before we go anywhere truly dangerous, like Tokyo (did we ever respond to that invite?) or Asunaro, and this is the time, especially if we want Mami to copy them.
 
It's the Return of the Wall of Text!

Used to be bigger, though, I think.

Sorry. Divided into more paragraphs.

Cause in the end she can just choose not to use the seed in the first place?

I was talking about the power to cleanse, not seeds. That argument is like saying that giving the homeless food isn't helping them as they could choose to not eat it and just starve. Yes, they could. But that isn't because you refused to help them. If you didn't give them that food, they'd be forced to stave. At least you've provided another option.

EDIT: ^ I believe that the only thing stopping us from making one right now is refusal to vote for it.
 
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That argument is like saying that giving the homeless food isn't helping them as they could choose to not eat it and just starve.
The only homeless people who'd matter for this comparison are homeless people who would reject that food if they didn't earn it, because it'd hurt their pride or something else. Otherwise the comparison just doesn't pertain to this situation.

Sure Sayaka could use Grief powers, every meguca could. But for Sayaka this would compound a failure of her powers, of her Wish.
 
The only homeless people who'd matter for this comparison are homeless people who would reject that food if they didn't earn it, because it'd hurt their pride or something else. Otherwise the comparison just doesn't pertain to this situation.

Sure Sayaka could use Grief powers, every meguca could. But for Sayaka this would compound a failure of her powers, of her Wish.
And you're still dodging the questions. How is helping her in literally any other way not exactly the same and how is this more important than helping the rest of the world?
 
I kinda want to see Sayaka shoot a 2 meter wide sword at something now.
Is that even a sword at that point?

How is helping her in literally any other way not exactly the same and how is this more important than helping the rest of the world?
The only homeless people who'd matter for this comparison are homeless people who would reject that food if they didn't earn it, because it'd hurt their pride or something else. Otherwise the comparison just doesn't pertain to this situation.

Sure Sayaka could use Grief powers, every meguca could. But for Sayaka this would compound a failure of her powers, of her Wish.
Sure Sayaka could use Grief powers, every meguca could. But for Sayaka this would compound a failure of her powers, of her Wish.
for Sayaka this would compound a failure of her powers, of her Wish.

You know how, when somebody have something they're good at, and feel that's what gives them worth; if they see somebody else being better, it can make them feel bad?

Sayaka put her Soul into 'being useful'. Her Wish. Which failed at what it's supposed to do, when used on us. Then we go and basically show her it doesn't matter?

Why did Sayaka sell her Soul, then?
 
I think it may be less that he's dodging your questions, and more you just not liking his answers? I dunno.
They aren't answers at all.

EDIT:^ You explained why it would be bad. You still haven't explained why helping her in any other way is physically capable of being any less bad in absolutely any way. You have also failed to explain why this is more bad than countless magical girls around the world witching out when we had the means to protect them but chose not to. As such, you are answering completely different questions from the ones I asked.
 
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They aren't answers at all.

EDIT:^ You explained why it would be bad. You still haven't explained why helping her in any other way is physically capable of being any less bad in absolutely any way. You have also failed to explain why this is more bad than countless magical girls around the world witching out when we had the means to protect them but chose not to. As such, you are answering completely different questions from the ones I asked.

To put it in the most cynical terms possible, there exist ways of manipulating Sayaka so she feels she can take credit for improvements we spoonfeed her. This is more optimal then just bluntly shoving power at her, because it improves her mental state, and her mental state is more important than her raw power level at this time.

The witching out of other magical girls is a non sequitur unrelated to the discussion at hand. For that matter, Sayaka witching out is also an irrelevant point, because she already has access to more cleansing then she'll need for the next few decades.
 
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To put it in the most cynical terms possible, there exist ways of manipulating Sayaka so she feels she can take credit for improvements we spoonfeed her. This is more optimal then just bluntly shoving power at her, because it improves her mental state, and her mental state is more important than her raw power level at this time.

The witching out of other magical girls is a non sequitur unrelated to the discussion at hand. For that matter, Sayaka witching out is also an irrelevant point, because she already has access to more cleansing then she'll need for the next few decades.
Thank you. Much better. That said, just like we could do that for the clear seed, I don't see how we couldn't do that for the grief lantern ring.

As to why it's not a nonsequitor, here's why. Refusing to distribute grief lantern rings means that costless cleansing is only available from us, so girls who meet those who are in desperate need of a cleanse never get access to the cleansing we can provide them. If we reduce grief seed stock by dewitching, the problem gets far worse. As for Sayaka's clear seed, we don't want her to keep it, so why are you usingit as an argument? Even despite that, she is capable of losing it, forgetting it at home, having it stolen, etc.
 
Thank you. Much better. That said, just like we could do that for the clear seed, I don't see how we couldn't do that for the grief lantern ring.

It'd be much more difficult. The issue is that I can't think of a way of making Sayaka feel she "earned" something that we plan to give away for free, without involving her in the creation process.

We only got away with the Clear Seed because we made it out of a literal trophy from a foe Sayaka defeated. If we wanted to give her a ring that held a copy of our powers, the only way I can see her accepting it is if her copy magic enchantment was a key component of creating the ring.

To be fair, since I'm actually quite sceptical of our power being able to be freely shared by us (we, personally, wished to control all grief - spreading grief control goes directly against our wish), Sayaka's input would likely be required to pull it off anyway.
 
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How is giving someone cleansing not helping their emotional issues?

I'm not claiming that giving her cleansing isn't us helping. I'm claiming its us helping by completely removing the biggest limits she has which reduce her own ability to help.

Tatsuya doesn't have any magic that giving him cleansing reduces the limits of. Besides, if we created a device whose sole ability was improving Sayaka's, and only Sayaka's, ability to help, giving it to her would still be a handout. In order to not give her handouts, we'd have to decide to refuse to help her at all, which is dangerously irresponsible and cruel.

Clear Seeds are something we want to stop using ASAP, so why are we treating them as a valid point?

Besides, if I give someone tools, they're still the ones doing the labour.

Really, what I'm saying is how is my suggestion patronising while there is another hypothetical method of helping her that isn't? And why is patronising Sayaka more bad than allowing her to get herself killed or refusing to help the rest of the magical world?

I have self-worth issues. I don't like it when people are patronising either. Do you know what I'd find even more patronising and generally disgusting? Someone deciding to deliberately avoid helping others out of fear of hurting my feelings? How is Sayaka not going to feel the same way and even if she doesn't, how is hurting her feelings, by proving something that removes the danger of her hurt feelings, worse than deliberately allowing her and the rest of the world to suffer and die?
We're already helping her quite a bit, and we've made sure that she knows that she can come to us for help with just about anything. Giving her more "free" help is likely to make her self-worth issues worse.

Remember, Sayaka contracted because she felt like she was totally reliant on the goodwill and effort of her friends, being a burden on them whilst being unable to contribute anything of worth in return.

She's fine with accepting training and advice, since that makes her a better magical girl, more competent, and less of a burden--it increases her self-worth and it's something that she has to work at. Likewise, setting her up for training with Kyouko is fine, because Kyouko is going to point out all the areas Sayaka needs work in, and challenge her to improve.

Giving her a Clear Seed is fine because we've already given Clear Seeds to others before, and we're planning on offering them out in larger numbers anyway. We also need people trying them out to serve as a trial run, so she--and everyone else we give them to, for now--are helping us out by using them.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that we want to stop using Clear Seeds. Haven't we already determined that, even amongst Clear Seeds, there are some that are docile and some that seem more malevolent? Just only circulate the malevolent ones. But even if that isn't the case, there's no moral difference between using a Grief Seed and using a Clear Seed. If anything, Clear Seeds are better because they are far, far easier to reuse/refresh (since you can use them MANY times, as opposed to just a handful of times). People we give them to are very unlikely to throw them away/give them to Kyubey, since they can just wait long enough until we stop by again and refresh it.

Besides, I'm not confident in our ability to create an enchanted object that allows us to reduce our powerset to an object any MG can use. If Sayaka can't even copy our power at all, then how likely is it that we can make an object that grants its user our power?
 
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