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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Hmm.

Rereading the last few updates, my conclusions:

• We promised Homura to contact her once we were done, and should generally work on maintaining her friendship anyway.

• Potentialbombing Homura cannot happen with Mami present (because it spills information about the loops, which is Homura's secret to share, not ours). Also, for obvious reasons, it must be kept private from QB.

• Mami's kind of fragile after the Kyouko thing, so going behind her back to talk to Homura doesn't make me happy. I think we should defer the potentialbomb to tommorow.

Thus, my completely revamped vote:

[x] Contact Homura. Tell her you're done with your conversation. Thank her again for generally keeping an eye on things, especially in this weather.
-[x] Ask Mami if she'd be alright with inviting Homura over. If (and only if) she is, extend Homura the invitation.

[x] Go home. Clear up whatever's left to clean up. Just relax a bit, and help Mami with her schoolwork. If the opportunity comes up, do some enchantment practice - try simple enchantments that fit your "theme", and work your way up from there.
 
Onmur said:
EDIT: When was the last time we checked on Hildegarde?
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Firnagzen said:
"Mine's been fine so far," you say, patting down your pockets. "Uh, Mami, do you mind?" She frees herself from your side, giving you room to root around the other half of your pockets and produce Hildegarde's Seed. You hold it out to Sayaka. "See?"

"Huh," Sayaka says, holding up her own, balanced on the tip of her finger. Where the Grief Seed she'd just claimed is obsidian black, Hildegarde is glassy clear. Absently, you check on Hildegarde.

Quiet, sleeping still.

Hm.
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While we were witch hunting with Sayaka, apparently
My google-fu has improved!
 
Perhaps the first step to making Sayaka start feeling less useless is to munchkin her power to the greatest extent possible.

It'll also, you know, make her not fucking... she's pretty unspectacular as-is.

The immediate problem of course is that she basically enters a fight power-less and has to fucking touch somebody to copy. Which, like, that's actually just terrible.

So we need a way to store at least one power. Powers have an upkeep.

We could tape a clear seed to her gem. That is, uh, not a great plan.

What we really want is some kind of vessel. Homura's magic is timestop; perhaps she could create some type of stasis effect. But more likely, I think, Sayaka's magic being power copying she should be able to enchant a vessel for a power herself.

Next, what one power would be best? Teleportation. Need to copy somebody? Teleport into range. Feel like having timestop utility in another city for a little while? Timestop, have Sayaka teleport Homu to place in question, do timestop things, teleport back. Need to cut down on the logistics of running a minor empire? Cough teleportation cough. Want Sayaka to feel useful? Make her fucking useful. Sakura sure as hell won't cooperate with us, but we should be able to bribe her for copies of her power.

Thoughts? Have her do proof of concept enchant with grief enhancer.

Examine whether she can copy enchants as powers?
 
Kaizuki said:
Perhaps the first step to making Sayaka start feeling less useless is to munchkin her power to the greatest extent possible.

It'll also, you know, make her not fucking... she's pretty unspectacular as-is.

The immediate problem of course is that she basically enters a fight power-less and has to fucking touch somebody to copy. Which, like, that's actually just terrible.

So we need a way to store at least one power. Powers have an upkeep.

We could tape a clear seed to her gem. That is, uh, not a great plan.

What we really want is some kind of vessel. Homura's magic is timestop; perhaps she could create some type of stasis effect. But more likely, I think, Sayaka's magic being power copying she should be able to enchant a vessel for a power herself.
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Think about how Sayaka would feel...

To start with, we should talk about all this with Sayaka. Actually, we could consult with Mami, say, while having dinner.

Hell, if we telepathy Sayaka and tell her what we think about Enchantment - that we're gonna start practicing it now, and the hint we got about how it's easier to do Enchantments related to your powers, maybe Sayaka can beat us to it.

Self-steem boost aside, depending on how a Power Copying Enchantment comes out, it might be all Sayaka needs. Let's say she herself can make an Enchantment that stores powers, to let other meguca -and herself- use afterwards.

That would be awesome. And Sayaka would feel awesome.
 
Kaizuki said:
Perhaps the first step to making Sayaka start feeling less useless is to munchkin her power to the greatest extent possible.

It'll also, you know, make her not fucking... she's pretty unspectacular as-is.

The immediate problem of course is that she basically enters a fight power-less and has to fucking touch somebody to copy. Which, like, that's actually just terrible.

So we need a way to store at least one power. Powers have an upkeep.

We could tape a clear seed to her gem. That is, uh, not a great plan.

What we really want is some kind of vessel. Homura's magic is timestop; perhaps she could create some type of stasis effect. But more likely, I think, Sayaka's magic being power copying she should be able to enchant a vessel for a power herself.

Next, what one power would be best? Teleportation. Need to copy somebody? Teleport into range. Feel like having timestop utility in another city for a little while? Timestop, have Sayaka teleport Homu to place in question, do timestop things, teleport back. Need to cut down on the logistics of running a minor empire? Cough teleportation cough. Want Sayaka to feel useful? Make her fucking useful. Sakura sure as hell won't cooperate with us, but we should be able to bribe her for copies of her power.

Thoughts? Have her do proof of concept enchant with grief enhancer.

Examine whether she can copy enchants as powers?
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I still want to do the grief lantern ring thing and Sayaka would be among my first choices on whom to give one to.
 
Kaizuki said:
Perhaps the first step to making Sayaka start feeling less useless is to munchkin her power to the greatest extent possible.

It'll also, you know, make her not fucking... she's pretty unspectacular as-is.

The immediate problem of course is that she basically enters a fight power-less and has to fucking touch somebody to copy. Which, like, that's actually just terrible.
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Wasn't Sayaka actually good in the mock fight against Homura and Mami? The only thing that there was criticism of were factors because of her inexperience. Also, unlike Sabrina or Homura, she really doesn't need to rely on her powers as much for her to be good in a fight. She has both melee and long-range options, as well as an option for defense. Her powers should never really be her primary go-to solution in a fight, and should be used as a secondary support to her while fighting. This is why her training with Kyouko, whose powers are mostly used as defense or binding enemies while her spear does all the damage, is a good thing.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Hmm.

Rereading the last few updates, my conclusions:

• We promised Homura to contact her once we were done, and should generally work on maintaining her friendship anyway.

• Potentialbombing Homura cannot happen with Mami present (because it spills information about the loops, which is Homura's secret to share, not ours). Also, for obvious reasons, it must be kept private from QB.

• Mami's kind of fragile after the Kyouko thing, so going behind her back to talk to Homura doesn't make me happy. I think we should defer the potentialbomb to tommorow.

Thus, my completely revamped vote:

[x] Contact Homura. Tell her you're done with your conversation. Thank her again for generally keeping an eye on things, especially in this weather.
-[x] Ask Mami if she'd be alright with inviting Homura over. If (and only if) she is, extend Homura the invitation.

[x] Go home. Clear up whatever's left to clean up. Just relax a bit, and help Mami with her schoolwork. If the opportunity comes up, do some enchantment practice - try simple enchantments that fit your "theme", and work your way up from there.
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I like this vote a lot better though I do think Homu needs a cleanse and perhaps some of her grief seeds refreshed.

I do think trying to finish our first basic enchant is more ideal before moving on to themes since we're already almost there.
 
[x] Contact Homura. Tell her you're done with your conversation. Thank her again for generally keeping an eye on things, especially in this weather.
-[x] Ask Mami if she'd be alright with inviting Homura over. If (and only if) she is, extend Homura the invitation.

[x] Go home. Clear up whatever's left to clean up. Just relax a bit. Give both Mami and Homura Clear Seeds, just in case you ever aren't available for whatever reason. Make note of the actual, precise capacity of a Clear Seed.
-[x] Discuss the implications of using Clear Seeds as bargaining chips during negotiations. It could be a very disruptive influence, if handled poorly.
--[x] Help Mami with her schoolwork. If the opportunity comes up, do some enchantment practice - try simple enchantments that fit your "theme", and work your way up from there.
 
TheEyes said:
A thousand times this. Homura isn't going to forgive Oriko for killing Madoka until she can forgive herself for killing Madoka. Until that happens, she'll never budge on Oriko.
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True, but we don't necessarily need to get Homura to the point of forgiving Oriko, just to the point of being able to tolerate Oriko.

Part of that, I think, will come from convincing Homura that a person in the current loop cannot be blamed for the actions of another version of that person in a past loop. While it is logical, knowing that a person has the potential for such action, to be wary of a repeat, one shouldn't ignore evidence that the potential no longer exists in the current version of that person. This is why Homura doesn't have a gun to Mami's head at all times, or why she doesn't panic whenever she's being touched by Mami's ribbons.

The other part is convincing Homura that we're taking proper precautions. Escorting Kirika and Oriko around (outside of their house) is one thing, but doing so while having, say, Kirika's soul gem in our pocket is another--and if we're with them, we know where they are at all times and are already in a position to instantly do something about whatever they might do. Kirika and Oriko wouldn't take offense so long as we explained to her that it was to reassure Homura.

Also, I don't think that we explained to Homura that Oriko has lost her powers--she can't see the future anymore. And yes, we verified this ourselves. While it's possible she might regain her power one day, it would be a gradual process and one that would require her to reach a much better place, mentally (which would make her much less likely to take extreme action).

For the short-term, we need to convince Homura that we're taking her fears seriously, and that we have no intention whatsoever of allowing this loop to be jeopardized through carelessness. Which means that we're taking a "trust, but verify" approach to Oriko and Kirika--treating them well and not like the extremist, remorseless killers like they were in that one loop, but nonetheless being prepared in case they somehow do become like that.
 
Redshirt Army said:
[x] Contact Homura. Tell her you're done with your conversation. Thank her again for generally keeping an eye on things, especially in this weather.
-[x] Ask Mami if she'd be alright with inviting Homura over. If (and only if) she is, extend Homura the invitation.

[x] Go home. Clear up whatever's left to clean up. Just relax a bit. Give both Mami and Homura Clear Seeds, just in case you ever aren't available for whatever reason. Make note of the actual, precise capacity of a Clear Seed.
-[x] Discuss the implications of using Clear Seeds as bargaining chips during negotiations. It could be a very disruptive influence, if handled poorly.
--[x] Help Mami with her schoolwork. If the opportunity comes up, do some enchantment practice - try simple enchantments that fit your "theme", and work your way up from there.
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Would badly overload us with grief. We already have way too much. We'd need to call coobs to get rid of it all.
 
[Q] Make a Grief Cloud and from now on go everywhere while flying on it.

 
We probably do need to call coobs soon. Which is when we should bring up to him the possibility of collaboration to make a system less harmful to humans and just-as or more efficient than the one he's using now. Given the Incubators use grief as a power source, they may have some method of containment we don't have access to, and they almost definitely understand it better than us on a theoretical level, which means their scientists would have a better idea of what sort of configuration the grief would have to be in to be more effective in their generators.

Kyuubey may be an amoral fuck, but he's not (purposefully) a immoral fuck. If we had a chance of making the system better for him, he'd be a staunch ally. Our only stipulation would be that it would have to improve the lives of Puella Magi as well, which isn't beyond the realm of possibility at all.
 
You know, at this point, it might not 'ruin' Mami's instincts if we keep Witch Stuff around, since she can tell the difference between Sabrina Grief and Other Witches' Grief.

So we can use excess Grief to make Maidbrina! :V

Mami deserves a Maidbrina.
 
Weren't we talking about doka and all sorts of stuff? And shoving Homu in a timestop with food? Idk

@Redshirt Army I'd like to, if possible, clear up everything that needs to be done with others before going home and then spend some time on Mami-related minor actions, there. For instance, some of the ideas for fixing the table could be pursued in simultaneity with homework + enchanting practice, and I'd like to make a direct gesture to her thanking her for her support today and/or highlighting how much we value her. I can write some of this stuff up but I have absolutely no clue, at this point, what all we want to see done before we end up Mami Brina at home.
 
Karnewarrior said:
We probably do need to call coobs soon. Which is when we should bring up to him the possibility of collaboration to make a system less harmful to humans and just-as or more efficient than the one he's using now. Given the Incubators use grief as a power source, they may have some method of containment we don't have access to, and they almost definitely understand it better than us on a theoretical level, which means their scientists would have a better idea of what sort of configuration the grief would have to be in to be more effective in their generators.

Kyuubey may be an amoral fuck, but he's not (purposefully) a immoral fuck. If we had a chance of making the system better for him, he'd be a staunch ally. Our only stipulation would be that it would have to improve the lives of Puella Magi as well, which isn't beyond the realm of possibility at all.
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Thank you for saying this. It needed to be said.

Also...anyone else think Firn might be leaning on our predictable aversion to Kyubey to keep us from finding solutions?
 
I deeply apologize for the multiple quotes but I'm doing catchup.

Muramasa said:
It's an interesting what if scenario but I don't consider HR canon.
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Sure but I think we can take for granted it's accurate for Homura's characterization. Also the Magica Quartet supervised it so it's probably canon-compliant as far as consistency goes even if it didn't actually happen.

Onmur said:
We need to get in contact with Yuma.

We must know everything.

Everything.
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Someone add "[] Ask Yuma to dish all the deets" to the vote or I won't support it.

The Narrator said:
The canonicity of Homura's Revenge is highly questionable. It appears in a publication that mostly contains non-canon omake. Not to mention that it implies that all Homura would have had to do to bring someone through the loops with her is be touching them when she activates her shield, in which case you'd think that she would have managed to make at least one ally in hundreds of loops that she'd want to bring with her.
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You're neglecting that Self-Sufficiency is Homura's critical flaw, to the point of self-destructiveness. People don't belive her, and their own fucking baggage keeps destroying them regardless. Who would be her ally? Mami? No, Tetris. Kyouko? No, she can't cope with Sayaka collapsing. Sayaka? PFFFFT NOOOOOO. Madoka? Pretty much no, but she's the only person she'd ever trust to know that she's a time-traveler, so...she might, in desperation, as she did in HR.

The Narrator said:
The problem raised by the premise of Homura's Revenge is that if it was possible for Homura to bring people with her, you'd think she'd have done so at some point, then been like, "Now that you know the future, you know that I was right about everything, so why not help me?" She could have kept bringing that person with her each time, then started bringing more and more people back until she had every meguca in Mitakihara working with her.
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By the time Homura decided to prevent Madoka's contracts, but the time Homura drops the braids and glasses, she's already totally lost faith in fucking everybody except sort of Kyouko, but not enough to tell her her secrets.

Kaizuki said:
Perhaps the first step to making Sayaka start feeling less useless is to munchkin her power to the greatest extent possible.

It'll also, you know, make her not fucking... she's pretty unspectacular as-is.

The immediate problem of course is that she basically enters a fight power-less and has to fucking touch somebody to copy. Which, like, that's actually just terrible.

So we need a way to store at least one power. Powers have an upkeep.

We could tape a clear seed to her gem. That is, uh, not a great plan.

What we really want is some kind of vessel. Homura's magic is timestop; perhaps she could create some type of stasis effect. But more likely, I think, Sayaka's magic being power copying she should be able to enchant a vessel for a power herself.

Next, what one power would be best? Teleportation. Need to copy somebody? Teleport into range. Feel like having timestop utility in another city for a little while? Timestop, have Sayaka teleport Homu to place in question, do timestop things, teleport back. Need to cut down on the logistics of running a minor empire? Cough teleportation cough. Want Sayaka to feel useful? Make her fucking useful. Sakura sure as hell won't cooperate with us, but we should be able to bribe her for copies of her power.

Thoughts? Have her do proof of concept enchant with grief enhancer.

Examine whether she can copy enchants as powers?
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Teleportation would be amazing. Additionally...if she copies powers, does she also copy the relative ease of enchantment with that powerset? Because if so, she should be pursuing an Artificer build because holy. shit.

Additionally I realize that if Kanna Hijiri is contracted we've already fail-stated preventing Asunaro's bullshit, but if that happens? Sayaka needs to gank her power set. Because jesus christ it's the most broken shit besides Sabrina and Homura.

so Kanna's magical weapon is strings. They can bind things Mami style and can act as puppeteer strings. Also she can use the powers of a Pleiade Saint after they die; the karmic connection has ontological inertia.
And she can combine all their powers to make new and unique effects, such as Evil Nuts (fake grief seeds which turn humans into Witches but can't cleanse).

She has 1) the power to turn parts of her body into metal, including a perfect invulnerability-for-immobility mode. 2) She can do anything related to 'rewriting', including rewriting memories, scanning enemies and objects, summon objects out of books, and create entire fucking barriers over goddamn cities where Kyubey cannot interact or even so much as be remembered by or observed by people, an invisible ghost with no ability to causally interact with it. Homura will WANT THIS. 3) Electric/thunder powers, including power over the electric signals of the body, allowing superspeed, super reaction speeds, SLOWING DOWN HER OWN FUCKING WITCH OUT... 4) The power of fire magic, plus the ability to summon and control bears. Mainly stuffed bears but it also works on animals and ANIMAL-SHAPED FAMILIARS. 5) The ability to talk to animal and also mind control people by shoving the ghost of her beloved cat into people. This one is um, eh. Sayaka isn't gonna mind control people and the cat-ghost isn't gonna obey her probably. Or maybe it will summon any loyal pet. Get Sayaka a pet. It'll die eventually. 6) THE ABILITY TO DECONSTRUCT AND REMATERIALIZE ANY MATTER ALA FMA ALCHEMY, INCLUDING FUNCTIONAL BODY CLONES OF PEOPLE. INCLUDES YUMA-LEVEL HEALING ABILITIES AND THE ABILITY TO PUT THINGS IN PERFECT STASIS, INCLUDING SOUL GEMS.
for the love of fuck Sayaka needs to copy Kanna Hijiri's powers and basically hold on to them.

Sorry for yelling like an insane person but basically if Sayaka had those powers she'd be our actual absolute best route for solving Dewitching, because that exact powerset would have succeeded if they had Sabrina's cleansing.

Additionally, we could try to copy Kazumi who also has all those powers and more, but she's A) A Witch and thus Sayaka might not be able to copy her, and B) Preventing Kazumi's existence is (sadly) part of our plans for going there.

Alternatively we could befriend Kanna Hijiri and share our own theories of Sabrina being an artificial person, and help her realize that her counterpart didn't make her for sick entertainment but so she can have the happiness she can't have herself anymore, and thus she cherishes her as her best parts personified.

Maybe THAT Kanna Hijiri would make the same wish to 'Connect', but with the intent of asserting her karmic connections with the Magical Girls who know what she is but acknowledge her humanity anyway.

And then we copy her sparkle-shinies onto our Sayaka.

Redshirt Army said:
[x] Contact Homura. Tell her you're done with your conversation. Thank her again for generally keeping an eye on things, especially in this weather.
-[x] Ask Mami if she'd be alright with inviting Homura over. If (and only if) she is, extend Homura the invitation.

[x] Go home. Clear up whatever's left to clean up. Just relax a bit. Give both Mami and Homura Clear Seeds, just in case you ever aren't available for whatever reason. Make note of the actual, precise capacity of a Clear Seed.
-[x] Discuss the implications of using Clear Seeds as bargaining chips during negotiations. It could be a very disruptive influence, if handled poorly.
--[x] Help Mami with her schoolwork. If the opportunity comes up, do some enchantment practice - try simple enchantments that fit your "theme", and work your way up from there.
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[] Ask Yuma to Dish Those Deets.

SaltyWaffles said:
True, but we don't necessarily need to get Homura to the point of forgiving Oriko, just to the point of being able to tolerate Oriko.

Part of that, I think, will come from convincing Homura that a person in the current loop cannot be blamed for the actions of another version of that person in a past loop. While it is logical, knowing that a person has the potential for such action, to be wary of a repeat, one shouldn't ignore evidence that the potential no longer exists in the current version of that person. This is why Homura doesn't have a gun to Mami's head at all times, or why she doesn't panic whenever she's being touched by Mami's ribbons.

The other part is convincing Homura that we're taking proper precautions. Escorting Kirika and Oriko around (outside of their house) is one thing, but doing so while having, say, Kirika's soul gem in our pocket is another--and if we're with them, we know where they are at all times and are already in a position to instantly do something about whatever they might do. Kirika and Oriko wouldn't take offense so long as we explained to her that it was to reassure Homura.

Also, I don't think that we explained to Homura that Oriko has lost her powers--she can't see the future anymore. And yes, we verified this ourselves. While it's possible she might regain her power one day, it would be a gradual process and one that would require her to reach a much better place, mentally (which would make her much less likely to take extreme action).

For the short-term, we need to convince Homura that we're taking her fears seriously, and that we have no intention whatsoever of allowing this loop to be jeopardized through carelessness. Which means that we're taking a "trust, but verify" approach to Oriko and Kirika--treating them well and not like the extremist, remorseless killers like they were in that one loop, but nonetheless being prepared in case they somehow do become like that.
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100% this. I'm also extremely invested in explaining Symmetry Diamond to Homura because god damn she needs to know that context.

Muramasa said:
Would badly overload us with grief. We already have way too much. We'd need to call coobs to get rid of it all.
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Is there honestly a problem with asking Kyubey to come take some grief? Just don't listen to shit he has to say. "Okay bye now. Shut up, bye."
 
AuraTwilight said:
Teleportation would be amazing. Additionally...if she copies powers, does she also copy the relative ease of enchantment with that powerset? Because if so, she should be pursuing an Artificer build because holy. shit.
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Kaizuki said:
The trick to a well-run expansion would be to determine what we can get from meguca, in exchange for what. The Mitakihara group is, again, incredibly rewarding from this perspective. Oriko and Homura both offer virtually anything we can ask for for probably no meaningful cost. Mami is capable of science, capable of enchantment, and quite frankly a terrifyingly capable fighter. Sayaka potentially lowers the cost barrier of getting things from other meguca -- if we only need them to let Sayaka copy their power, that's a moment of their time, why wouldn't they give us that when we gave them a clear seed? Kyouko eh, but if nothing else she has loose ethics.
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AuraTwilight said:
Is there honestly a problem with asking Kyubey to come take some grief? Just don't listen to shit he has to say. "Okay bye now. Shut up, bye."
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I see no issue. We don't need more than we have right?

AuraTwilight said:
100% this. I'm also extremely invested in explaining Symmetry Diamond to Homura because god damn she needs to know that context.
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Blah. Probably worthwhile. Timing?
 
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