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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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RagnorakTres said:
I'm pretty sure that's a ways down the Martial Arts tree. Like, you need Thousand Soothing Arms, Perfect Peace-Granting Mien, and Mandala of Infinite Serenity at least, and two of those require a Sidereal master...
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Ah, but we're an essence 4 Wish caste!

bird_poison said:
[x]Kaizuki

Good enough I guess. I still fail to see why should we apologize.
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"You don't have to believe you're in the wrong to apologize."
 
Kaizuki said:
"You don't have to believe you're in the wrong to apologize."
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That's lying, and it goes against my core principles. One good argument on why what we did is wrong, one good alternative option, that's all it takes to make me change opinion.

Until then, apologizing for doing good is a disrespect to oneself, the moral system one practizes and everyone who shares said morals.
 
bird_poison said:
That's lying, and it goes against my core principles. One good argument on why what we did is wrong, one good alternative option, that's all it takes to make me change opinion.

Until then, apologizing for doing good is a disrespect to oneself, the moral system one practizes and everyone who shares said morals.
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If nothing else I'm certainly sorry that our delivery of this was misphrased to the point that it drove Mami into a breakdown.
 
bird_poison said:
That's lying, and it goes against my core principles. One good argument on why what we did is wrong, one good alternative option, that's all it takes to make me change opinion.

Until then, apologizing for doing good is a disrespect to oneself, the moral system one practizes and everyone who shares said morals.
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Personally, I don't think we "did good". Did we make the wrong decision at all points? No. But did we handle this properly, in a way that would hurt Mami as little as possible? No, and that's what we owe her an apology for.

Edit: Technically I've already voted for Kaizuki since I voted for Redshirt, but for clarity's sake, and to reaffirm my support for the new vote:

[X] Kaizuki
 
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Julian Bradshaw said:
Personally, I don't think we "did good". Did we make the wrong decision at all points? No. But did we handle this properly, in a way that would hurt Mami as little as possible? No, and that's what we owe her an apology for.
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Good enough. If we could have done better and our lack of social didn't let us, thats reason enough to apologize in my book.
 
Shadowy whispers intensify.

[CONSPIRACY THREAD - REDACTED] said:
The exclusivity of the dank memes will only serve to artificially inflate their value. In this way, by controlling the flow of memes, we will attain supreme control over all PMMM quest threads.

It matters not who the supposed "quest master" is. A secret conspiracy is the real force behind the scenes.
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Redshirt Army said:
Shadowy whispers intensify.
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... Oh my god. That is hilarious. Holy shit. Oh the floor oh god. OH GOD LMFAO

Ahhhhhhhhhh.

I'm gonna go take a walk. I'll check in after, then probably go to the gym and check in after that again. Then... Idk. Grabbed a new mod pack for M&B I'll probably go die in that for a while.

Hats off to everyone who is/was involved in the last... twenty or so pages of PMAS. It was harsh.
 
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bird_poison said:
That's lying, and it goes against my core principles. One good argument on why what we did is wrong, one good alternative option, that's all it takes to make me change opinion.

Until then, apologizing for doing good is a disrespect to oneself, the moral system one practizes and everyone who shares said morals.
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I don't see it as a lie. The situation sucks and we wish it wasn't so, so we're sorry. Besides, we didn't handle things perfectly, so we did wrong and should apologise.
 
[X] Kaizuki

That's the result of about 28 hours and 10 pages of behind-the-scenes negotiations, and I think it'll get the job done.
 
bird_poison said:
Do not think because we don't do we don't listen. Most votes here are the aggregate of the ideas throw and flinched here, explicitly and implicitly. And an apreciated idea can be a discarded idea all the same.
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You don't understand the distinction between an idea that is intelligently considered and ultimately rejected (and reasoning for rejecting it is provided and explained), and an idea that is basically dismissed or ignored without intelligent consideration or much explanation.

Like recently: Kaizuki was the only one to even respond to my analysis/ideas at all, IIRC. He only addressed a chunk of one sentence of my post, made a criticism that was already addressed in the original post, and didn't make any significant changes to the vote. I made additional comments, further elaborating on my analysis and criticism with the current vote (which included a fairly simple change), but it was again ignored (unless it was responded to more recently and I just missed it?). While I can forgive Kaizuki not feeling up to adequately responding to my initial post because he was really damn tired last night, that doesn't really excuse doing the same thing the next day, nor does it excuse everyone else doing even less than that.

I would think I'd be given better consideration after I basically predicted that insane MG leader's actions during the "negotiations", then came up with the idea for the Mobile Oppression Fortress and the method with which to decisively win the fight without killing or maiming people, being viciously and personally attacked by a number of people in the thread extensively (with very few people even bothering to try and stand against the flaming and hypocrisy) for such "monstrous" and "stupid" ideas, only for things to go to shit exactly like I predicted they would and for the thread to turn around and do exactly what I proposed to do.

When I provide (relatively) detailed analysis--and my reasoning behind it--in good faith (particularly when responding to a vote, plan, or discussion), I don't think it's too much to ask that it be intelligently (as in, not lazily, tiredly, or dismissively) considered and responded to in some detail in return. Otherwise, there's just no point to me even participating or contributing.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
When I provide (relatively) detailed analysis--and my reasoning behind it--in good faith (particularly when responding to a vote, plan, or discussion), I don't think it's too much to ask that it be intelligently (as in, not lazily, tiredly, or dismissively) considered and responded to in some detail in return.
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So, you think your previous analysis entitles you to receive thoughful answers?

Sorry, but this is not how it works. Everyone can answer the points everyone deems fit to do, in the way they consider fit to do (within the rules).

You may think you deserve well-though analysis in your points, but in no way can you demand it be so.

Well... You can certainly demand it, but is anyone's choice to reply.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Like recently: Kaizuki was the only one to even respond to my analysis/ideas at all, IIRC.
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Both I and Sereg responded to your recent post but, as I see, not the original one:

SaltyWaffles said:
Guys, I want to reiterate that what Mami needs right now is reassurance that her relationship with Sabrina is, and always has been, genuine.

What she's afraid of is a repeat of Kyubey--that is, that Sabrina was just using her all along and was never actually her friend. She isn't afraid of Sabrina keeping secrets so long as they don't undermine the relationship's authenticity.

So: start off by assuring her that we've cared about her from the start, and that our feelings for her, our friendship with her, has always been real and true. The only thing we faked was ignorance about certain subjects--our affection for her, our trust in her, our gestures towards her have always been real.

That is what needs to be driven home more than anything, and before anything else.
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I think the vote does get to the point of genuinely caring about Mami as quickly as is possible after actually answering her question. It doesn't explicitly say "always" or "from the beginning" though.

A possible inclusion:

[] I didn't tell you because I was scared, and wasn't sure what to do and I... I just couldn't find a way to say it. At first, I was just trying to keep this away from Kyuubey, but after it was gone... you were so hurt that I couldn't bear to put you through that again. You've always been my friend, and by then you meant so much to me, Mami, that I was afraid to tell you.

Edit, alternative line: You've always been my friend, and you mean so much to me, Mami.

Current last line is "Even by then, you already meant so much to me, Mami."

More edits: The new line might too blatantly contradict our "I didn't know we could be friends." from last update, even if it was effectively untrue. (I think we meant something more like "I didn't know you would become my closest friend.") Perhaps it is better to stick with the "You've grown to be my closest friend." emphasis, and when Mami eventually asks/there's an opportunity explain we better explain what we thought in the beginning.

(Also I've edited this a bunch more times for clarity etc.)

Relevant section of lichbomb:
Firnagzen said:
"You." White hot anger seethes in your voice and courses in your veins, and Mami flinches in your embrace. "Mami deserves to know the truth, you emotionless, deceptive little abomination. You used Mami all this time. You pretended to be her friend, and you've strung her along for years."

You can feel Mami wilt, every word almost a physical blow hammering down on her... And the only thing you can do is hold her, reassuring her that you're still here. She struggles weakly in your hug, and you loosen it a little, allowing her to half turn to look at the Incubator.

"Y-you're n-n-not denying i-i-it," Mami says, in an alien, raspy croak so unlike her usual gentle tones you only realize it's her by the movement of her jaw.

"No," Kyuubey agrees, jumping down from the window sill and slinking along the floor, prowling around you. "I would not deny the truth."

"T-the truth-!" Mami chokes out, burying her face in your shoulder as her sobbing begins anew.
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SaltyWaffles said:
You don't understand the distinction between an idea that is intelligently considered and ultimately rejected (and reasoning for rejecting it is provided and explained), and an idea that is basically dismissed or ignored without intelligent consideration or much explanation.

Like recently: Kaizuki was the only one to even respond to my analysis/ideas at all, IIRC. He only addressed a chunk of one sentence of my post, made a criticism that was already addressed in the original post, and didn't make any significant changes to the vote. I made additional comments, further elaborating on my analysis and criticism with the current vote (which included a fairly simple change), but it was again ignored (unless it was responded to more recently and I just missed it?). While I can forgive Kaizuki not feeling up to adequately responding to my initial post because he was really damn tired last night, that doesn't really excuse doing the same thing the next day, nor does it excuse everyone else doing even less than that.

I would think I'd be given better consideration after I basically predicted that insane MG leader's actions during the "negotiations", then came up with the idea for the Mobile Oppression Fortress and the method with which to decisively win the fight without killing or maiming people, being viciously and personally attacked by a number of people in the thread extensively (with very few people even bothering to try and stand against the flaming and hypocrisy) for such "monstrous" and "stupid" ideas, only for things to go to shit exactly like I predicted they would and for the thread to turn around and do exactly what I proposed to do.

When I provide (relatively) detailed analysis--and my reasoning behind it--in good faith (particularly when responding to a vote, plan, or discussion), I don't think it's too much to ask that it be intelligently (as in, not lazily, tiredly, or dismissively) considered and responded to in some detail in return. Otherwise, there's just no point to me even participating or contributing.
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I...

I believe that a lot of this is a misinterpretation of other motives as malice.

I feel that you probably have been done a wrong.

And I am apologetic that I haven't paid as much attention to the thread as could be justified.

However, while I simply cannot speak for others, I will say that I've had what I believe to be some pretty good reasons for focusing away from the thread lately.

First and foremost, and really the best and most relevant that I can give you, I found that I had trouble thinking clearly and staying focused when I kept being diverted by desire to respond to the coments of whoever just posted in the thread. That was a huge problem, because I had a lot of votes behind me, some of them from people who I don't think have posted here since they voted for my original vote (despite my tagging them when I shifted stance significantly). At the point when I realized that consistently and actively responding to everyone in the thread was compromising my focus, I cut back on that significantly, and I've probably missed some material that I should have read as a result of that.

But given that every major insight I've had has occurred during periods of time when I haven't been actively looking at the thread... I don't know.
 
Ugo brought up a counterpoint to the proposed edit, which was that it directly contradicts a certain thing we said in the last post.

Now, everyone in the thread can agree on this: FUCK that thing we said.

But. Contradicting ourselves is...

Think about it for a bit. It's just not... The way I want to deal with that fuckup is to get to a stage where we can literally go, "I didn't mean it like that, Mami! I'm not good at social T_T." Contradicting ourselves in this time and place, on the other hand, carries a large amount of potential risk. It tarnishes our trust-armor, so to speak.

And it doesn't carry a significant benefit in exchange -- not one that can't be created later in a more stable manner.

That's my thoughts.
 
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