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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Agent Whiskers said:
We can disable their powers and abilities with grief. I'm pretty sure that they need to have their soul gems on them in order to actually transform. Willingness to kill or no, Sabrina can reduce their bodies to chunks of meat and bone very quickly with her grief bending. We would be watching them like a hawk. A single thought to Homura, and they'll be stuck in timestop. Heck, we can even bring the hyper-competent Mumi to watch over them with us. We would control where exactly we would be taking them. Etc.

Meanwhile alone at home without supervision, they can easily subvert the house arrest with preparation, intelligence, and pre-cog.

Homura's fears of them pulling something with Sabrina out with them is basically irrational, imo. Which I thought was kind of the point.
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I would dispute about half those counter measures. We can't really use raw grief to disable O and K's powerset. Active grief is plausible but too slow given the situation. Weather or not O and K can transform without their gems is untested. Technically they are their gems and their bodies would be in range so I don't see why they can't transform. Our own grief bending is vulnerable to Kirika's antimagic. If we have enough of it in the air, it could very well be hundreds of basketball sized grief orbs falling on everyone.

However I do agree the moment we call Homura, it's an instant win. And the end result would probably amount to a dead Oriko and Kirika. So... of course as has been mentioned the real problem is convincing Homura of this.
 
On the "Homura and Oriko" question:

Firnagzen said:
"Ugh," you grunt at the nonsequitur. "Why are you stalling? You asked to speak to me alone, and here we are! Why are you doing this?"

The ghost of a smile flits across her face. "Waiting for the right question. 'Why?' I could not work with you. Not if you are to work with Akemi Homura."
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Firnagzen said:
"Because you working with Akemi Homura can change the course of destiny," Oriko says.
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Oriko is going to be very against us doing anything that might endanger Sabrina's relationship with Homura. If we ask about it, I suspect she'll tell us she's seen the future and there's no way for us to end the house arrest before she dies. I'm all but certain she'd be right, too, as long as Oriko doesn't make some serious changes to her outlook on life.
 
I'm completely serious about writing shit down for Oriko. Somebody weigh in on the matter and let me know I'm not talking to a wall about this.

Fact 1: Oriko's magic is twisting in on itself
Fact 2: Oriko's magic is becoming less effective
Fact 3: Magic can be lost upon rejection of a wish

Premise 1: Facts 1 & 2
Premise 2: Fact 3
Conclusion: Oriko is rejecting her wish (confirmed by QB)


How is Oriko supposed to argue against a strong deductive(or is this inductive?) argument like that?

With this laid out, we can move on to

Fact 4: Oriko is rejecting her wish
Fact 5: Oriko wished to find the meaning of her life

Conclusion: Oriko hasn't found, or is actively rejecting the meaning of her life.


And so the list goes on. Oriko will either have to accept the logic we're basing this entire conversation on, or she'll shed light on where, exactly, she disagrees with us. We can then provide further evidence if available, logical arguments of evidence is not available, or we can in turn be made aware of an error in out logic and update our strategy from there, having learned something.

Spelling this out, calmly, on paper (or some grief-made equivalent) will help keep the conversation on point and progressing.

@Ugolino if you think we should stay with her in the room, we could create the list in front of her, or even with her input. That way we won't create 10 arguments only to get stuck on the 4th, with the other 6 ignored.
 
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Onmur said:
.
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I haven't written the entire list. That's just a starting point so we can move on with a solid foundation.

redzonejoe said:
And so the list goes on.
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Edit: ideally, assuming I'm not the only person in this thread who thinks that writing things down can help organize your thoughts, others would pitch in and help make the list.

Alternatively we leave the actual list vague and implied instead of writing it all out, and see it referred to in-story without actually creating a page of real text.
 
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Ugolino said:
Yeah, no, we can't treat Oriko like a logic problem either.
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We're not treating her like a logic problem, we'd be trying to outline and address the actual (magical) medical problem.

Can you imagine if doctors tried curing disease with emotional appeal?

Edit: once we have the facts down and agreed upon, that's when we start in on hypothetical treatments. Those can be as emotional or illogical as necessary, as long as we're all on the same page to start with.
 
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redzonejoe said:
Can you imagine if doctors tried curing disease with emotional appeal?
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This is poorly worded, considering we might actually have to cure Oriko with emotional appeal.

To clarify, we're trying to identify the disease, then we'd propose potential treatments, one of which is 'emotional appeal'. If doctors tried to cure all diseases with emotional appeal, and completely ignored the part where they use knowledge to identify what the disease is... That's when we'd have a problem.

Actually the whole analogy is fucked, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here? First we figure shit out, then we make sure Oriko agrees with our assessment. After that, we can figure out how to treat it. If Oriko still objects at this point, the objections fall flat.

Edit: we're currently trying to propose a treatment, and Oriko is saying "No, that's ridiculous, it won't work."

This logical outline would be something we could point to and say "Yes it will."
 
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Muramasa said:
We can't really use raw grief to disable O and K's powerset. Active grief is plausible but too slow given the situation.
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Make grief bracelets that de-power them before the trip. Put them on them before setting off. Done.

Weather or not O and K can transform without their gems is untested. Technically they are their gems and their bodies would be in range so I don't see why they can't transform.
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Maybe. They apparently didn't even know about pain suppression until we told them, so who knows. And in their transformed state, soul gems seem to actually be attached to the girl, which is why I made that assumption. Might be wrong.

Our own grief bending is vulnerable to Kirika's antimagic. If we have enough of it in the air, it could very well be hundreds of basketball sized grief orbs falling on everyone.
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For that latter, we could probably figure something out. Maybe mess around with how we carry them or the composition For the former, it only works temporarily. Remember how we won last time? Well we have a lot more grief and even more skill to use it. They would get shredded. Plus, we might have Mami for backup. And the de-power bracelet.

However I do agree the moment we call Homura, it's an instant win. And the end result would probably amount to a dead Oriko and Kirika. So... of course as has been mentioned the real problem is convincing Homura of this.
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I'm not so sure if Homura would immediately kill them. And, tbh, if Oriko and Kirika stab us in back like that then I wouldn't have that much of an issue with them possibly getting killed by Homura. But that's just me.

There are definite problems and uncertainties. But with all of this combined with other stuff, logically Homura should be able to trust Sabrina to handle them. Except she doesn't. Because a large part of this isn't about logic. Plus, trauma.

Actually, does Homura even know that we can pull some of this stuff off? I don't really remember.
 
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redzonejoe said:
This is poorly worded, considering we might actually have to cure Oriko with emotional appeal.

To clarify, we're trying to identify the disease, then we'd propose potential treatments, one of which is 'emotional appeal'. If doctors tried to cure all diseases with emotional appeal, and completely ignored the part where they use knowledge to identify what the disease is... That's when we'd have a problem.

Actually the whole analogy is fucked, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here? First we figure shit out, then we make sure Oriko agrees with our assessment. After that, we can figure out how to treat it. If Oriko still objects at this point, the objections fall flat.

Edit: we're currently trying to propose a treatment, and Oriko is saying "No, that's ridiculous, it won't work."

This logical outline would be something we could point to and say "Yes it will."
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Wasn't that essentially what was said?
Make a list and then potentially construct plans/etc?
 
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Slith10 said:
Wasn't that essentially what was said?
Make a list and then potentially construct plans/etc?
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Yes. By me.

If somebody other than me said it, feel free to direct me to it so I can give him/her a digital high-five.

Well, I'm for making Sabrina make a list, which could be different from somebody suggesting the forum makes a list, if that's what you meant.
 
Beyogi said:
Whatever quintuple down on something that obviously doesn't work. Do you intend to keep this going until the GM gives up and gives you what you want?
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I intend to not just give up the moment something happens that doesn't follow our script...and Kirika's reaction is a great big neon sign saying DON'T GIVE UP AT THE FIRST SIGN OF A SOCIAL PROBLEM AND RUN AWAY FROM ORIKO.

But hey, I'm sure running away would magically fix Oriko and make everything better. :V
 
Agent Whiskers said:
Or we could just not do long monologues. It would slow down the updates a bit, but that's probably preferable to screwing up.
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I'm willing to do more rapidfire updates, for short exchanges, if that's what the thread wants.
Muramasa said:
Nah. Just pulling your leg. I like cats too.
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Ugolino said:
:confused:

Had me going there for a moment.
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Someone's sleeping on the couch tonight.
Ugolino said:
I intend to not just give up the moment something happens that doesn't follow our script...and Kirika's reaction is a great big neon sign saying DON'T GIVE UP AT THE FIRST SIGN OF A SOCIAL PROBLEM AND RUN AWAY FROM ORIKO.

But hey, I'm sure running away would magically fix Oriko and make everything better. :V
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@Ugolino Stop strawmanning your opponents' positions.
 
Oh, I have a game plan! We write down-

"It's too logical, no."

Alright well I'll be back later with some other note or suggestion that gets discarded without reason. See you all then!
 
Idea [WARNING IDEA POSTED EARLY AND BEFORE COFFEE]- Tell Oriko that we don't know what to do. We are trying to help and we don't, can't give up on her. We're magical girls are lives to a degree are the definition of SUCK - it goes against again our grain to just leave her there like this. But we just don't know what to do.
 
DB_Explorer said:
Idea [WARNING IDEA POSTED EARLY AND BEFORE COFFEE]- Tell Oriko that we don't know what to do. We are trying to help and we don't, can't give up on her. We're magical girls are lives to a degree are the definition of SUCK - it goes against again our grain to just leave her there like this. But we just don't know what to do.
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Telling her that we're lost isn't going to convince her that she's wrong though since she's clinging to the idea that she IS right.
 
Firnagzen said:
I'm willing to do more rapidfire updates, for short exchanges, if that's what the thread wants.
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What if we naturally write short votes whenever we want shorter updates?

Vote Tally : Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 3368 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.5.11

[x] Right, let's take a break. Everyone needs to cool off. Cleansing.
[x] Telepathy Kirika. It's going to be okay. I'm not going to leave it at this. For now just be with your Ojou alright?
[x] Back to your blue coat. Dismiss the maid outfit.
[x] Go outside to the yard. Sit down. Take a breather.
-[x] Check the time.
-[x] Telepathy Mami. Have a chat. Ask her how her test went.
No. of Votes: 7
Muramasa
AuraTwilight
DB_Explorer
EtchedSteel
FelOnyx
Loktarogar
Ugolino

[X] Everyone needs to cool off. Cleansing.
-[X] Dismiss the maid outfit, it doesn't help anything and might be distracting / disruptive
[X] Take Kirika aside (either physically, or talking by telepathy), and explain what you want to get through to Oriko.
-[X] Be blunt and direct about what you think is important for both her and Oriko to know.
-[X] Start with what you want Oriko to understand.
-[X] Ask Kirika if getting Mami or anyone else involved in this intervention would help.
No. of Votes: 2
Zarohk
Skelm

[X] Cleanse Oriko.
[X] Tell Oriko to wait on that for a bit.
[X] Talk to Kirika.
-[X] As far as you see it, this has much to do with her as with Oriko. So if there's anything else that she wants to say about all this, now is the time.
[X] Just sit and listen.
No. of Votes: 2
Agent Whiskers
cmwatford

[X] If Kirika doesn't want me to go then I won't go. But I'll sit quietly in the corner until you're feeling a bit less tense.
No. of Votes: 1
apeljohn

[x] "I'm kirika's best buddy, not yours. If she doesn't want me to go, I ain't going."
-[x] Clean everybody's soul gems.
No. of Votes: 1
Aranfan

[X] Punch Oriko's stupid face.
No. of Votes: 1
NavySeel

[X] Apologize. You've been stepping out of line.
-[X] Dismiss the Maid Outfit.
[X] You'd rather not leave on this note. If you could stay a while, just to hang out? You'd like to chat with Kirika at least.
-[X] If yes: You don't actually know each other very well, so... what's Kirika's favourite food? Movie? Book? Chat about inane stuff like that.
-[X] If no: Say one more thing before leaving: Oriko is changing, for the better. You believe her Wish might have helped her get this far, but no further; the meaning her Wish gave her was for the Oriko of eleven days ago, not the one of today, the one who's trying to do things the right way.
No. of Votes: 1
Onmur

[x] Let Kirika take the lead. Encourage her if you have to.
[x] Assist her in any way that you can.
No. of Votes: 1
UbeOne

Total No. of Voters: 16
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