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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Muramasa said:
...The problem here is that Homura doesn't trust us to follow through with any actual 'smashing' of gems. Even if we're the ones holding them. Homura doesn't believe we can bring ourselves to kill, at least not before Oriko and Kirika theoretically overtake us. Whatever threat there is to holding their gems isn't satisfactory to her.

We need more then that or we need to somehow convince Homura that holding O and K's gems is enough. And as it is, you're right in that I don't hold much stock in the latter. Nor am I all that thrilled at the implications of convincing Homura we can kill under the right circumstances.
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We can disable their powers and abilities with grief. I'm pretty sure that they need to have their soul gems on them in order to actually transform. Willingness to kill or no, Sabrina can reduce their bodies to chunks of meat and bone very quickly with her grief bending. We would be watching them like a hawk. A single thought to Homura, and they'll be stuck in timestop. Heck, we can even bring the hyper-competent Mumi to watch over them with us. We would control where exactly we would be taking them. Etc.

Meanwhile alone at home without supervision, they can easily subvert the house arrest with preparation, intelligence, and pre-cog.

Homura's fears of them pulling something with Sabrina out with them is basically irrational, imo. Which I thought was kind of the point.
 
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Agent Whiskers said:
We can disable their powers and abilities with grief. I'm pretty sure that they need to have their soul gems on them in order to actually transform. Willingness to kill or no, Sabrina can reduce their bodies to chunks of meat and bone very quickly with her grief bending. We would be watching them like a hawk. A single thought to Homura, and they'll be stuck in timestop. Heck, we can even bring the hyper-competent Mumi to watch over them with us.

Meanwhile alone at home without supervision, they can easily subvert the house arrest with preparation, intelligence, and pre-cog.

Homura's fears of them pulling something with Sabrina out with them is basically irrational, imo. Which I thought was kind of the point.
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Well, yeah, Homura isn't being rational so much as "Oriko and Kirika are a threat and I don't want to think about them being free no matter what the evidence says".
 
[X] Everyone needs to cool off. Cleansing.
-[X] Dismiss the maid outfit, it doesn't help anything and might be distracting / disruptive
[X] Take Kirika aside (either physically, or talking by telepathy), and explain what you want to get through to Oriko.
-[X] Be blunt and direct about what you think is important for both her and Oriko to know.
-[X] Start with what you want Oriko to understand.
-[X] Ask Kirika if getting Mami or anyone else involved in this intervention would help.
 
Well, it seems to me that everything went wrong when post 11 came through and Oriko sidetracked the discussion from "you're misinterpreting your wish" to "my visions are right" "no they aren't, necessarily" "yes they are."

Then we brought up other Oriko, and because our Oriko was fixated on the yes/no thing and we tried to show her other oriko to fix her, she assumed we were just being an asshole (not exactly, but point).

I don't think we've actually conveyed the problem to her; that she's resisting her wish trying to fulfil itself. I don't know why we decided we had to skirt around this issue -- we could easily have "meaning-of-life-bombed" her and left her to sort out whether she agreed; we could even have just said "Oriko, the problem is that you're resisting your wish trying to fulfil itself. We both know the exact wording of your wish. Logically, what does that imply?"

We literally have empirical evidence we can give her ("I do not lie" -- Kyuubey) that should break the keel of her current view. This has nothing to do with her death. She doesn't care about her death, not in terms of personal consequences. But I think she'd agree that it would be stupid to die without first having figured out the meaning of her life.

So... Why the hell are we fooling around?

Whatever we do, we'd ought to either lead off with "we've gotten sidetracked" or by agreeing to leave with some set of preconditions. Because, frankly, we've gotten sidetracked.
 
Kaizuki said:
Well, it seems to me that everything went wrong when post 11 came through and Oriko sidetracked the discussion from "you're misinterpreting your wish" to "my visions are right" "no they aren't, necessarily" "yes they are."

Then we brought up other Oriko, and because our Oriko was fixated on the yes/no thing and we tried to show her other oriko to fix her, she assumed we were just being an asshole (not exactly, but point).

I don't think we've actually conveyed the problem to her; that she's resisting her wish trying to fulfil itself. I don't know why we decided we had to skirt around this issue -- we could easily have "meaning-of-life-bombed" her and left her to sort out whether she agreed; we could even have just said "Oriko, the problem is that you're resisting your wish trying to fulfil itself. We both know the exact wording of your wish. Logically, what does that imply?"

We literally have empirical evidence we can give her ("I do not lie" -- Kyuubey) that should break the keel of her current view. This has nothing to do with her death. She doesn't care about her death, not in terms of personal consequences. But I think she'd agree that it would be stupid to die without first having figured out the meaning of her life.

So... Why the hell are we fooling around?

Whatever we do, we'd ought to either lead off with "we've gotten sidetracked" or by agreeing to leave with some set of preconditions. Because, frankly, we've gotten sidetracked.
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We kind of phoned it in but we did try and do that a few posts back.

I will agree we've gotten sidetracked though.
 
I hope the progress we've made (Oriko wants to live/Oriko accepts she might've been wrong about her life meaning) is enough.

Now Oriko will have time to think about things.

Hopefully will be a little more open to not killing herself next time.

cmwatford said:
Should we ask Oriko what happens if we rock her and keep her safe for the next few weeks?
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O&K could literally leave the city and avoid all the shit that's about to go down and survive.

But they don't because that's an option that's 'not' an option.

Or a choice that isn't. Oriko said something like this when we first interrogated her.

So, presumably, were we to rock them and drop them in Alaska, then either:

- They'll live (in Alaska).
- Something completely out of left field will blindside us and stop us (Feathers? Madokami? Hitomi? Tatsuya???).

Shit, I think Tatsuya is Feathers.
 
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Ugolino said:
We kind of phoned it in but we did try and do that a few posts back.

I will agree we've gotten sidetracked though.
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Yeah, we tried it in post 10 and Oriko misinterpreted it completely, took it as another instance of our insisting her visions are wrong. From there we got three posts of our hero complex kicking in and instigating an argument about the visions even as we sort-of tried to avoid that. So we tried, yes, but not hard enough given that she didn't correctly understand what we said.
 
I've got an idea.

Have Sabrina and Oriko separate, calm down and whatnot, as we plan to do.

However, while Kirika and Oriko talk, instead of our current vote, we can use this time productively... By making a list.

When arguing in person, things become heated. People interrupt, points become derailed, information is ignored or glossed over...

By making a neat and orderly list of thing things we know, the things we suspect, and the conclusions we've drawn, we can circumvent many of those issues.

We then present the list to Oriko and tell her 'This is what we think and why we think it. Please read it and point out which parts of it you disagree with, so we can get to the heart of the matter'
 
Guys.

Kirika's reaction is a pretty good indicator that running off would be a BAD idea right now. We shouldn't leave it at this because of the setback- we need to do damage control.
 
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