I'm not really feeling the votes, so I'm trying to craft one myself. Problem is I'm literally falling asleep.

[X] Turning 'them' away could come down to a continuous battle. You're expecting many desperate newcomers who won't take 'no' for an answer...
[X] Sigh.
[X] But if you're being entirely honest, you've been expecting this from the start. You'd like it if you could set up a meeting place of sorts for Magical Girls, somewhere close to Mitakihara, where you could reach out and lift the weight of Grief off their shoulders.
[X] It's not Grief cleansing that's the problem; you can support any amount of Magical Girls there. The problem is the people. Dangerous people. Problematic people.
[X] You're really hoping to change how things work someday; there's a distrust, a hostility between Magical Girls, that needs to... end. And you've got a part of the solution to that.
[X] It's just that everything's happening too fast.

[X] Apologize, you're ruining their lunch break, aren't you?
[X] Actually, you'd like to talk with Madoka for a moment.
-[X] Tell Madoka about Ono. How every meeting you had with her was... abrupt, how you had to practically stomp on Ono's feelings in order to protect her life, and she's... very much someone who'd rather risk life than ego... Now you've pretty much pissed her off to the point she wants nothing to do with you; you're even going to ask favors to other Magical Girls to see if you can find anybody who'll help Ono not get killed in her first days as a Magical Girl.
-[X] So you messed up, and it had nothing to do with having more or better magical powers, but more about how you choose to deal with somebody as a person.
-[X] You're not expecting miracles, but does she think you could make amends? You really want to make sure Ono doesn't end up killing herself, but you don't know how to do that from your position.
Eh. Doesn't really have a nice talk with Madoka. She's worried and feeling left out. She needs a little speech right now. Also, let's start small. Have her help her friends out before we ask her to deal with a hostile meguca.

Also the continuous battle thing doesn't hold water. Sabrina and Homura combined are going to be pretty hard to attack when you can't literally see the future. And that's not even taking Mami into account.
 
Avoiding falsehoods (lying is the prime example of a violation of the categorical imperative) and extending the lifespan of the universe (as long as all the maxims acted upon were ok) are both things that Kantian morality would approve of.
Heh, just occurred to me that if you twist Kant badly enough you can totally use him to justify the witch system. Universalizability? Why yes, Kyubey can totally universally meguca-fy potentials without contradicting his goals. Heck, that is his goal. Treat people as an end, and never as a means only? That of course is where the wish comes in. He's giving them the chance to get whatever they most desire.
 
Do you really think that there are hotels that don't require booking to rent out the entire place.
Fine, then we just set them up in a warehouse with some mattresses. We're giving them free housing it doesn't have to be a palace. Also, do you really thing we'll be getting that many at once? I really don't think gradually saving the world is the point of the quest, given the super powerful thing we don't even understand that we still have to fight. Let's focus on us and ours and save everything from that before we try to also become a worldwide meguca government.
 
other rational beings
I'm almost certain Kyuubey would not describe humans that way.
and that they underestimate humans
"Having not only read the work in question but influenced its initial popularity, I can say with near-certainty that I am not underestimating the species that produced it."

More seriously, humans having weird moral systems does not make us better.
Heh, just occurred to me that if you twist Kant badly enough you can totally use him to justify the witch system. Universalizability? Why yes, Kyubey can totally universally meguca-fy potentials without contradicting his goals. Heck, that is his goal. Treat people as an end, and never as a means only? That of course is where the wish comes in. He's giving them the chance to get whatever they most desire.

Fine, then we just set them up in a warehouse with some mattresses. We're giving them free housing it doesn't have to be a palace. Also, do you really thing we'll be getting that many at once? I really don't think gradually saving the world is the point of the quest, given the super powerful thing we don't even understand that we still have to fight. Let's focus on us and ours and save everything from that before we try to also become a worldwide meguca government.
We're just talking about helping the people that come to us here. Consider it "gathering allies" if you must have a monomaniacal focus on something we don't have the first idea how to prepare for. Worldwide meguca government doesn't enter into it, just Mitakihara meguca government.
 
We're just talking about helping the people that come to us here. Consider it "gathering allies" if you must have a monomaniacal focus on something we don't have the first idea how to prepare for. Worldwide meguca government doesn't enter into it, just Mitakihara meguca government.
Yeah, but we don't need to devote precious time and patience to little details. We can house them if they show up. Screw the real estate side quest.

Edit: Even aside from feathers, we have so much shit to do without playing with red tape too. Screw that. I'm not taking time away from any friend to buy a house we may or may not have any use for at all.
We really disagree on what the point f the quest is.
We really really do. We have to save the main characters if at all possible (those Sabrina loves) and fight the superpowerful thing that's coming for us.

Look, let me put it this way. I think that in the course of the quest and fucking up this thing, whatever it is, we will be given a chance to fuck up the incubators or at least make things better. If we're not, we still need to focus on us and ours, because I'm sorry, but I just cannot reconcile utilitarian ethics. Life, even a short life, can have good things, and that makes it worthwhile. We save those close to us, get stable, and then branch out. We can't help anyone if we get overwhelmed.
 
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Gotta agree with Madoka Gadjo on several levels here.

On a practical level, overreach is a real danger, and our friends are our only real supporting agents in our effort to save the world. If things with them fall apart, we've lost very important assets.

On a personal level, Sabrina isn't a fucking robot, she cares about her friends.
 
IMO, we can invest some heavy thinking on the long-term/macroscale issues once we've:
  • Gone past May 1 (aka. Wattaburgernight)
  • Found a decisive solution to the witchbomb (not necessarily de-witching)
  • Sufficiently impressed to Madoka that: Contract=horribad
 
Yeah, but we don't need to devote precious time and patience to little details. We can house them if they show up. Screw the real estate side quest.

Edit: Even aside from feathers, we have so much shit to do without playing with red tape too. Screw that. I'm not taking time away from any friend to buy a house we may or may not have any use for at all.
Then we shouldn't do it. No matter which approach we use, there will be headaches and red tape, unless we dump it in someone else's lap. Get Madoka to (get someone to get someone to) figure out the details, throw huge quantities of money at them if, as and when it becomes necessary; done, no longer our problem, we can pretty much forget about it.

If we don't, we need to do something else. The alternatives so far are to -
- send them to Oriko's, and
-- have to deal with yet more of Homura's bullshit,
- send them to a hotel, and
-- pay inordinate amounts of money, on an ongoing basis, for something that'll raise lots of questions and make life difficult for them, or
- send them to some semi-converted warehouse, and
-- immediately screw up the first impression and all subsequent impressions, plus completely predictable issues arising from having them holed up somewhere with inadequate amenities.
 
-- have to deal with yet more of Homura's bullshit,
Clarification on this?

And I get the impression that Oriko's mansion is far enough away from Madoka's that Homura's okay with it acting as their 'prison', and not somewhere even farther. So long as the immigrants stay the fuck away from mitakihara high and to where Madoka lives, I think homura's okay with that arrangement.

- send them to a hotel, and
-- pay inordinate amounts of money, on an ongoing basis, for something that'll raise lots of questions
Doesn't need to be a hotel. We could find a few dormitories for girls (which are way cheaper than hotels yet should be adequate enough), and say they're there for cram school for the entrance exam to Mitakihara University or something.
- send them to some semi-converted warehouse, and
-- immediately screw up the first impression and all subsequent impressions, plus completely predictable issues arising from having them holed up somewhere with inadequate amenities.
Semi-converted warehouse >>>>>> living in the streets. And they're coming here mainly for the free cleansing, not for a vacation and expecting first-class treatment.

And IMO, all these are just temporary arrangements, until we a.) Develop artificial grief seeds/remote cleansing b.) Resolve enough of the urgent and important issues in our plate right now, so we can then have the time to deal with the housing issue.

And frankly, I think it's a bad investment to make something permanent right now, when we fully expect a city-buster witch to invade us in three weeks. And no, one-shotting Waluiginight is not a sure thing, so we have to expect extensive property damage to happen.
 
Clarification on this?

And I get the impression that Oriko's mansion is far enough away from Madoka's that Homura's okay with it acting as their 'prison', and not somewhere even farther. So long as the immigrants stay the fuck away from mitakihara high and to where Madoka lives, I think homura's okay with that arrangement.

Homura's made it clear she'd rather people didn't know about Oriko's power.
 
And I get the impression that Oriko's mansion is far enough away from Madoka's that Homura's okay with it acting as their 'prison', and not somewhere even farther. So long as the immigrants stay the fuck away from mitakihara high and to where Madoka lives, I think homura's okay with that arrangement.
Homura is massively irrational about Oriko. Oriko having an opportunity to recruit an army would not make her happy.
Doesn't need to be a hotel. We could find a few dormitories for girls (which are way cheaper than hotels yet should be adequate enough), and say they're there for cram school for the entrance exam to Mitakihara University or something.
We have to deal with people ranging from, like, nine to who-knows-how-old. And, again, we can find. Outsource.
Semi-converted warehouse >>>>>> living in the streets. And they're coming here mainly for the free cleansing, not for a vacation and expecting first-class treatment.
Dealing with people who are variously miserable and irate because of lack of first-class luxuries like functional plumbing will make our life much harder.
And IMO, all these are just temporary arrangements, until we a.) Develop artificial grief seeds/remote cleansing b.) Resolve enough of the urgent and important issues in our plate right now, so we can then have the time to deal with the housing issue.
We cannot count on either of these things happening in a useful timeframe.
And frankly, I think it's a bad investment to make something permanent right now, when we fully expect a city-buster witch to invade us in three weeks. And no, one-shotting Waluiginight is not a sure thing, so we have to expect extensive property damage to happen.
We'd be lucky to secure a property before WN if we started trying now. We aren't trying now, we're starting to find out how to approach the problem, in a hypotheticals-and-possibilities way, now. None of this makes the imperfect stopgaps unnecessary, it just means we won't have them turn into permanent solutions because we don't have the time to fix them personally and never get someone else to.
 
We really really do. We have to save the main characters if at all possible (those Sabrina loves) and fight the superpowerful thing that's coming for us.

Look, let me put it this way. I think that in the course of the quest and fucking up this thing, whatever it is, we will be given a chance to fuck up the incubators or at least make things better. If we're not, we still need to focus on us and ours, because I'm sorry, but I just cannot reconcile utilitarian ethics. Life, even a short life, can have good things, and that makes it worthwhile. We save those close to us, get stable, and then branch out. We can't help anyone if we get overwhelmed.

Again, I'm not utilitarian. I'm saying that until we've made witchouts impossible, it's impossible for us to save even a single meguca. At all.

Gotta agree with Madoka Gadjo on several levels here.

On a practical level, overreach is a real danger, and our friends are our only real supporting agents in our effort to save the world. If things with them fall apart, we've lost very important assets.

On a personal level, Sabrina isn't a fucking robot, she cares about her friends.

Caring about your friends is easy. Everyone does. There is nothing impressive about it. I hold Sabrina to a far higher standard. She cares about everyone.

And unless we figure out a way to deal with what's coming, we will be crushed and will have achieved nothing.

IMO, we can invest some heavy thinking on the long-term/macroscale issues once we've:
  • Gone past May 1 (aka. Wattaburgernight)
  • Found a decisive solution to the witchbomb (not necessarily de-witching)
  • Sufficiently impressed to Madoka that: Contract=horribad

Finding stuff to deal with the long-term stuff can help with the short term stuff.
 
I don't really get the whole housing problem.
They are coming to us and want something from us. So why exactly are we the ones that have to provide them a place to live?
They are coming from the other side of the world to Japan, most likely by plane, unless they know someone with a transportation power and you think they are unable to organize their own housing?
If they get to us and are looking for something long term sure we can help them find something, if they aren't assholes, but for the short term they should b able to do it on their own. Just because we cleanse their gems doesn't mean we have to taeke care of everything else for them, too.

I don't believe there will be an immediate influx of hopeful megucas. Right now Sabrina's existence should mostly be a slow spreading unconfirmed rumor about a girl that can contol grief.

Even if there were a whole lot of magical girls that want to meet us, they still need to clear some requirements:
  • They need to be able to get to Japan
  • They need to believe something that sounds to good to be true
  • Most importantly they need to have enough grief seeds and supplies to make the trip
  • If they aren't part of a group they also might not be able to leave their home territory, because other magical girls might steal it.
From what we've seen magical girls are highly territorial and as long as their home isn't safely secured I doubt many would leave it to chase after a dream.

Edit: Sorry, for ranting, but I parts of this thread and Sabrina both have to learn that they don't have to take care of everything on their own. The other magical girls aren't incompetent, if they survived long enough to hear about Sabrina and make it to Japan, so I think they should be competent enough to find their own lodgings.
 
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I don't really get the whole housing problem.
They are coming to us and want something from us. So why exactly are we the ones that have to provide them a place to live?
Because we actually care about their problems. There really doesn't need to be any other reason.

I don't believe there will be an immediate influx of hopeful megucas. Right now Sabrina's existence should mostly be a slow spreading unconfirmed rumor about a girl that can contol grief.
There are 20-30 magical girls who know we exist from the Sendai incident and the internet exists. Anyone who considers any of those people trustworthy enough to take their word for it might decide to seek us out and things will build up fast from there because anyone who chooses to investigate will get confirmation straight away.

From what we've seen magical girls are highly territorial and as long as their home isn't safely secured I doubt many would leave it to chase after a dream.
I expect the opposite, anyone whose home is secure has little incentive to chase a rumour but someone who's on the loosing end of a territory arrangement could easily decide they have no other choice.
 
Another thing is we don't have any permanent solutions yet. Unless they bring a whole bag of half-filled grief seeds along with them or plan to stay in Japan forever, regular cleanses aren't a good incentive to come over for a visit.

Remember these magical girls all still have lifes, family and friends. I doubt a lot of them would be willing to give all that up.
Just look at the University girls: they were extorted for over a year, but still stayed in Sendai, because of their family and non-meguca life. I think things would be similar for most normal magical girls. Things would be different , if we had a more permanent solution like handing out clear seeds.

Right now, the only ones that should flock to us are the desperate ones that have nothing to loose, curious ones who want to see what started the rumor and girls that already live close enough to us that we can cleanse them regularly.
 
I wouldn't say ALL of them. Kyouko probably isn't that rare of a situation, all things considered.
 
There are still going to be well over a hundred magical girls (and I wouldn't be surprised if it was over a thousand) who are desperate enough to move here and none of them are going to be able to get housing on their own. We will need to handle this and the process is long enough we need to get started on it ASAP.
 
I think Oriko would have said something, if there suddenly were hundreds of immigrnats showing up. We have exactly ONE confirmed immigrant from Europe so far. Why did an offhand comment by Oriko about one foreign magical girl spark all this need for immediate action?

It's not like anything really changed compared to before she said it.

Another thing to consider is the average age of magical girls. They are young teenagers about 14 or so and have no own money, no own means of travel and they most likely live with their parents or other relatives. They also need visa and passports to legally enter Japan.

I wouldn't say ALL of them. Kyouko probably isn't that rare of a situation, all things considered.
There probably are similar cases to Kyouko, but I think her case is extreme and should be rare in its severity.

[x] Gadjo
 
I think Oriko would have said something, if there suddenly were hundreds of immigrnats showing up. We have exactly ONE confirmed immigrant from Europe so far. Why did an offhand comment by Oriko about one foreign magical girl spark all this need for immediate action?
Because it's one person with exactly the rare power we need. That directly implies a larger number of people who don't have soul magic are also going to show up, and buying/renting real estate is slow enough that we would still need to start now even if we could stopgap until May.
 
Them not being incompetent isn't enough. The point is that they could do with the help.
 
Look, making the world a better place is all well and good, but it's all for naught if we don't save the few people we care deeply for. We aren't going to save the world in such sweeping ways over the course of the quest. We still need to deal with feathers first. Then we can play with saving the world.
And we're never going to make any useful changes beyond the people we care about if we don't get started. Again, I contest the idea that housing is something that can be set up quickly, which means we want to get started on it ahead of time if we're going to get anything of reasonable quality - and no, an abandoned warehouse with no amenities is not reasonable quality. If we're not going to do that now, when will we? Because to me the answer is looking an awful lot like the 'sometime' that, in practical terms, translates as 'too late'.
Just want to point out that housing is not an urgent issue. We actually have an existing option on where to house them. Oriko's (big-ass) house.
Point, but I'm pretty sure Homura would flip her shit over letting Oriko recruit an army. It's an option we could talk to Madoka about as part of this discussion though.
I really don't think gradually saving the world is the point of the quest, given the super powerful thing we don't even understand that we still have to fight.
The name of the quest is Puella Magi Adfligo Systema. Adfligo Systema = Strike Down [the] System. World-saving is implied.
Yeah, but we don't need to devote precious time and patience to little details.
For gods sake, we are not devoting precious time to the little details, we are wedding delegating this to someone who can help with using this to solve a personal problem. This is the exact opposite of an inefficient use of time!
I don't really get the whole housing problem.
They are coming to us and want something from us. So why exactly are we the ones that have to provide them a place to live?
Because we care about helping them, because if we can keep them in one place they'll be easier to deal with, and because if we present them with living quarters as a fait accompli they'll be more likely to take it, implicitly accepting our authority in the process.
 
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If more of them come, we may have to consider building that Meguca island...
 
What's the proposed plan to buy a house anyway? We may have money, but it's illegal Yakuza money.
Sabrina herself is a non-entity and noone in our group is old enough to buy or rent property.
Maybe Mami would know, but it's never even stated how exactly Mami got her appartment either.

The only real option to legally obtain a place to house foreign meguca would be to explain the whole magical girl business to an adult or become a very convincing liar, which would open up a whole new can of worms and problems to deal with.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against organizing housing, but I think this conversation isn't the place for it and I think it would be a bit premature to do anything without further information. We could always ask Oriko to elaborate after we go back to her house, once the lunch break is over.
 
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