FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
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Right, except Incubators are pathological defectors!
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Unrelated to this argument: the fact of the matter is, objectively, we'd be better off interrogating it on our terms about some specific things. Nothing to do with currying favor, just learning facts we have no other way to find out at this time.
Thanks to (mostly justified) paranoia though, that's not going to happen and we'll have QB drop any leftover bombs on us at a bad time/miss on potential plot points for now.
We need to interrogate it, but we can't trust it to answer the spirit of our questions- that makes it useless for any answer that it can't twist and we can find out by regular means.
Thanks to (mostly justified) paranoia though, that's not going to happen and we'll have QB drop any leftover bombs on us at a bad time/miss on potential plot points for now.
Some kind of grief cube is worth trying but I'm not hopeful.
We need to interrogate it, but we can't trust it to answer the spirit of our questions- that makes it useless for any answer that it can't twist and we can find out by regular means.
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Players have to deal with Kyuubey every time because there's not really another option. He's such a big part of the series that you really can't do something in the series without dealing with him in some way. He will make himself an issue if you don't go about it proactively.
Homura proved pretty conclusively in canon that killing him fully is basically impossible. Ergo players need to find something more creative than blowing him up more. We're not really the best at that.
Homura proved pretty conclusively in canon that killing him fully is basically impossible. Ergo players need to find something more creative than blowing him up more. We're not really the best at that.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Evidence? Rebellion isn't evidence, because Homura was very hostile towards the incubators and we have no reason to believe that behavior stopped post-madokami.
Choo Choo
THE GRIEF TRAIN HAS NO BRAKES
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It never lies, sure, but the truth it tells might not be the truth we hear. Technically accurate, and all that.
And dude, we don't know shit about how the wraiths are formed or what the grief cubes are. The wraiths are pretty much stand-in for whatever other monsters crop up.
No it won't. It'll do whatever is convenient for it, regardless of how many cookies you feed it.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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OH! Is that what you think I'm talking about? Don't worry, I know Kyuubey doesn't think in those terms. I'm talking about explicitly establishing a mutually beneficial system.
True. The important part is making hostile action inconvenient.
I stand by my statement.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
So as soon as it finds out that we can clean grief seeds and see magic, it'll kidnap us and imprison us and force us to draw pictures of magic flows and other such science? Even though FIrn said Oriko would be the main antagonist?
Loops
...
Episode 12? On the roof, Homura sits down and has a nice long chat with Kyubey about the time loops, while feeding it cubes. She lets him ride down to the ground on her shoulder. ... I'm not sure what more you want.
We can't give it enough of a carrot to stop it from wanting Witches. We can't trust it to uphold any agreement based on enlightened self-interest, and we definitely can't get on its "good side". Anything beyond "pet the Incubator when Mami's watching" goes from "useless" to "please kill me somehow to fill the energy quota".
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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If you can't trust something that never lies, you don't know how to ask questions.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I'm sorry, but is there any evidence that we can stop people from witching on a wide scale? Madokami stopped witches the universe over, we can probably max out at one city on one planet in a backwater part of a pissant galaxy.
If you assume that Kyuubey will fuck you over at the first opportunity, and proceed accordingly, then of course he'll do it.
FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
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You're assuming that has any value to it.
How is using distorted, incomplete information to secure a contract that'd end the world not hostility right out of the gate? Y'know, like in the very first post:
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Answers can never be manipulated.
Half truths obviously don't exist.
You totally can't hide some important pieces of information to suit your own purposes.
Kyubey isn't manipulative or wants witches at all.
Your thinking is the kind of thinking that makes GMs like me very happy.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Kyuubey has repeatedly mentioned that the Inqubators have a woefully insufficient understanding of how magic works. Being able to get a better handle on how magic works would be immensely valuable to them.
Kyuubey has no idea that Madoka will end the world when she witches. He says so in the "I don't care, I met quota" sequence where she did.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I think all of this falls under "knowing how to ask questions".
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I like how you somehow think that "main antagonist" means "only antagonist."
And no. That's not what anyone's saying, aranfan. It's that messing with coobs is a fuckstupid idea. In general.
esvee soshul judo mastah. it well protekt u forevah. dis tiem well b difrant Are you fuckin' serious?
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Kyubey has such enormously superior resources that if we do give him adequate cause to destroy us, or kidnap us for science, we can't do shit. If he is an antagonist, then given our abilities, he will almost certainly be primary by default.
I don't propose messing with Kyubey. I propose not acting unrelentingly hostile to him.
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WIth the exception of witch quest, every PMMM quest I have seen has had us be unrelentingly hostile. And in all of those quests, Kyubey has been incredibly obstructive towards us. It could well be different, if we do things different. The relevant action isn't interacting with kyuubey, it's acting as if Kyuubey WILL dick us over as a matter of course and cannot be trusted at all.
I am sick and fucking tired of defaulting to hostile towards kyuubey. Maybe if we don't, he'll act different towards us? Maybe?
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Euryale
Lurk me do.
To Kyu-operate or not to Kyu-operate depends a lot on how the GM writes him - some people make Kyubey a nicer incubators than others (or rather, less manipulative), and it could very well be that our way of collecting grief becomes a win win situation. However, at its emotionless little heart, Kyubey only wants one thing, and if we threaten his plans (let's say if our grief can't be used by him and we start making less people witch out) he'll most likely try to stop us (just look at what he told Kyouko in episode 9 to get her out of the way). And even if it's somehow possible that we can collect grief and give it to him, if he doesn't make as much energy from our way (which, I'm assuming our way means that Madoka won't witch out) then he'll try to stop us.
The best case scenario is that no one witches out and Kyubey keeps up his quota, which may give us an advantage as we could use him as a look out and perhaps as an obstacle for Oriko or anyone else.
The worst case scenario is that we can't give collected grief to Kyubey, and so he sees us as an obsiticle and starts helping Oriko and/or other enemies to eliminate us.
All in all, we're going to have to face him sooner or later, but I don't think we should offer to help as there's a chance of the worst case scenario and perhaps even experiments (think Rebellion) if we prove too usesful. Though we also shouldn't act hostile to him unless he tries to pull something - if he find out we're actively screwing with his plan, he'll prove to be a massive pain in the arse later.
The best case scenario is that no one witches out and Kyubey keeps up his quota, which may give us an advantage as we could use him as a look out and perhaps as an obstacle for Oriko or anyone else.
The worst case scenario is that we can't give collected grief to Kyubey, and so he sees us as an obsiticle and starts helping Oriko and/or other enemies to eliminate us.
All in all, we're going to have to face him sooner or later, but I don't think we should offer to help as there's a chance of the worst case scenario and perhaps even experiments (think Rebellion) if we prove too usesful. Though we also shouldn't act hostile to him unless he tries to pull something - if he find out we're actively screwing with his plan, he'll prove to be a massive pain in the arse later.
FlatlineAskari
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Does not necessarily follow. Didn't need understanding to extract everything they wanted from Earth.
Besides which, total disregard for humanity in general and us in particular. What part of giving them high-level comprehension of magic sounds like a good idea?
He was expecting an unprecedented Witch. The details are immaterial.
Honestly Kyuubey shouldn't be our primary concern at this point. We can't really do anything to stop him. Homura with infinite tries couldn't do anything to stop him. How he plays out is essentially GM fiat. It basically boils down to how the GM writes our powers interacting with entropy.
Maybe down the line with more magical girls in our party we can do something about him, but I doubt it.
Maybe down the line with more magical girls in our party we can do something about him, but I doubt it.
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So we just have to accept the fact that Kyubey actively wants girls to witch out, trust that he won't ruin things for the sake of meeting an energy quota despite the fact that it's his fucking point, and that his system hasn't been running for hundreds of thousands of years on a principle that benefits when magical girls self-destruct into despairmonsters.
Yeah okay what the fuck ever guy. It's one thing of being hostile towards him is irrational. That would make being annoyed and hateful of him worthy of being tiresome.
This is something different. This is a totally rational hatred and fear of something that will want you to witch out to fill a certain energy quota and wants Madoka to contract.
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Hyacinthium
Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.
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Huh. What about any of mine?
I don't even. Are you trolling?
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
First, I would like to note that due to FIrn saying Sabrina will basically act how the thread acts, she's going to have a massive panic attack and internal argument about how to deal with Kyuubey.
Systemically, yes, however that does not preclude him not trying to fuck us over in particular. For instance he has made no particular effort to screw over Mami even though he easily could at any point.
Being hostile to Kyuubey is not rational until he makes some particular effort to screw us over, before that it's entirely possible for him to be not obstructive. For him to be helpful and give us intel.
Homura has shot Kyuubey for stress relief. If anyone other than Walpurgis was her enemy in the loops it was Kyuubey. Homura does not like Kyuubey. We have no reason to believe this sort of thing stopped just because Homura told Kyuubey about someone no one could remember when she thought he couldn't do anything about it.
Systemically, yes, however that does not preclude him not trying to fuck us over in particular. For instance he has made no particular effort to screw over Mami even though he easily could at any point.
Being hostile to Kyuubey is not rational until he makes some particular effort to screw us over, before that it's entirely possible for him to be not obstructive. For him to be helpful and give us intel.
Homura has shot Kyuubey for stress relief. If anyone other than Walpurgis was her enemy in the loops it was Kyuubey. Homura does not like Kyuubey. We have no reason to believe this sort of thing stopped just because Homura told Kyuubey about someone no one could remember when she thought he couldn't do anything about it.
Out of curiosity given you're on the player side of this equation for once. How do you think we should handle this situation with Kyuubey? I mean he is going to be a major part of the events to follow and you don't want to try diplomacy. So what is the other option?
Basically the way I see it Kyuubey is a no-win scenario for us. We certainly can't win a war with him. If we can't diplomance him either, what is our next option?
I genuinely don't see a course of action that results in long term survival against him in this situation, let alone thriving in the long term, if our magics reduce his energy gain.
Basically the only way I see this working out for us is if our grief manipulation is in total a net energy gain or neutral for his efforts, including even the prevention of witches in the equation. Which is fairly possible given that there's so little known about how the situation. Even then there'd be the possibility that he'd want to experiment on us for the possibility of improving their system similar to the reason for the incubators efforts to capture Madokami.
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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Would Kyuubey care if she kept shooting it for stress relief?