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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Sereg said:
I ... disagree? Not much to say here. Homura's entire personality has degraded to nothing but a core held together by determination to save Madoka which has become the thing she's centered her very life around. When that's threatened, she reacts very badly and goes murderface or Homucifer and if she loses hope, she rapidly spirals so that she went from almost empty to almost full in seconds.
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Whereas everyone else just dies, once, forever. Her friends, her allies, her enemies, the city, the world, and she keeps going.
Gadjo said:
Look man, what good can you see coming from alienating Homura? Because she's gonna go around behind our backs and do what she wants to do, and we will no longer have an influence on her.
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She needs us a lot more than she dislikes Oriko.
 
[X] Ask Homura to at least hear you out. If she still doesn't want them leaving afterward, then they won't be leaving.
[X] First of all, you would be keeping their soul gems on you in case they did anything.
-[X] Oriko isn't exactly in a good position to pull something since the only reason she isn't completely subdued with pain is because of your power which you could easily remove.
[X] You wouldn't let them leave your sight or just run wild, and you definitely wouldn't let them anywhere near the school or the others.
[X]And she isn't faking it. She was almost insentient from the pain and honestly looked like half a corpse while Kirika was stressing out. Oriko had even tried to keep you in the dark about it out of pride.
-[X] And you had checked her soul gem which looked like her power was looping on itself, while your's and Kirika's soul gem looked normal. You think that at least going outside and doing something even for a little bit could really help her. As long as she's like this, her precognition is pretty much out.
-[X] If they had some plan on escaping or coming up with some ambush, then there's nothing stopping them from implementing it from inside their home.
[X] You know how she feels about them, and you wouldn't be suggesting this if you couldn't keep them check or if it wasn't completely serious.
[X] They are dangerous and can't be completely trusted but you can't just leave them alone like this. And it wouldn't be particularly wise to anyway.
[X] If Homura still says no, then just drop it and tell them you'll keep them inside and find some other way to help her then.
[X] Tell Oriko and Kirika the news, whatever it is.

It doesn't exactly help matters that we aren't speaking to Homura alone and in person.

Aranfan said:
Gonna point out that we don't actually know if the ring will disappear if we leave range. It's witch stuff, not mere grief.
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Witch stuff is grief. Remember how the healing rod's effects would apparently stop working if we went out of range?
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
Indeed. I propose:

[] "Okay, but hear me out; if you don't change your mind afterwards, I'll follow your decision."
[] Firstly, I know she isn't faking. I have hard evidence she can't fake, and she doesn't have the skill to inflict this on herself. My scans of her soul gem also show that something is seriously wrong with her magic, and she doesn't have the skill to deliberately create the effect, assuming that would even be possible.
[] I'd be taking precautions:
-[] I'll keep both Oriko's and Kirika's soul gems in your pocket at all times.
-[] The moment your ability to subdue them is compromised, the ring that blocks Oriko's pain and allows her to even function would disappear. Furthermore, we already tried the technique for disconnecting Oriko from her body's sense of pain--it didn't work.
-[] I'll keep both in front of me and in sight at all times.
-[] I already know what both of their combat capabilities are, and I'd keep enough Grief to fight with at the ready.
[] Oriko is in no condition to actively use her precognition anyway.
[] If I left them here, it would still leave the problem of Oriko's extreme pain, which is bad enough to make her body look like it's suffering lethal radiation poisoning. She honestly looked like she was dying.
[] Once school gets out, Mami could accompany us. Would that alleviate your concerns somewhat?
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Agent Whiskers said:
[] Ask Homura to at least hear you out. If she still doesn't want them leaving afterward, then they won't be leaving.
[] You already know that they are dangerous and you won't be taking your eyes off them for a second.
-[] Your certain that you can take them both in a fight, if you had to. The only reason Oriko isn't crippled from the pain is because your using your power on her, and you also have a contingency for Kirika.
-[] You would also be keeping their soul gems with you, which you could detonate almost instantly with flicker of your power.
[] And she isn't faking it. She was almost insentient from the pain and honestly looked like half a corpse while Kirika was stressing out. It wouldn't be right to just leave them like this.
-[] And you had checked her soul gem which looked like her power was looping on itself, while your's and Kirika's soul gem looked normal. You think that at least going outside and doing something even for a little bit could really help her.
[] If they had some plan on escaping or coming up with some ambush, then they could have easily done it from inside their house. And you wouldn't just let them run wild outside.
[] If Homura still says no, then just drop it and tell them you'll keep them inside and find some other way to help her then.
[] Tell Oriko and Kirika the news, whatever it is.

I really don't know if this would be at all convincing. But still feels like we should make some kind of effort. Think I'll try and come up with something better later.
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I'll try to streamline and... make it a little more personal.

[X] Homura, hear me out, please? If I can't convince you and Mami, then that's that, but can I talk?
[X] Oriko is not just in pain. She's really hurting, she looked like a corpse when I got here, she can't fake this... Her Soul Gem, her soul, it's wrong. It's destroying her from the inside. If I leave...
-[X] I understand they are dangerous. I get that. But so am I. I can take them, I won't be taking my eyes off them for a second; I'm prepared for treachery; Oriko's wearing a magical ring with properties of my choosing, which I can change on a whim; I can leave Kirika behind; I can take their Soul Gems, even.
--[X] If they try to backstab me... they won't succeed. I promise.
-[X] I'm afraid. If I leave her... she'll die. And that's on me.
 
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[]Okay.
-[]But then we're going to have a problem today because I can't go more than one hundred meters away from her without things going wrong again. I'm going to have to stay at Oriko's and try and figure out how to fix this before lunch.
-[]I can't leave her to just be in pain with her own magic trying to kill her. That isn't good for anyone.
-[]...I'll try and figure something out. See you guys at lunch, I hope.
[]Ask Oriko and Kirika if they mind if we have our meeting with Masami at their house.


Overriding Homu's objection is a bad, bad, bad idea here.

Plan B: take Oriko's soul gem with us? Ask Masami to swing by Oriko's house instead.

EDIT: Yeah, no, the permanent grief ring just won't work. Sabrina realityhax breaks down after 100 meters no matter what. You'll need a different solution here.

For now,


[X] Homura, hear me out, please? If I can't convince you and Mami, then that's that, but can I talk?
[X] Oriko is not just in pain. She's really hurting, she looked like a corpse when I got here, she can't fake this... Her Soul Gem, her soul, it's wrong. It's destroying her from the inside. If I leave...
-[X] I understand they are dangerous. I get that. But so am I. I can take them, I won't be taking my eyes off them for a second; I'm prepared for treachery; Oriko's wearing a magical ring with properties of my choosing, which I can change on a whim; I can leave Kirika behind; I can take their Soul Gems, even.
--[X] If they try to backstab me... they won't succeed. I promise.
-[X] I'm afraid. If I leave her... she'll die. And that's on me.
 
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Ugolino said:
Yeah, no, the permanent grief ring just won't work. Sabrina realityhax breaks down after 100 meters no matter what. You'll need a different solution here.
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I'll say again that we could still try making a construct that makes an item that does what we want. We've already established that things done to existing matter by grief doesn't just 'undo' when we get out of range.
 
Onmur said:
A healing specialist would be Yuma (Hell no!) or Rin. Not Masami.
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...Right. Well, we should call Rin and see if we can hire her to take a look at Oriko.
CapnQwerty said:
I'll say again that we could still try making a construct that makes an item that does what we want. We've already established that things done to existing matter by grief doesn't just 'undo' when we get out of range.
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The answer is probably "grief-bending refuses to make certain kinds of fabricators" but we should confirm that.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
Whereas everyone else just dies, once, forever. Her friends, her allies, her enemies, the city, the world, and she keeps going.
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A result of luck of learning the important stuff early and experience.

She needs us a lot more than she dislikes Oriko.
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Does she know that? I'm not convinced. Not when she's in her more emotional states at least.

[x] Onmur

Sounds good.

I still want to try the tests I mentioned though.
 
Why is everyone so interested in making the ring permanent? We have no clue how Oriko's condition might progress. We have to assume she could get seriously worse today until we know otherwise. If her condition doesn't worsen throughout today, then we'll have enough justified confidence in her life expectancy to make the pain-blocking ring worth as much discussion as it's getting.
 
Ugolino said:
And I'll say that it likely won't work based on precedent with phasers.
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So? Nail it down, then. We cannot do anything useful with grief artifacts without getting into a habit of checking the things we think are true and false. We'll be stuck in a loop of perpetual hesitancy and cluelessness followed by Hail Marys every once in a while.

I routinely use things that come with user manuals that I trust less than the level of confidence to not check stuff like this.

I'm wondering if designated science votes might be a bad idea. We really don't benefit much from the amount of in-story time Sabrina spends on science. Rather, we benefit on the update count. Suppose instead we were to start testing one simple thing with every update. That would be a much more effective way to do science.
 
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Ugolino said:
[X] Homura, hear me out, please? If I can't convince you and Mami, then that's that, but can I talk?
[X] Oriko is not just in pain. She's really hurting, she looked like a corpse when I got here, she can't fake this... Her Soul Gem, her soul, it's wrong. It's destroying her from the inside. If I leave...
-[X] I understand they are dangerous. I get that. But so am I. I can take them, I won't be taking my eyes off them for a second; I'm prepared for treachery; Oriko's wearing a magical ring with properties of my choosing, which I can change on a whim; I can leave Kirika behind; I can take their Soul Gems, even.
--[X] If they try to backstab me... they won't succeed. I promise.
-[X] I'm afraid. If I leave her... she'll die. And that's on me.
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This feels similar to our last approach. Granted, we're in different situation here. But it's also a little melodramatic. I seriously doubt that she would actually die.
 
Ugolino said:
And I'll say that it likely won't work based on precedent with phasers.
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We shot energy based phaser and laser gun. It likely shot grief concepted to look and act like phaser/laser fire respectively. This doesn't really show the results of Grief Concept equipment manipulating real matter into a different format/shape/use (IE the rosebush test).

Spicier-Angel said:
So? Nail it down, then. We cannot do anything useful with grief artifacts without getting into a habit of checking the things we think are true and false.
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Exactly. Way too much extrapolation based on shaky facts and an unwillingness to nail down principles.


This is a difficult situation. I still don't know how/where I want to vote. Mhmm
 
Agent Whiskers said:
This feels similar to our last approach. Granted, we're in different situation here. But it's also a little melodramatic. I seriously doubt that she would actually die.
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I don't know melodrama.

I actually do think she might die if she's left for long like this.

'The walls closing in', her predictions of her own death, and she really got really, really bad in a matter of hours. The headache started before yesterday night, but it was after we left that it really started. It's been something like 10 hours and she's like this.

Oriko looks bad. The seer's skin is usually pale, but now... it's almost ashen. All the translucent pallor of a corpse - you can see the veins under her skin as she lies, nearly motionless on the bed. Only the slow rise and fall of her chest indicates that she's still alive. Her hand is clutched in Kirika's and at a guess, she's gripping back with just as much force as Kirika is.
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Onmur said:
I don't know melodrama.

I actually do think she might die if she's left for long like this.

'The walls closing in', her predictions of her own death, and she really got really, really bad in a matter of hours. The headache started before yesterday night, but it was after we left that it really started. It's been something like 10 hours and she's like this.
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Does she absolutely need to go outside? And if she does, you guys actually need to explain that properly instead of just relying on the emotional approach.

Seriously, Homura kind of hates and is rather paranoid of her. We really shouldn't underestimate the depths of those feelings, again.
 
Agent Whiskers said:
This feels similar to our last approach. Granted, we're in different situation here. But it's also a little melodramatic. I seriously doubt that she would actually die.
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I...really don't. It really would explain why she felt her death was inevitable no matter what we do- we've never seen someone's magic selfdestructing and the results are clearly bad even at this early stage.
 
Onmur said:
I actually do think she might die if she's left for long like this.

'The walls closing in', her predictions of her own death, and she really got really, really bad in a matter of hours. The headache started before yesterday night, but it was after we left that it really started. It's been something like 10 hours and she's like this.
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Yes! This is exactly why I don't think the permanent pain-blocking ring is useful at the moment. Wait for a sign that she's likely to live long enough for our continued presence as a nurse to be problematic.
Agent Whiskers said:
Does she absolutely need to go outside? And if she does, you guys actually need to explain that properly instead of just relying on the emotional approach.
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I don't really think it's worthwhile at this point, given the cost to proposing this to Homura.
 
Spicier-Angel said:
Why is everyone so interested in making the ring permanent? We have no clue how Oriko's condition might progress. We have to assume she could get seriously worse today until we know otherwise. If her condition doesn't worsen throughout today, then we'll have enough justified confidence in her life expectancy to make the pain-blocking ring worth as much discussion as it's getting.
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So that at the very least, Oriko isn't suffering.You know, like how people take pain killers even though it doesn't fix the cause of the pain.

EDIT: If Oriko is dying, then the least we owe her is trying t make her death as painless and comfortable as possible. (I mean, yeah, I want to save her, but there are degrees of failure here. Having all our fiddling result in her having a horrifyingly painful death is something I want to avoid)
 
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Ugolino said:
...Uh, Spicier? Her dying would be a major problem and one we kind of want to do anything and everything to stop.
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Sereg said:
So that at the very least, Oriko isn't suffering.You know, like how people take pain illers even though it doesn't fix the cause of the pain.
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Uh guys, I'm pretty sure she meant that instead of just blocking the pain we need to instead try to find/fix the issue. Keep the temp ring, forget about making it permanent since if that succeeds, she might still die. Direct our efforts elsewhere basically.

We will likely be here for another 3 hours or till lunch.

Spicier-Angel said:
Wait for a sign that she's likely to live long enough for our continued presence as a nurse to be problematic.
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This line in particular. Basicly if we can make it so it looks like she ISN'T going to die, then we can worry about making something permanent for pain/whatever when us, not playing nursemaid and remaining here, might then become a problem.
 
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Ugolino said:
I...really don't. It really would explain why she felt her death was inevitable no matter what we do- we've never seen someone's magic selfdestructing and the results are clearly bad even at this early stage.
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While I'm not sure if my vote would even work, I get the feeling that Onmur's definitely won't. The tone feels kind of... naive? I don't know. Just feels off, but that could just be nitpicky personal preference.

Besides, I'm pretty sure she can still see the future right now and would know if this would kill her. She certainly isn't acting like she would.

We're probably going to have to properly talk with Homura later. About what exactly she is thinking in regards of what do with them later. Is she planning on keeping them in there forever?
 
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