Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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Gadjo
Doka
Still don't see how that calms her down or keeps her from killing Oriko and bestbuddy. You know what would make Homura more comfortable? Killing them. Since we don't want to do that, we should leave.
[X] Okay, well, I think we know all we can figure out at this point. All that's left is to go save Sayaka.
[X] Say goodbye to Oriko and Kirika, and ask Mami to withdraw her ribbon.
[x] Check Sayaka's home first.
-[X] Assuming we don't find her there, head off towards the industrial district, find the witch, and start looking for Sayaka around the barrier, then inside.
We're done here. Staying longer will just tweak Homura off more, and Oriko's already hit the point where she's answering our questions by all but throwing her hands up in the air and shouting that she doesn't know.
That said, I like the idea of checking up on Sayaka's house first, since we don't have any clue what, exactly, is up with Oriko's visions right now. Timestop means the detour doesn't cost us any time, Homura might like to see us acting on her information before Oriko's, and it's best to rule Sayaka's house out before jumping into a witch's barrier without being sure she's even in there.
...even though I'm guessing Sayaka's not at home.
[X] Say goodbye to Oriko and Kirika, and ask Mami to withdraw her ribbon.
[x] Check Sayaka's home first.
-[X] Assuming we don't find her there, head off towards the industrial district, find the witch, and start looking for Sayaka around the barrier, then inside.
We're done here. Staying longer will just tweak Homura off more, and Oriko's already hit the point where she's answering our questions by all but throwing her hands up in the air and shouting that she doesn't know.
That said, I like the idea of checking up on Sayaka's house first, since we don't have any clue what, exactly, is up with Oriko's visions right now. Timestop means the detour doesn't cost us any time, Homura might like to see us acting on her information before Oriko's, and it's best to rule Sayaka's house out before jumping into a witch's barrier without being sure she's even in there.
...even though I'm guessing Sayaka's not at home.
[X] Okay, well, I think we know all we can figure out at this point. All that's left is to go save Sayaka.
[X] Say goodbye to Oriko and Kirika, and ask Mami to withdraw her ribbon.
[x] Check Sayaka's home first.
-[X] Assuming we don't find her there, head off towards the industrial district, find the witch, and start looking for Sayaka around the barrier, then inside.
[X] Say goodbye to Oriko and Kirika, and ask Mami to withdraw her ribbon.
[x] Check Sayaka's home first.
-[X] Assuming we don't find her there, head off towards the industrial district, find the witch, and start looking for Sayaka around the barrier, then inside.
Homura doesn't actually want to kill Oriko or Kirika. She's just stressed out and not thinking straight. My plan is the following:
First: Ask Homura about Madoka in order to calm her down by reminding her that Madoka is safe.
Second: Show the feather in order to give weight to Oriko's claims so that Homura cannot dismiss them out of hand. This doesn't present any new information, since we already told them about the feather, but showing it does gives extra weight.
Third: Give Homura the choice of whether the extra information is worth the stress. I want the information that Oriko has, but I recognize that Homura's in a bit of a spot right now. This is the best I can come up with. At worst Homura will just say that we need to leave now and then it's no worse than the bandwagon vote. And at best we get some important information.
Gadjo
Doka
For simplicity's sake, my vote now looks like this:
[] Okay, well, I think we know all we can figure out at this point. All that's left is to go save Sayaka.
[] Say goodbye to Oriko and Kirika, and ask Mami to withdraw her ribbon.
[] Check Sayaka's home first.
-[] Assuming we don't find her there, head off towards the industrial district, find the witch, and start looking for Sayaka around the barrier, then inside.
Eh. I don't think going to her house helps us any, but I suppose it also doesn't hurt.
3: It really doesn't though. It just kind of keeps asking questions and not leaving which will frustrate her. Worst case she leaves even angrier than she already is.
2 I don't really have an intense opinion on. Don't frankly care about that right now.
[] Okay, well, I think we know all we can figure out at this point. All that's left is to go save Sayaka.
[] Say goodbye to Oriko and Kirika, and ask Mami to withdraw her ribbon.
[] Check Sayaka's home first.
-[] Assuming we don't find her there, head off towards the industrial district, find the witch, and start looking for Sayaka around the barrier, then inside.
Eh. I don't think going to her house helps us any, but I suppose it also doesn't hurt.
1: that also reminds her that the person we're asking her to trust killed Madoka before.
3: It really doesn't though. It just kind of keeps asking questions and not leaving which will frustrate her. Worst case she leaves even angrier than she already is.
2 I don't really have an intense opinion on. Don't frankly care about that right now.
Muramasa
Best Girl
Homura wants the fuck out of there yesterday. We can talk feathers again after Sayaka's saved and Homura has the chance to calm down and even before that, we need to talk to Homura and reconfirm we are here to see her through this loop and save Madoka because I really think that message has been getting more lost in the Oriko and Feathers clusterfuckery.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
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- He/Him
1) Go ahead, bring up Madoka and Madoka's safety to Homura right in front of Oriko and Kirika. I dare you.
2) We can do this at a later time, whether or not Kirika and Oriko are present. It's not ideal, but considering the circumstances, it's vastly preferable.
3) Homura isn't in a "bit of a spot" right now. She's either PTSD-triggered or fighting it, with a loaded gun in her twitching hand. It's not just Kirika and Oriko's presence that's setting her off, either: it's having them both in timestop with her, with neither of them restrained or even having any weapons trained on them, which means her instinctive failsafe of instantly timestopping at the first sign of trouble is completely unavailable, which in itself freaks her out.
4) Let's not forget that Mami is also in a pretty poor psychological place right now, so taking our time to probe Oriko's visions like a scientist is even more of a bad idea at the moment.
Kai Merah
Hound Hearted Hedonist
- Location
- Somewhere in the corners of my imagination
Yes she does. She really, really does. She was never friends with Oriko or Kirika in any timeline as far as I know. They are nothing but potential threats to Madoka. She's only tolerating their presence because Sabrina insists on it. She stopped killing Oriko and Kirika every loop at some point only because they didn't appear to contract again, and she had better things to do to protect Madoka. But now that they have contracted, every instinct of hers is screaming at her to kill them.
First: Asking Homura about Madoka does not remind her Madoka is safe. It reminds her Madoka is still potentially in danger. From Oriko. And possibly whatever kidnapped Sayaka. And from Sayaka herself dying/contracting, because Sayaka dying/contracting might lead Madoka to contract.
Second: Not the time when Homura is this stressed out. It's like we're trying to push our belief of Oriko's trustworthiness on Homura when she's already tense and ready to snap. Later, when Sayaka is safe and we can point out that Oriko's information led to Sayaka being safe, then we can start reinforcing the idea of Oriko's trustworthiness.
Third: ...Homura clearly, clearly wants to leave. This is like asking someone hyperventilating if they want to calm down. The answer might be yes, but she's not going to be able to think rationally about it or actually do it until she does actually calm down.
It's not like Homura has ever forgotten that Oriko killed Madoka. That is the reason she's on edge right now. Bringing up the topic of Madoka's safety will not suddenly cause her to remember why she's angry at Oriko because she never forgot in the first place. However, it might assuage some of Homura's fears by reminding her that Madoka is safe right now.
I agree that Homura is not stable right now ("a bit of a spot" was intentional understatement to reinforce the point). The point of showing the feather is to get Homura into focusing on something other than Oriko for a second to remember the reason that Oriko is useful. If she can't achieve that distance, then her twitchiness shows that she needs to leave now before she does something that everyone will regret. But I would like Homura to make that call.
Asking Oriko what happened in her vision for the express purpose of saving Sayaka does not count as "probing it like a scientist". It may be unwise to do so in order to prevent Homura from exploding, but for Sayaka's safety it would be better if we could ask Oriko to describe her vision.
Deciding to take the life of a fellow human being is not easy. Homura claims to not be human any more. She claims that her only goal is to save Madoka and that she doesn't care about anything else and that she would be willing and happy to do anything to accomplish that goal. But that's a lie. The fact that Oriko and Kirika are still alive shows that. We were able to persuade her not to kill them in the first place and it wasn't even that hard. And we completely failed to convince her that Oriko was worth saving when we talked to her last night and worse, we made her worry that Sabrina is being unduly influenced. And yet Oriko is still alive. Homura wants to protect Madoka, and she is willing to kill in order to achieve that goal, but it is not her first resort. Oriko stresses Homura out, but Homura would still prefer to save Madoka without killing Oriko if that is at all possible.
Homura is always aware that Madoka is in danger and she is vividly aware of the danger that she thinks that Oriko poses. Bringing up Madoka's safety will not change that, but it might calm her somewhat to remember that Madoka is safe for now so that she can focus instead on the immediate threat on Sayaka.
If you're right and Homura can't think rationally about this, then asking her to make the decision would result in the instinctive response of "go now". In that case, would it better for us to decide for her, or would it be better if we let her make the choice?
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Jesus christ, can we please atleast just separate Homura from this situation? It's super fucking ruining her mental state. She needs to go, regardless of what we need, and Sabrina has a super bad problem with putting people's wellbeing second before her own fucking convenience. Let's fix that, starting right now, because Homura is pretty much the one person we will never, ever, EVER get a do-over with.
Kai Merah
Hound Hearted Hedonist
- Location
- Somewhere in the corners of my imagination
I am interpreting that as less 'Homura is unwilling to kill Oriko' and more 'Homura is willing to go against her own instinct to kill Oriko because she still trusts and hopes in us that much'. Or she's just that desperate. Nothing she's done has saved Madoka so far. Then we show up. We're doing better than she ever has. For all she knows, we may never show up in a loop again. So, for this loop at least, it's best to go along with our plan. If it fails, she still has the rest of eternity to get it right. But of course, she does not want to spend the rest of eternity constantly watching Madoka die, so she really, really, really wants us to get it right.
I am not saying Homura is someone who wants people to die. I am saying Homura is a scarred combat veteran who's first instinct is to shoot threats, but is willing to consider that her instincts might be wrong in this case if we tell her so. Because results speak for themselves and we're getting better results than she ever has. She may not want Oriko to die, but... If a lion is charging right at you and you have a gun in your hand, you shoot. It's that simple. Unless you've got a lion tamer friend right next to you saying 'don't shoot, don't shoot!'. But if the lion tamer friend was silent on the issue or just not there...
Err, I'm going to have to disagree with this. A threat to Sayaka is, in a certain sense, a threat to Madoka. To her contracting anyway, if not her life. I believe reminding her of Madoka at this point is counter-productive. Asking someone like Homura 'Is Madoka safe?' is an invitation for her to run through every possible way Madoka might not be safe at this present time. Homura's thoughts would go something like "Did I miss anything? I saw Madoka safely home, but then, Sayaka was supposed to be safe at home too, any other variations to the timeline that can threaten Madoka? (Besides Oriko, not allowed to go after Oriko/Kirika threat right now) What else, what else, I can't have missed something, did I miss something, Sayaka is in danger, she can't be allowed to make Madoka contract, please don't let that fucking Incubator make Sayaka contract, if Sayaka witches out, should I put her down before Madoka realises, Mami is here, oh god I hope I don't have to shoot Mami again..."
...She's all but screaming that she wants to go right now. Asking her to verbalize it seems rather... redundant.
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- Location
- South Africa
@booneruner: You're asking about useful information to have, but it isn't useful enough to justify the cost of getting it. And yes, everything we do has a cost. This is costing us Homura's patience, which is something we cannot afford. We know enough to deal with anything else
[x] Silver
[x] Silver
FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
- Location
- Elsewhere
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- Any
I'd suggest that - after we leave Oriko but before we move to engage - we point out that, while we really don't think Oriko's faking this, that doesn't mean she's right. If something can interfere with her visions, it could be a trap, for her or for us.
PhantomFractions
I can (not) type fast enough
- Location
- Australia
[x] Silver
[x] Silver
This is more or less what I mean when I say that "Homura doesn't want to kill Oriko". To be quite honest, I was seriously worried for Oriko's safety after our conversation with Homura yesterday, but fortunately, Homura had enough control of herself to not act in violence then.
-------
The consensus of the votes is that we will leave now without trying to find out any more information from Oriko. But let's consider how we should think about this meeting so that we don't leave on the wrong note:
Homura hates and distrusts Oriko and she wanted the meeting to be over before it even started. And yet she allowed the meeting to take place anyway (despite her misgivings and the inevitable stress). And although the meeting was stressful, it didn't even make the top one hundred list of the most stressful situations that Homura has faced (every fight with Walpurgisnacht was much worse, for instance). Presumably, Homura allowed the meeting to take place because she knew that Oriko's information could be useful, and if the information given to us by Oriko allows us to save Sayaka, then that will be proven true. Oriko and Homura didn't enjoy their interaction, but they did work together. Ultimately, that's a step in the right direction.
Moving on: how should we handle the witch? Most witch fights thus far have been fairly easy, and if timestop works properly, then it will be even easier than normal. But from a narrative standpoint, it's unlikely that saving Sayaka and defeating the witch will be easy (we know that Oriko's distress is not just because her visions changed but also because the new visions showed something distressing, even if we don't know the particulars). So what problems might happen?
1. Homura's time stop doesn't work as expected. Perhaps due to "Feathers" interference or because of an anti-magic property specific to Elsa Maria (note that in PMMM, Sayaka beat it with brute force).
2. We save Sayaka's life, but she's traumatized by the event, to the point of seriously considering contracting.
3. Elsa Maria was just a distraction. Something else happens elsewhere (perhaps to Madoka or to Ono).
Does anyone have ideas for what other problems might crop up, or what we can due to mitigate them?
Not exactly. If Elsa Maria had an anti-magic property, Sayaka's regen/efficient healing wouldn't have been active and she would have died horribly.
Here's what happened when we fought Aurora:
Mami calls Time slowing fields "rare" but they are common enough for Mami to have heard of them and we know of at least two examples: Aurora and Margot
And other types of anti-magic fields that would prevent Time-stop but not eliminate Sayaka's healing are also possible.
Or "Feathers" could have given Elsa Maria an upgrade.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Mami's a veteran meguca. These things must be quite rare indeed if Mami's only heard of them until now.
My point is that there are narrative reasons to suspect that the witch fight will not be easy. And there are a number of different effects that would prevent Homura's time-stop from working.